PERSONAL SECURITY IN YOUR R.V.:

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Ray D

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There are a few threads already going, related to this. However, my thoughts do not respond directly to the questions asked in those threads. So, I'm starting a new thread. The subject of this thread is the "risk of victimization" and "what to do about it."

Firstly, I am not a lawyer. Don?t take anything I say as legal advice. I am hoping to get some responses from others, agreeing and disagreeing with my opinions, but don?t take their comments as legal advice, either. I?d be a pretty good ?Jail House Lawyer.? And, the correct legal advice changes with the ticking of the clock and the changing digits on your GPS.


Secondly, I am not an RV expert. I came here looking for advice, not to give it. I am a member on some firearms forums, where I debate on a regular basis. I didn?t come here expecting an interest in those fields. While I have a good deal of camping, hunting and fishing experience, I am not in any way an expert on R.V. issues. I comment here, only because I know my way around a subject that seems to be popular, here.

Third Disclaimer:
I am not a Law Enforcement Officer. I have never been a LEO. On the other hand, I have pretty good training in security and defensive firearm usage, compliments of some Law Enforcement Officers who responded to crimes committed in our once lovely neighborhood, who thought I needed to carry a defensive firearm, and took me under their wings - so to speak. I paid the price, put my hunting arms back in the closet, bought the correct weaponry and advanced my training, from there. I couldn?t move away, with my terminally ill, late wife. She could not have survived a move.

I have done volunteer undercover work, both armed and unarmed, and gotten some appreciation plaques for the effort. I had some scores to settle with the drug trade, after my wife passed on. I have also been called ?cop,? ?narc,? ?pig,? and ?GDMF Vigilante,? among other unprintable epithets. I am still alive, uninjured, and have not been arrested. Some of my officer-friends tell me I am one of them, now.  I carry a concealed defensive firearm, everywhere that it is legal. Just my personal choice, not advice.

Let?s start right off, by irritating any Law Enforcement Officers on the board, active or retired. Hope to jiggle some chains, here, including one chap I already like quite a bit, who owns an RV quite similar to mine. Hello???? He?s a cop! I just know he?s a cop! Pitch in, guys!

Law Enforcement Officers, on the average, are slightly better trained than the average gun owner. OK, that?s not the best I can say. Some of the best shooters and personal defense strategists  in the world are cops. Some, on the other hand, qualify to carry their weapons once a year, and that?s all the shooting they do. And some of them have trouble doing even that. Some have to go back, and re-test, repeatedly. Some don?t like carrying, at all, because it?s heavy. You can?t tell who?s who, by looking. Get multiple opinions. One respondent in another thread said some cops will tell you carrying is not wise - while others advise carrying. It?s true.

I got my best training from the BGs - Bad Guys! They taught me more than they will ever know, and they taught me to take the rest of my training seriously. My second best instructor, military, teaching SWAT to LEOs. Yep, I took two of his courses. Third, and still very high on the list, cops. Formally, in class rooms, (if such can be called classrooms,) and informally. I am very grateful for all of it. Worth a large multiple of what I paid! Most of it, I paid nothing for. Extended formal classes are spendy. Expect to buy hundreds of rounds of ammunition, and a bit more for gun repairs and modifications.

First Issue:
How dangerous is it, out there, for an RVer.
I just don?t see a huge risk. (Yeah, I carry a gun, anyway.) I have been robbed. I have never been robbed in a camp-ground, nor for that matter at a campfire in the deep woods. I have heard of just a few thefts, in my lifetime of hunting and fishing equipment, except inside city limits, at the local fishing holes. I have read about a few violent crimes at remote sites. I have heard of disputes over downed game. I have twice given game, I shot, to someone willing to fight over it. I?m not willing to fight, if I can avoid it.

Next:
Do I need an alarm system.
Once again, personal choice. A drunk or a novice BG is likely to trip your alarm. An accomplished thug will find it and avoid it, or trip it and disappear, repeatedly, to shake your confidence in it. I?ve had both happen to my collection of alarm systems. I have one simple alarm system installed on my house, and several systems returned, back in the closet, in their boxes, (if anyone is interested.) It has two cameras. I have no alarm system on my RV, except for fire, gas, and CO1. Someday, I may install a system, there. Or, maybe not.

The best alarm system is an obedience trained dog. The best system for summoning help is a cell phone, even in a stick house. (Really Bad Guys will cut your wires, including your electric power.) The best system for the money is available at Radio Shack, for less than a dollar. It?s a window sticker that says, ?PROTECTED BY SILENT RADIO SHACK ALARM SYSTEM.?

And then, the cops respond to private alarms when they get around to it, if at all. Too late, for you. The accomplished BG knows this and trips your alarms to discourage you, and the cops. Pretty soon, it?s ?Oh, it?s that place, again.?  Heard over the scanner - ?Hey guys. That?s a frequent flyer. Ignore it. They need to get it fixed!?  Your alarm is ?crying wolf.?

