PERSONAL SECURITY IN YOUR R.V.:

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Yeah Ray...I have to shop for "better" ammo ;) Years ago you could buy a pistol that took shotgun shells ( Country of Turkey). Are they available here and legal? Seems like a good compromise....My pistol is a Taurus .357. Little hefty but reliable:)
 
Woodartist: Yes, there is one such caliber that scores a match with one shotgun shell. I've never done it, but I think the .45 Long Colt is the same size as the 410 shotgun shell. Check me out on that before you put any money in it. Anyway, if my memory serves me right, then any handgun that shoots .45 Long Colt will also shoot 410. (Won't work with any other .45 caliber as the chamber is not long enough.

You are going to get quite a spread, out of a pistol barrel, with a shotgun shell. That would be the reason for doing it, wouldn't it? Wouldn't be liable to do wall penetrating. You'd have to remember that you are going to hit, more or less, everything you can see, in front of you! You can't do a "hostage shot" with it.

I had a friend, in law enforcement, that swore by it. (Assuming I have the calibers correct.)? He carried a Derringer Double in his pocket. He loaded it with the 410, never with .45 Long Colt. The gun had a one inch rifled barrel!  One inch of rifling made it legal!  ::)

I told him that pulling the trigger looked to me like a good way to break my own arm! He said "You have to stay right on top of it, and it does hurt a little." But, it's legal, and it's basically a really short barrel, "sawed off shotgun."

I had another friend that hunted with a long barrel, .45 Long Colt, and shot birds with the shotgun shell. Worked well, close up, on Grouse and Quail. Great for "camp meat."

Yes, they are legal, as long as the barrel is rifled. (Last I knew.) Not legal for a an old smooth bore nor for a foriegn gun with a smooth bore. (Smooth bore would make it a shotgun, with a less than legal barrel length. ??? ) So, put rifling inside tha barrel and you're good to go! ??? The difference is wasted on me! Quirky laws. The people who write them never take the time to understand what they are doing!

Ray D.
 
Thanks Ray, interesting. I was not aware of the rifled barrel making a difference as far as the law was concerned. Yes, 410 was what I was told about. I have thought about a Derringer and your comments gave me some good info ;)
 
Woodartist: (and anyone else contemplating using any kind of shotgun in any RV)

Before you buy, shoot the gun you're buying, at the range you expect to encounter in live usage. If the gun is new, the seller won't let you shoot it. So, go rent one, somewhere, and shoot that. Do this, especially if you are going to be shooting any kind of shot shell from any handgun, at inside RV distances. (5 to 10 ft.)

Use butcher paper to see the pattern. Be aware that with many angled surfaces in the direction that you may be shooting, you may get some backspatter. You may hit yourself with one or more of the pellets, as they bounce around. This is more or less of a hazard in any confined space, with any shotgun, depending upon the load and the length of the barrel. In a very short barrel, (Handgun for example) the bulk of the powder is still burning when the shot leaves the barrel. The burning powder, funneled to the center of the pattern, increases - spreads the scatter. (They don't call them "Scatter Guns" without reason!)

That is half of the reason why I have chosen not to use a shotgun, in  a confined space, for a defensive weapon. The other half is that you cannot do a "hostage shot," with a shotgun.

If the BG has control of an innocent, or is closely approaching an innocent, you can't shoot! You have to move to "contact range" to use the gun, and that has its own risks. That was the case in the WalMart Parking lot incident - and in that case it worked out fine. But that gun was within inches, or in full contact, at the time the shot was fired. Even at close or actual contact when the gun is fired, you run the risk of "blow back." The burning powder may "blow" some shot back from the wound.

Well, there is no safe way to do a gun-fight. YMMV.

Ray D
 
Good points Ray. I have other options than the 12 Ga., but figured the most likely scenario would be the one where I can use the shotgun. I was thinking of the Derringer for hiking, to lighten the load. I have to check some out. Problem with the pistols is they have to be bought in your home state....of course I can buy Diesel fuel and fertilizer anywhere....go figure ::) So I'll have to wait until Spring or summer....unless a private sale. Meanwhile I have enough "goodies" for now....
 