What is the best defense system?
The best defense system is your brain, eyes and ears. Just don?t go - or if you?re already there, don?t stay - if you feel nervous about where you are.

Take the time to work on a good case of Paranoia, and if you are successful, get out of there! Look around. See evidence of wild parties? Lots of bullet casings? Empty alcohol containers? Trashy looking general area? Anything else you don?t like? Go somewhere else!

It?s not stupid, it?s not crazy and it?s not cowardice. They teach it in virtually all formal defense and firearms classes. You have senses that are not in your conscious mind, and you ignore them at your peril. The best cops know this, and they flat-out ?trust their instincts!?  For some, that?s why they are still alive! It?s the first line of defense. Don?t leave home, without it.

In one of my volunteer experiences, I got really hinky about a man standing nearby. I beeped a cop in. I told him the guy hadn?t done anything wrong, but I just had a really bad feeling about him. I said, ?Maybe he?s OK, and I just don?t like him. I had to call!?

The cop said, ?Well, I?ll go over and talk to him for a minute. Maybe I won?t like him.?

They busted him. He was an escapee from the Missouri State Pen, and wanted for rape and murder. See, somehow, I knew that!  NOT! That bad, I hadn?t even imagined!

In order of importance, the next defensive system, you will need to buy. You?re not born with it. It is insurance. In most policies it includes theft and vandalism. Make sure your?s does. It has two intended benefits. First it will replace or repair any damage from theft or vandalism. Reduces the financial hardship in most cases to $500 or less. Secondly, it?s supposed to give you peace of mind. Use it as intended, according to the directions. Sleep well.

If someone wants your RV, and is willing to let the family go, take advantage of his generosity. Once again, get out of there. You can buy another RV. Give that one to him! I carry a gun, but generosity is my first choice, in a case of this nature. If I can do that without shooting, I have a heck of a bargain! The cost of shooting, (I mean dollar cost, here,) even if you are not detained and never called to court, is a sizeable multiple of your deductible! Most likely, you will be detained, at least briefly. You will need an attorney, even if you are never charged. Even a cop, in a ?good? shooting, expects to be ?detained? for a few hours and then sent on a vacation, for a while.

Next, get a gun and the training that makes good sense for your intended use. Don?t want to do that? Good for you. Ignore the advice. It?s another one of those ?personal choice? issues. That is my order of importance. You may have a better idea.

Next, in order of importance, get a dog or two. I don?t like dogs. Never did. Got two of them, but ours are people in fuzzy coats.

The boss is a five pound Min-Pin, named Hoover. He is our alarm system and he?s impossible to fool. If he sez there?s trouble - then there is trouble. Little dogs have very fine hearing and a sense of smell that is awesome. You can?t compete and don?t try. Trust your dog! He knows what he is talking about.

Our second is a Boxer. He?s a medium sized dog. I?ll argue breed, for a protection dog, any day, all day! Boxers have been bread for more than a hundred years to be - first - safe around children and - second - to be territorial, home protection dogs. They are the only dog breed, designed for that purpose, from the beginning. They are safe,  powerful, amazingly discriminatory, and absolutely love to ?play rough.?  They need training, affection, and strong leadership. Ours is named Jasper, for his jasper-agate colored coat. (Hence ?Jasper?s Mom? on this forum, my wife.) (Beg me, and I?ll post a picture of Jasper and his ?mom,? playing rough.)

Please note: a ?protection? dog is not an ?attack? dog. Those are different animals, for a different purpose. Best breeds for that are German Shepherds and Doberman Pincers.

Been a long time since either of us has been threatened. But, Jasper?s purpose is to compliment my gun. He will go into the fight before I can even get my gun out. Gives me time and opportunity to develop control of the situation, while the BG is attempting to control a Boxer. If you don?t have and don?t want a gun, a medium or larger dog is nearly as good, or arguably, better. Whatever dog you choose, if you go this way, must be obedience trained and be safe around your fellow campers. Folks love Jasper. He loves them. He knows the difference between a GG (Good Guy) and a BG. How? I don?t know.

So, you and your family, dogs included, are on the way back from a beautiful hike around that pristine mountain lake. At the last turn, you know you will soon have your lovely rolling home in view. But, just before the turn, your Boxer starts to rumble. His lips begin to curl, getting out of the way of his teeth and his hair around his neck and down his back stands up. He strains on the leash! ?Let go!? he yelps! Apparently he feels needed, somewhere. (He is on a leash, isn?t he?)

Sure enough, with only a few hundred yards to go, you can already see the damage. There is a beat-up old Ford, a short distance away. Your toad has glass busted out!  The BGs are probably inside the RV! ?Stay here,? you order the others. You have a job to do! You and the demonic dog have a house to clear! You must take it back! You must save the investment in your rolling home!

STOP RIGHT THERE! Get an iron grip on the dog?s leash. Gun or no gun, get back around the curve, out of sight and remember what the instructor told you the first day of ?House Clearing Class.? You did take the course, didn?t you? Remember eight, twelve hours days of dry and live fire in the hot, humid, dark, ?Fun House??

House Clearing Rule Number One: ?Don?t do house clearing!?
House Clearing Rule Number Two: ?Time is your best friend. Use it!?
House Clearing Rule Number Three: ?Get somebody else to do it!?

Have you ever watched the news, as they show a SWAT team surrounding a house. They show a second clip, and it?s dark. Then, they show a third and it?s light, again. SWAT has been there, all day and all night and it?s day, again. The BG is still inside and SWAT is still outside. There is a reason for that. ?Professional Drivers on a Closed Course. Don?t do this at home!?

You have water, because you took it with you. You have snacks and can go days without food. You can sleep in the brush, if necessary. You took your cell phone along. Follow the plan you made, originally, when you first thought this over. Find a way to get help. Cool your heels. Take your time. Time is your friend.

OK, somebody clean up my mistakes. If nobody responds to this, I will turn into a frog!

Ray D.
 

John From Detroit

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I know what you mean:

You said:
==Law Enforcement Officers, on the average, are slightly better trained than the average gun owner. OK, that?s not the best I can say. Some of the best shooters and personal defense strategists  in the world are cops. Some, on the other hand, qualify to carry their weapons once a year, and that?s all the shooting they do. And some of them have trouble doing even that. Some have to go back, and re-test, repeatedly. Some don?t like carrying, at all, because it?s heavy==

True story:

Man fills up his mustang at the Total Station (Way down the list of places I'd fill a performance car) and as he's returning to the car the man with the gun demands "Your keys or your life" His reply,,, Catch (the keys that is)

He goes and phones ON GUARD, they locate the car (S/B on M-39 entering Detroit) and call my office, the call is directed to one of my partners.

As the gunman approaches six mile road (2 miles into the city) a trooper pulls in behind him

The car suddenly quits running, the gunman coasts to the shoulder, and being as the top was down (Convertable) even though the doors suddenly locked he jumped out (NOTE: there is no mystery as to what caused the engine to stop and the doors to lock..... ON-Guard did it by remote control, they can do that, same for On-Star (GM))

The subject starts running up the hill, trooper bails out and starts after him,  Idiot draws down on trooper

Trooper shoots in competition, out of 30 shots he put 30 in the 10 ring and 28 in the bullseye

Shot 31 hit the bullseye too (Idiot in the leg) he lived to stand trial, though it hurt to stand.
 

Ray D

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Boise, Idaho
;D Whew! My skin was starting to get clammy and there was a green tint growing. You saved me. I didn't turn into a frog!

Actually, meant to get your goat, a little, with that "average cops are slightly better trained" crack. Failed at that.

Love the story. There are some quality moves, there. The Mustang owner drew a well qualified cop. Good for him. Mustang owners are a strange group! "Jasper's Mom" has a Mustang Convertible. I wouldn't want to be the one who tried to take her Mustang. Truthfully, I think she'd do the right thing, and give up the Mustang at the point of a gun. The point is that nothing that you can buy is worth your life.

I love the On-Star system. Wish they would retrofit their system, but they won't. If they ever start doing that, I'll be at the front of the line. It's worth a whole lot more than just to catch the bad guys that stole your vehicle.

I am going to correct a glaring deficiency I see in the threads I've read on this general subject. From that reading, one might get the idea that one needs paramilitary training to keep a .38 in the night-stand, by the bed. Not so.

First, decide what you are going to do with the gun. If you just want one to keep iin the back of the coach, fo ar night-time emergency, a lot less training will do.

Take a gun safety class from the NRA. That's a couple of days, usually on a weekend. Take a concealed carry class, approved by your state. Ordinarily, that's 8 hours. May be split into two night-time classes. Never mind that you don't intend to carry concealed. Those classes are mostly about law, and little about gun safety and tactics. You will learn "attitude" that is as valid in your bed, at night, as it is for a concealed weapon on the street. And, you will get good "shoot - no shoot" decision making instruction.

Make it a revolver, and you need little or no training in operations. You can learn it all at the counter, in the gun store, in five minutes.  Take it to a range, once a month or so, and run a box of ammo thru it. Clean it up and put it away. You're good to go.

Oh, and at the range - the range master will spot you as a beginner, right away. His job is to keep the range safe. Every one of them I have met is delighted to get a newby started. They are a lot of help. Lean on them! Listen carefully to them. (Obey their commands, strictly.) They love it. And if you prefer to learn from cops, most range masters, I know, are cops. Range Mastering is a work of love, for them. They are good, if they have that job, and they don't dp it for the money.