I have to agree with Ray, the only SAFE gunfight is one you are no where near!w

or if you like

The only safe gunfight is the one on Television.

(For on thing the one on TV likely does not use real bullets)

And when you must go to a gunfight, what's the best thing to take...

2 answers, 12ga and M-16 full auto, both have their advantages
 
Well, I was in the military and learned that I'd do best with an AK-47 ;) Used the M-16 and the AR-15. However for the RV I kind of like the ole 12 gauge ( 10 is better) with the buckshot............. ::)
 
Ordered Glaser Blue. Glaser Silver will penetrate more, and I am looking to minimize hard surface penetration.

Both are Bad Guy show stoppers. Silver is probably a better show stopper, but we are talking small increments. Both will penetrate heavy clothing. I am betting it all on accurate shooting, but hedging a little on random penetration in case of a miss. I almost always carry a backup. In the case of the motorhome guns, I will backup with a larger gun with real bullets, the old fashioned polluting lead and copper kind.

Incidently, all have laser pointing sights, and night sights. I use the night sights to find the target, and the laser to confirm, at the moment of firing. (Glow in the dark stuff.) Also, when I practice, I also turn off the lights and practice in the dark. (I need to do that, again. It's been too long.)  (I go to the range on a early weekday morning, and they allow me to do that, in one of the bays.) (Not all firing ranges will allow that.)

Ray D
 
Allow me to clarify, a little more.

I am fairly comfortable that the exterior walls of the motorhome will stop the frangible ammo. If they don't, it will be fragmented sufficienty to do little or no harm outside and its range will be down to a few feet.

I don't know how well the windshield will do, but wouldn't be surprised if it held without a scratch. Wouldn't be much surprised if it cracked, either. Would be very surprised if the bullet penetrated.

I would expect any other window to blow out, and fragment the bullet as well.The bullet should use up most of its energy breaking the glass. The remaining energy will be dispersed over a wide area. The flying fragments of glass would be as much a hazard as what is left of the bullet. Neither flying glass nor fragments should be more than a minor hazard. The side windows of a motorhome are not particularly strong.

I do not have a lot of confidence in the interior walls.? I would expect them to at least begin to fragment the bullet. I would expect any injuries to be relatively minor. I will not shoot if there is a friendly on the other side of the wall, anyway.

I pretty well trust the bathroom. If it is known to be empty, there are two sets of walls, plus cabinets, stuff in the cabinets, shower doors and plumbing. That should be enough to stop a frangible, completely.

Frangible may ruin an appliance, but it won't penetrate. It also will not penetrate cabinets in the main living area. I wouldn't want to hide behind furniture, in the main area, other than for concealment. Don't think it will stop nor fragment the bullet.

If the slide is retracted, then two exterior walls of the slide are inside. I think they will stop a bullet. That is actually a disadvantage. I would attempt to blow out the slide's side window, (now inside) and follow with a second round on target, through the broken window.

I would expect a sizeable repair bill, and possibly an argument with the insurer.

Ray D
 
This is getting quite a bit longer than I intended. Almost sorry I started the frangible subject! Since some have indicated interest, I feel I need to update some information.

I first learned about Glaser Frangible soon after 9/11, 2001. It made interesting reading, and I contemplated a purchase but the price was too steep for my taste. Later, I learned that Air Marshals would be using it. I have read about it from time to time, since then.

Lately, the performance information has, itself, become a moving target. It is inconsistent, from one source to another. Not only that but the manufacturer?s info is confusing and appears to me to be inconsistent.

Then, I read that Air Marshals are now being armed with a different ammo. A clear reason why eludes me. There appears to be no official explanation. (Or none that I can find.) There also appears to be quite some controversy with politicians involved. Homeland Security will not comment.

The issue that I care about is penetration. I increased my order, to cover extra ammo for some very non-scientific testing. Gonna shoot some at some cobbled together targets, to get an idea for my own purposes as to performance in some variety of materials. Will post non-scientific results of whatever it is that I try, after I get the ammo, which is still on back-order.