If you are really going to carry, more decisions, more training, more money. If you live in a neighborhood gone bad and intend to resist, Paramilitary or police training by a private agency is not a bad idea. You need a better gun, or several, and you'll buy a lot more ammo!

OK, off the soap box, now. Next!

Ray D.
 

Ray D

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I took two courses from a company, now not operating. They were a group of Army Special Forces, and they are busy, now. Don't know if they will start up again, someday. Mostly, they did contract training for Law Enforcement Agencies and mostly SWAT, but a civilian could go through some screening and be accepted. Not much help, today. Oh, yeah, almost forgot. for civilians taking the courses, they translated SWAT into home defense applications, as you went along. I was the only civilian in my first course. There were two of us, when I took the second course. Class size was eight people.

I have also had a policy to take a refresher classroom course, annually. I take them, locally. I try to take from a different agency, each time. My best was from the local Sheriff's Department. I took it twice. It was free, but it is reserved far in advance. It is law, tactics, good advice, but no shooting. Takes two 4 hour evenings, during the week.

There are several highly respected schools around the nation. I'll dig up some info, and post it. I have talked to people who have taken classes from all of them. They are fairly uniformly good at what they do. I have to wait for some new gun magazines to arrive. I can't keep the old ones, very long, with the friends I have.

Best known for the quality classroom stuff is Massad Ayoob. His group teaches law and tactics, nationwide. I don't think he has a fixed training site. Maybe he does. I recommend people start with his book, "In The Gravest EXtreme." "The Role Of The Firearm In Personal Protection." It is available at Police Bookshelf, P.O. Box 122, Concord, NH, 03301. Phone is 800-624-9049. I think a bookstore can also get it for you. I have bought it, several times. I think it's around $10. Like I said, keeping that kind of stuff around here is a bit difficult. You may find it at a local gun store. (I have no financial interest in this or any other commercial business.)

For faster help, sign on to "thearmedcitizen.net" or "thefiringline.com." (I think that both of those addresses are correct.) You'll get virtually instant, helpful replies, as a newby.

Sorry for the delay.

Ray D
 

Ray D

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Beerman: I found one in some notes. Going to have to wait for more.

The one I found is "Front Sight." It is located in southern Nevada. Try frontsight.com. I have talked to people who have been to this school. The reviews were excellent. My information is dated. The techniques are similar to what I have taken, but more focused on civilian personal defense. The prices are higher than what I paid, but not a lot, and the fascilities are better. I hear that the pace is a bit easier to take. Not so tired, sore and dirty! I think you can take your RV there and save a few bucks. You have to reserve well in advance, which is pretty much standard in that industry. They used to give discounts based on the number of courses you take in a year. Don't know if they still do that. They used to give short, free, machinegun courses. Not very useful, but fun, I hear. Not a personal defense weapon. You could pretty much ruin a BG, and the inside of an RV with one of those! I have no interest left in machine guns, not an ounce of it!

Ray D.
 

John From Detroit

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Well Ray,  I should point out that not all the Michigan State Troopers can put all 30 rounds in the 10 ring, (Though a good number can)

You also said: "I love the On-Star system. Wish they would retrofit their system, but they won't. If they ever start doing that, I'll be at the front of the line. It's worth a whole lot more than just to catch the bad guys that stole your vehicle."

Though On-Star does not retrofit, there is at least one cellular phone company (I am thinking Cingular but the confidence is only about 50%) that provides a simular service  Might be Vorizon though.

And there are other companies that provide simular service as well,  Though it has been a while since I looked into that kind of thing... Snyder Trucking (What are those, orange semi's) Provides such a service, bit pricy, but good I've used it to track down a semi on occasion
 

Ray D

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The reason I would like to have OnStar is for emergency, out of cell phone coverage area. My wife and I, both, are a bit challenged. We couldn't change a flat if our lives depended upon it. If we were stopped, involuntarily, we're there til someone happens along by chance. It's the satelllite service, for emergencies, I am interested in.

You said, " I should point out that not all the Michigan State Troopers can put all 30 rounds in the 10 ring, (Though a good number can)"

Yes, I figured that. That's good shooting. I have one of those prejudices that are probably off base. I have a hunch that because of the sometimes remote environment they work in, state police are more likely to be concious of the need to stay current on their gun-handling skills and take them seriously.

I was watching a woman shooting on Range Day, in a Citizen's Police Academy class. She had little experience with firearms, and none with handguns. She scored impressively with a duty weapon, a .40 Glock. Then, she demurred on the MP-5. (Fully Automatic - Machine Pistol) The Range Master was patient, and she agreed to try it. She fired in one to five shot bursts, getting more and more agitated as she went. She put 60 rounds in the black! The Range Master's jaw was hanging when she handed the gun back, nearly in tears. "I just can't do it," she said, "I can't keep the trigger down because the gun keeps pulling off target!"

She had thought she was supposed to hold the trigger for the full magazine, and then repeat. She got the high score of the day, including, she outscored the range master.

Back on topic, another suggestion I should have mentioned for those concerned about personal security. Consider caravaning. Two or three RVs, just about anywhere, should be safe. As the numbers go up, the risk goes down. I can't imagine a BG or even a group of BGs tackling a campsite with multiple campers in residence.

Ray D
 

John From Detroit

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Deffently safety in numbers that's for sure

In Michigan, the State Police are the best simply because they get the best training,  Most departments require you pass a certified training program (These programs are offered by assorted colleges and universities) Michigan Law enforcement Officer Training Commission or some such approves the course.

The state police require you pass the STATE POLICE Training academy, which makes the college courses look kind of lame in most areas,,, The only acaedemic requiremeint for joingin the state police is a high school diploma or equivlent, but you don't get the badge till you graduate the training adademy and it's the best in the state. 


By the way On-Star is no better than your cell phone from what I understand, that is if the cell won't work, neither will On-Star... Now Hughes (Takes time to set up and take down, but so long as you are on the proper side of the grass it should work)

When I had a problem in the middle of no-phone-land,,, I was able to flag a passing motorist and he called a tow truck for me (The MH was fine, the towed needed to be towed (natch) but on a flat bed, not 4-down)

I was thinking of setting up the dish and using SKYPE when the passing passed.
 

Ray D

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Boise, Idaho
Jasper, the fully automatic defensive weapon, advanced programming by DNA.

Thousand Springs RV Campground in Idaho.
Jasper is on guard, as we come back from a walk without him. He is in his seat, the co-pilot seat, watching out the window. The window is open. The screen is closed. His home is a 2005, 36' Damon Challenger.

Three Island Crossing State Park, in Idaho. BG (Bad Girl) Jasper?s Mom, AKA Granny Dani, sneaks up to attack Jasper, sleeping in the sun.  At about ten to twelve feet, she starts growling. I think there will be a good picture or two as the two of them play. I am expecting a menacing, growling, roaring, sparing contest. I get the digital camera ready. I firm up my grip on the leash.

Jasper had a different idea. Opening his eyes, he sees that he is under attack. ?Great,? he sez, ?my favorite game!?  He launches into a snarling, Boxer Rush. I saw it begin, and clicked the shutter, immediately. With the delay, I had no idea what I was going to get. He sprang into the air, turning sideways for a body-slam. Notice the flailing leash.

He clamped her left arm in his mouth, but pulls his punch to avoid hurting her. And you see the picture. She is a bit bent, laughing, but the ?play? is gone out of her. She is not hurt, no pain and no teeth marks on her arm. In three to five seconds of play-fight, she is exhausted!

In a serious attack, Boxers can bite, just like other dogs. But mostly they ?box.?  They hit with their paws, and bump with their heads or shoulders, and they go airborne for a body slam, similar to a pro-wrestler. They can easily go head high, and a previous Boxer I had, cleared my head, more than once.

They use their teeth for gripping, ripping and shaking an opponent. A Bad Guy, fully grown and in excellent physical condition is a loser. In the confines of a house or an RV, even an armed BG will most likely lose. He will be unable to track the rapidly moving target at such a close range, with a gun.

On the other hand, Jasper and five pound Hoover play-fight. That?s a bite sized attacker against 65 pounds of Boxer. Little Hoover can, and does, win the fight over the bone. The bone, nearly as heavy as he is, he only drags it a few feet. Then he challenges Jasper (chip on the shoulder game). Fight resumes and Hoover always wins. Or, - -

A toddler, seeing all the fun, rushes Jasper in an attempt to knock him down. She collides, throwing her arms around his neck! Down he goes, on his side, smile on his face and tongue lolling out like a dead dog. Go figure! He will not be able to get up, until she lets him up!
 

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nm_shooter

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After being a competitive shooter for about 25 years now, I decided to take a concealed carry course just recently.  I was a little disappointed in the course, but the instructor did have some very good information for us.  Here's a bit of a summary.  (Same caveats... I'm no attorney, and use this at your own risk).

Do everything you can to avoid a confrontation.  He did talk about a "spider sense" of when things were wrong, and to always be aware.  Never initiate or aggravate a confrontation.  Joke, run, back up, toss your wallett, whatever. 

If someone is after something material, let them have it, even if you have a defense weapon with you.  Don't shoot unless a life is in danger from the threat.  The instructor said "you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride".  You will be arrested even if it was legitimate defense, and probably be sued either by the person that you shot or by their relatives.  At the very best, your legal fees are going to be huge.  Don't protect a $10k camper and end up paying $20k in legal fees.