Ray D
 
Some heavy duty rethinking.

Been talking and corresponding with a number of knowledgeable friends and acquaintences. Intriguing subject, it turns out, for that group. Real eye-opener! Have a few conclusions. Have a few tentative, sort of semi-conclusions. Got a lot of surprises!

My frangible stuff still isn?t in. If it doesn?t get here, pretty soon, going to buy some of another caliber and do a couple of experiments. I have some experimental results and will mention some of them at the end of this post. (Nothing scientific.) You don?t need to read that far, unless you have burning idle curiosity.

Preliminary Conclusion: Old fashioned standard safety rules apply. There are no magic bullets.

Rule # 1. Identify your target with certainty. You can?t shoot until you do.

Rule # 2.  Hit your target. Just don?t miss.

Rule # 3. Know your backstop and what is down range. If it isn?t known to be safe, you can?t shoot.

End of serious stuff. Beginning of idle curiosity.

Just about everybody in my group has been curious, at one time or another, and either took advantage of an opportunity to check something out, or went so far as to build a mock-up, stick house, wall or walls and conduct some experiments. It?s a test drive. Put the rubber on the road, and see how it handles.

In the course of conversation, I recalled that I had also done that sort of thing in the past. Had forgotten about it! Two of my experiments follow.

I had heard about the legendary penetrating power of the 9mm full metal jacket. Got a chance to observe it. A fire had ruined a small building on a farm that belonged to a friend, and had a hill behind it. Perfect! I had a 9 with me and some FMJ practice ammo. We set it up, and I fired into the building with the hill as a backstop. (We knew we didn?t, really, need that hill.) It was just one of those ?rule? sort of things.

As expected, the bullet penetrated the exterior wall with neat round holes, inside and out. At the second wall, it penetrated the sheet rock with an elongated but neat hole, indicating that the bullet was tumbling. It deflected, somewhat upward, in that wall. It crossed that room and made a neat, 9mm sized profile through the window! Went through sideways, still moving fast with plenty of energy! It ended up somewhere, in that hill that ?we didn?t need!?

For a time, exasperated with finding ammo that I would be comfortable shooting for personal defense, inside a house, I decided to go with a compound hunting bow and arrow. I just knew it would be safer. It would also be quieter. Later, decided to remodel, a little. Included moving one wall. Decided to check out the archery defense. Knew it was safer, but just wanted to check it out.

A broadhead made astonishingly short work of the doomed wall. It crossed the room, and penetrated the second wall, to the feathers! That wasn?t anticipated, and necessitated a bit of unexpected repair work, both sides! OK, I hadn?t exhausted my resources. Decided I would switch to a ?flu-flu.?  That?s a bird arrow with a large blunt plastic head and feathers that fluff out, a ways into flight, and act as a parachute to recover the arrow. The arrow punched a sizeable chunk out of the wall, penetrating completely, but stopped in the next room, short of the other wall. Gave it all up and went back to handguns and standard safety rules.

Other experiments and anecdotal results.

Wadcutters, fired at mockup or otherwise condemned wall. (Several reports.) Penetrated one layer of sheetrock, every time. Occasionally penetrated second layer but with little to no energy left. (One report of a handloader who loads the wadcutter bullet backwards. The ?inside? surface is cupped. It?s a hollow point wadcutter!)

Mockup wall, one layer siding, one layer ? ? plywood sheeting, insulated cavity, one layer 5/8 ? sheetrock. Shelves inside with water filled plastic gallon jugs sitting on them. Location of jugs marked, outside, for aiming purposes. (Compliments of a firearms dealer on a firearms forum.)

Fired every caliber of handgun, .45 to .22, including birdshot and frangible. (Did not include wadcutters.) Also fired 12 ga and 20 ga short barrel shotguns with a selection of loads from buckshot to birdshot. Range, 15 feet.