If the person is a threat and the situation escalates into a risk of life situation and you can not flee, fight.  Never, ever succomb.  Fight until you are unconsious, dead, or the threat is gone.  If things go well, cease your defense activities once the threat stops.  Continuing to fire will result in nasty legal issues.

Be competent with your defense.  Your skill must be better than the BG's skill plus his luck. 

Keep in mind that the typical lethal range of a knife weilding assailant even against a good shooter is 7 yards.  Distance is your friend.  Have a threshold in mind if someone is advancing with a weapon; and state your warnings well before they cross the threshold.

If you have a cell phone, call 911 if you feel threatened.  If someone is beating on your camper door/house door and you are inside, call the cops and don't hang up.  You want the 911 tape to record you yelling at the BG to "stop, I have a gun, I will shoot" before the shooting starts. 

Most campground thefts are non-violent in nature and purely thefts of opportunity.  Lock up and hide your stuff.  Leave a light on if you are going to be away early in the P.M.  Harbor freight sells a cheap digital safe that you can bolt to the floor under a seat or bed.  If you are going out, leave a $10 bill on the counter by the door.  If you come back in the camper and the bill is gone, get out quick and assume someone is still in there.  I second the dog idea.... the little ones have huge protective attitudes and make lots of noise.  They actually camp pretty good too.  If your spouse does not like firearms, give her some bear spray.  Keep in mind that there are huge legal issues with fogging a person with bear spray.  Go to the pit toilets in pairs. 

Take a CCW course even if you don't want to carry, as it goes into a lot of the laws.  A good book is "The Concealed Handgun Manual".

I'd rather be a good runner than a good shooter.

Regards,

Frank



 

John From Detroit

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My favorite is still the day they charged me like enraged bulls (heads lowered and head first) and I simply stepped out of their way and let them slam into the brick wall.  End of fight.  They fought the wall, and the wall won.
 

Ray D

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Boise, Idaho
Well, I thought I had said my piece. But John keeps telling his ?Stupid Crooks? stories. (Love them, John. Got a few of my own.)

Well, then NM Shooter comes up with, ?Be competent with your defense. Your skill must be better than the BG's skill plus his luck.? (No argument, NM Shooter, you are right on, of course.) However, the statement overplays the risk. Here?s why - - -.

There are a few bad guys - competent with guns. They make a living, that way. They are wholly unlikely, however, to turn up in your bedroom at night and not likely at all to get into a confrontation that is not professionally motivated. That is, they do harm for a living, but they don?t do petty theft or night time intrusions as a general rule. No real money in it. Lots of risk. They love money and hate risk.

The BG who shows up in someone?s bedroom is a desperate person, looking for prescription drugs, valuables, prescription drugs or money or prescription drugs, on the dresser. He is a serious danger and has no social conscience at all. He does not connect someone else?s pain as in any way related to him. You are nothing more than someone who has his money, or whatever he is after. He?s 14 to 24 or so years old.

He has no gun training. He never shoots the gun! He understands that if he pulls the trigger - his problems are solved. The victims die, or at least stop bothering him. These guys are ?stupid crooks.?

Most likely, it?s a .22. Don?t sneer at it. It can kill. That is rare. It usually doesn?t. It is the most fun to shoot, most common caliber sold - and thus stolen. It uses the cheapest ammunition. Two cents a shot. It is the most likely caliber to end up in your bedroom, as a menace to you. Your .38 trumps it in a big way. Your Boxer loves it, and has bones to gnaw on, for quite a while.

Some stupid crooks actually buy their guns. (On the black market.) The favorite is the Mac 10 and the Tech 9. They are mean looking, a favorite of TV and Movie fiction. Hollywood likes them because they are dramatically ugly, mean looking. And that?s why the BGs like them. They emulate the TV bad guys.

Those guns are inaccurate, unreliable, prone to malfunction, jamming, pieces of junk. The anti-gun crowd tries to ban them. I hope they live forever! In my case, if I somehow knew I was going against a BG, tomorrow, if he will stop by, today, I will buy him a Tech 9, for the fight, myself! I tell people, ?If you see one of those, shooting at you, stand very still! Move around and you could get hurt, accidentally!? By the way, the proper stance for firing one, is to lean it over to the side, and sneer. Snap-Flip the barrel with each shot, to boost the bullet's  speed.

Get as much training as you have the time and money for. Then, be reasonably confident in yourself, against a night-time intruder. I lived with that, for several years. Each new intruder was less of a fright, more exercise for my Boxer. Never did, quite, get to enjoying it. Well, I laughed in the heat of it, a couple of times! Fun memory, now, (the stupidest ones) in a sick sort of way. OK, the further into the past it gets, the better I like it!

OK, John, NM Shooter, anyone - beat me up. Straighten this out and make it make sense.
 

John From Detroit

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Location
Davison Michigan
Troopers once arrested a carjacker (Idiot carjacked a UPS truck and drove straight toward my troopers with Good Citizen and his cell phone following to keep me posted of idiot's location)

I saw that gun... I'd be afraid to put bullets in it, Your description was very accurate (Piece of junk)

Man tells me of a burglar who broke into his townhouse, Bedroom upstairs, (Owner sleeping) Burglar downstairs

Owner hears noise, tiptoes to closet, gets out Mossburg 12GA, Quietly opens bedroom door, Racks one in chamber.

Found what looked like tennis shoe tire marks where the bad dude burned rubber getting the (you know what) out of there!!!  Seems crooks don't much like shotguns.


Another story.... Criminal is supposed to be turning himself in to our Detectives, well, he's not showing up. So we sent a couple of patrol cars and a Detective to his house.  Other detective is in the Dispatch room (Radio room) calling him,  I've hit the MUTE ALL so he's not hearing the radios in the background.  Detective gives me the nod and I whisper in the mic that he is home.  Detective at his house rings the doorbell.

Suspect is giving giving the detective on the phone a line of male bovine produced organic fertilizer about how he's got to testify in a federal case and the FBI is coming to interview him, (Door bell rings) In fact I think that is them now. 

He drops the phone and runs out the back door, Jumps a fence, Jumps a 2nd fence (low rabbit type fences) Jumps a bigger fence and there are two troopers with one shotgun..

Ever see those Dick Tracey cartoons where the character says HOLD EVERYTHING and bullets stop in mid flight while he calls in to Tracy... Well this guy froze in Mid jump, kind of drifted to the ground, did not even need to be told to assume the position.

They ask him why he was being so cooperative.. "Don't want to get shot"

They mentioned that had not stopped him in the past (Last 3 times he was arrested Detroit Police had had to shoot him) "They use handguns, Those shotguns mess you up too much"

He is right too.... That's why Michigan State Police carry shotguns (They may carry carbines as well, but usually have a shotgun as the primary long gun)  Way more effective
 

Ray D

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Jun 4, 2006
Posts
1,963
Location
Boise, Idaho
John sez:

?Owner hears noise, tiptoes to closet, gets out Mossburg 12GA, Quietly opens bedroom door, Racks one in chamber.?

Folks, you don?t need a gun!

(Caution: This is a JOKE, half serious, common in the world of firearm enthusiasts. It goes over well, even among that group. It is NOT meant as advice!)

Safe home defense weapon for those who prefer to avoid guns. Take your personal recorder, to a friend who owns a pump, shotgun. Find a quiet, inside place and have him rack the weapon while you record the sound. Earmark the recording, for emergency use.

You awaken to something going ?bump? in the night. Carry your recorder close to the bedroom door, on maximum volume, and play the message for the intruder!?  The sound of a shotgun, racking? There?s nothing like it! ?House Clearing For Dummies.?

I am going to throw a gauntlet down, here. It?s a challenge to some of the experts. Let?s see if I get a bite - - -.

I have seen the suggestion, here, a couple of times that a shotgun is a premium selection for home defense. Ordinarily, I would agree. I have chosen, for my own reasons, not to use a shotgun. More importantly, while a shotgun is certainly at the top of the list for home defense, that is for someone living in a stick house.

I wouldn?t consider it for RV home defense. It is too long, and unwieldy. The rooms, doorways, and hallways are just too small, too narrow. You do need some room, if you are to use a shotgun effectively, even one designed and built as a specialty close quarters weapon. My opinion is ?handgun, only.?

Additionally, if you have a dog, any dog, it?s a bad mix with a shotgun unless you and the dog are trained for that specific scenario. Easy situation for losing a good and trusted friend, right when he?s there for you in your moment of need. Bad Juju!

Ray D
 

John From Detroit

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Apr 12, 2005
Posts
24,950
Location
Davison Michigan
Your suggestion of a tape recording.... Is one I made many years ago and many times over the years.

No self respecting criminal is going to stick around to find out if there is really a shotgun,

The reason for this was explained by a fiction author in one of the Matt Helm agent for I.C.E. books

There are two ways to see if a gun is loaded.

Visual inspection, in which case the other person will take you out while you are distracted

Pull the triggur,  If it's not loaded, you are no worse off than you were 10 seconds ago
If it is loaded, you have just improved the world by killing a liar.

and the burgler has no reason to believe that the sound of a shotgun being racked will not be followed shortly by First, a loud BOOM, and second by a loud SCREAM,,, His
 

Ray D

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Posts
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Location
Boise, Idaho
Brian: Sorry for the time it took to get back to you. I have two more for you. See Shootrite Firearms Academy, (www.shootrite.com) in Owens Cross Roads, Alabama, and Rifles Only (www.riflesonly.com.) in Kingsville, Texas. Rifles Only is not what it sounds like. Both offer force on force training. A bit more painful than what I've done, but no more tiring. Probably a bit more practical if home defense is what you're after. We used live ammo, with real bullets, so of course we didn't shoot at each other. They both use plastic pellets and shoot at each other, hence the pain. Those little pellets can hurt. They do wear protective head gear.