Every shot penetrated the wall and destroyed or exploded the jug! Birdshot? At 15 feet it is still a solid mass, a slug! Sobering!

At 15 yards, the results would certainly have been different. But, you don?t have 15 yards inside a house, nor an RV. 15 feet is a reasonable distance for that experiment. Specialty rounds need some minimal distance to begin to develop their designed performance. That distance is well beyond 15 feet!

Not tested:

410 loaded into a .45 Long Colt handgun. Might be different.
Don?t have any reports, anecdotal or otherwise, to see what various rounds will do if shot through some wall toward another wall, some greater distance away. This would simulate damage to another residence, nearby. In that circumstance specialty bullets would likely perform better. They should, but I don?t know.

Starting to like wadcutters. Cheap and easy on the shoot?n arm, effective at short ranges.

Ray D.
 
One thing that I wonder about is the penetration of a heavy coat? Winter type. Heard there was a problem during the Korea Conflict where the regular bulllets had problems penetrating the enemies heavy coats....can't remember, maybe M-1? So, would the "safer" ammo be ineffective for a person wearing a heavy coat? Yes, paranoia shows ;)
 
If I remember correctly that was the M1 carbine.  It fired a rather anemic 30 cal cartridge.  The M1 rifle fires a 30-06 with a 2700 fps 173 grain ball that could penetrate 1/4" armor much less a couple of inches of cotton batting. 
 
I think I heard/saw it on the history channel as it was playing background noise for me :) It very wel could have been the carbine and if that was used in Korea, that explains it. Thanks Carl. Now the question of the "safer" ammo penetrating the coat????
 
Carl has it right, according to my ?expert? (cough, cough) recollection. (My level of expertise is suffering in my own mind, after this fiasco!? ::)? :-[ ) The problem was with the M1 Carbine, only. The Garand has an untarnished reputation. A factor in the problem was range. A war rifle needs to be effective, out to several hundred yards. (None of that old ?whites of their eyes? stuff. The Chinese charged in mass, and waiting for an effective range was fatally difficult to manage.)

The M1 Carbine got a bad rap, due to being assigned a job it was not designed to do. It is effective out past 100 yds, but not much past there. Tricked out a bit by reasonably good maintenance, the M1 Carbine is a very good short to medium range gun.

Safer ammo penetrating a heavy coat? A question of range, again. I would think that anything that will penetrate an exterior wall of a house, would penetrate a heavy coat with ease. Out past 25 or 30 yards, I don?t know. (At that range, there might be a question as to just how ?immediate? a threat might be.) At 15 feet - piece o? cake for just about any ammo.

Out there on the desert, where you frequently are, find a post. Nail a piece of plywood to it. Drape an old shirt, a sweater, and a heavy coat over it and take a shot with your favorite gun at several ranges. You?ll have your answer. (Let me know how it works.)

Ray D.
 
It will be a few months before I get to the desert, but will do a field test.......will let you know ;) I'm  just concerned because I have 00 buck in the SG and dum dums in the 357. DO'nt want to hurt the innocent but want to kill the bad guys ???
 
Ray D said:
Some heavy duty rethinking.

Been talking and corresponding with a number of knowledgeable friends and acquaintences. Intriguing subject, it turns out, for that group. Real eye-opener! Have a few conclusions. Have a few tentative, sort of semi-conclusions. Got a lot of surprises!

My frangible stuff still isn?t in. If it doesn?t get here, pretty soon, going to buy some of another caliber and do a couple of experiments. ...[snip]

I ordered Glaser Blue 9mm from CheaperThanDirt.com back on 9/16 when I asked you about it before.  Got it in just a few days.
 
mfa: I was wondering how you did. Hope I didn't steer you badly. Do they show .38 in stock?

(Went there, myself. They don't have .38 available. The shortage of .38 is very puzzling to me! Really good prices!)

I may go to 9mm, or even to .380 just to have something to play with. Those I can get, here. Mind telling me what Cheaper Than Dirt prices the stuff at? Anything else you know would be appreciated, too.

Ray D

 
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