I hear that they have upper level galleries where you can watch your fellow students make their blunders. Ought to be a lot of fun.

Be aware that most of your fellow students will be law enforcement. They are serious about their training. You have to be a bit weird to think of something like this as a fun vacation. I compared it more, to bootcamp with handguns. Miserable, but satisfying.

Ray D
 

Ray D

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Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Posts
1,963
Location
Boise, Idaho
Got some ?clean up? work to do.

First, several have mentioned the money cost of personal defense in a lethal situation. In my ?Drug War Days? I didn?t have any situation that resulted in a shooting, nor in a death. Got a bit lucky, actually. I did have two friends who were involved in fatalities.

The first lived three blocks east of me. He woke up to a 18 year old wielding a kitchen knife the kid had picked up in the kitchen. The kid plunged the knife into the mattress, beside the intended victim, missing him. (You have to be a bit of a stupid crook, to miss with a knife!) He slept with a .22 revolver under his pillow, and responded with that gun. (I haven?t, and won?t, do that.) The defensive action was fatal.

It was a harrowing experience, of course. He was not arrested, not detained, did not exercise his Fifth Amendment rights, blubbered out everything to the cops, did not hire an attorney. Never heard anymore about it, except that the media hounded him for a little while. Cost - nothing except the emotional pain.

Second one lived two blocks west of me. He awakened to see the dim figure of a 15 year old youth standing beside his bed with a tire iron in his hand. The victim had a .38 in his night-stand drawer. He was struck once, before he could fire. The shot was fatal.

He hired a criminal attorney, after exercising his rights. He was not arrested, nor detained. The attorney costed him $2,500. There was no trial, no charges ever brought. He was sued by the child?s family for wrongful death, through excessive force.. His legal expenses in the suit amounted almost $25,000. The suit never went to trial - he won! Total cost - $27,500! Some victory!

Have to try to top John?s ?Stupid Crook? stories.

I was awakened to the sound of appliances being overturned, in the kitchen. And then, there was that ?angry Boxer? roar with a few yelps and bellows, thrown in. The house was literally shaking with battle sounds. I rolled over, operating the safe on the side of the bed, by feel, and catching the .45 as it fell into my right hand. I had ?House Clearing? to do! My dog was in one heck of a fight, in the kitchen!

Short as I can make it, when I got to the kitchen, there was no one there! Just the Boxer, Duke. He was slamming his front feet on the floor, by the wheel chair ramp down to the main floor, and bellowing wildly! He was shaking the house!

OK, the crook was down there. I ?sliced the pie? getting the gun lined up, down the wheel chair ramp. No one there! Duke is still going nuts! He?s never been wrong. As I am studying the room, below, over the gun sight, I notice that the motion sensor light is on, through the kitchen window, out toward the patio.

There is my ?Stupid Crook!?  He?s maybe 15, dressed in black, staring at the window, down there, holding a pry-bar. He has the window open, up to the nails that I had driven into the window sill, to prevent the window from being opened, past about 5 inches. He?s stymied!

Surely, he can hear the Boxer roaring and slamming his feet on the floor! He?s 5 feet away, and I could hear it in the back bedroom! Doesn?t seem to bother him, at all! He?s puzzled that he can?t get the window open! He lifts - no movement.

At that moment, I regretted driving those nails! Maybe, he would wait, while I pull them out so he can get the window open, and meet Duke! Maybe I could just unlock the door, only a foot away! I was laughing, at the sight! I don?t have any idea what he was thinking! Never mind me, and my .45! That Boxer was raising H**** ummm, Heck!

I called Duke to the front door on the other side of the house. I opened the door, and let him out. He had to go almost 150 feet, to get to the back patio. I figured I could make it 35 feet, to the kitchen window, in time to watch the action on the patio. Wrong! When I got to the window, the guy was gone. Duke was at the gate, slamming his feet on it, with Boxer dirty talk!

Cops found him. He had experienced a real A$$ Chewing, and was taken to the emergency room for treatment. Apparently, he cleared the gate, while Duke had his teeth sunk into something meaningful.

Cops cautioned me, mildly, about letting the Boxer out, under those conditions. I was within my rights, in this state, just barely. (If he hadn?t opened the window, breaking the latch, I could have been cited. Shooting would have been a felony.) (No threat, at that time.) They had to quit laughing, to do their ?cautioning.? I wouldn?t do that, again. It was not a sensible move, not a good move, at all! But, I don?t mind saying, I enjoyed that one stupid crook, the one time I did it! Worth being woken up, for!`

Your turn, John!

Ray D.
 
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