PERSONAL SECURITY IN YOUR R.V.:
- Thread starter Ray D1
- Start date
woodartist
Senior Member
New word...
, what exactly is it?
mfa
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Posts
- 2,125
What's the difference between frangible ammo and hollow-point "personal defense" ammo?
OP
OP
Ray D1
Senior Member
Woodartist: Wadcutter is flat, on the leading end of the bullet. It is used in competition target shooting. The round is usually less powerful, (you're shooting paper, after all) and makes neat round holes, easy to score. Gets its name from the neat round holes. Actually, that's wrong. Gets its name from the confetti on the ground, below the target - neat round "wads" of paper pressed onto cardboard backing from the target. Won't overpenetrate, if you hit the target.
Frequently recommended for shooters of smaller stature, sensitive to recoil, for personal defense use. Hits pretty hard for the power it has, and delivers what energy it has to the target, quite effectively. Shock wise, about as good as it gets.
Bruce: Might penetrate R.V. walls. Wouldn't have a lot of power left after doing that. Safer than standard ammo, for an R.V. I would think. I have no experimental info, to confirm that, but it does make sense. Won't penetrate a stick house wall, with any power left. I've seen drywall, after being shot with wadcutters. Neat round hole.
mfa: Frangible is a generic term. It refers to any round that breaks up, when impacting a solid surface such as metal or glass. Hollow Point is also a generic term, descriptive of its appearance.
Personal Defense Ammo is a term owned by Federal, an ammo manufacturer. Their "hollow points" are brand named "Hydroshocks." They do not disintegrate upon impact. When the nose of the bullet begins to pass through moist (Hydro) tissue, it causes the bullet to expand, slowing it down in the target so that it stops there. The expanded size delivers the "shock," quite well. almost all of it is passed to the target. Won't overpenetrate, but you have to score a hit, for the bullet to stop. Otherwise, it keeps on going.
Personal Defense Ammo (PDA) is a lighter bullet, lighter powder load, partly to reduce recoil, but it uses the Hydroshock design. It is touted as safer, because it is less likely to overpenetrate, endangering innocent people. Other manufacturers have similar designs.
For contrast, a hunting round, usually a "silver tip" or a "soft nose" will pass completely through a man sized target, and keep on going with lethal force, still in it. That is "overpenetration." Not a good choice for personal defense.
Ray D.
Frequently recommended for shooters of smaller stature, sensitive to recoil, for personal defense use. Hits pretty hard for the power it has, and delivers what energy it has to the target, quite effectively. Shock wise, about as good as it gets.
Bruce: Might penetrate R.V. walls. Wouldn't have a lot of power left after doing that. Safer than standard ammo, for an R.V. I would think. I have no experimental info, to confirm that, but it does make sense. Won't penetrate a stick house wall, with any power left. I've seen drywall, after being shot with wadcutters. Neat round hole.
mfa: Frangible is a generic term. It refers to any round that breaks up, when impacting a solid surface such as metal or glass. Hollow Point is also a generic term, descriptive of its appearance.
Personal Defense Ammo is a term owned by Federal, an ammo manufacturer. Their "hollow points" are brand named "Hydroshocks." They do not disintegrate upon impact. When the nose of the bullet begins to pass through moist (Hydro) tissue, it causes the bullet to expand, slowing it down in the target so that it stops there. The expanded size delivers the "shock," quite well. almost all of it is passed to the target. Won't overpenetrate, but you have to score a hit, for the bullet to stop. Otherwise, it keeps on going.
Personal Defense Ammo (PDA) is a lighter bullet, lighter powder load, partly to reduce recoil, but it uses the Hydroshock design. It is touted as safer, because it is less likely to overpenetrate, endangering innocent people. Other manufacturers have similar designs.
For contrast, a hunting round, usually a "silver tip" or a "soft nose" will pass completely through a man sized target, and keep on going with lethal force, still in it. That is "overpenetration." Not a good choice for personal defense.
Ray D.
Karl1
Senior Member
A wadcutter is a flat-nosed bullet normally used for target shooting. It cuts a clean 'wad' thru a paper target, which allows overlapping shots to be more easily identified and scored. They usually have a lighter powder load and the muzzle velocity seldom esceeds 800FPS.
A frangible bullet will break up when contacting soft material such as muscle or fat; a hollow-point has a greater mushrooming effect than a solid point bullet, so the stopping power is greater; all other things being equal.
A frangible bullet will break up when contacting soft material such as muscle or fat; a hollow-point has a greater mushrooming effect than a solid point bullet, so the stopping power is greater; all other things being equal.
woodartist
Senior Member
SO the wadcutter is a flat nose bullet with less powder? Don't think I have seeen those. My .357 has the hollow point and for target practice I use cheap reloaded .38's ;D
Thanks Ray
Thanks Ray
OP
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Ray D1
Senior Member
Hey Karl! I stepped on you!? ?;D
Edited to explain a discrepancy:
I said a frangible breaks up upon hitting metal or glass. Karl said it breaks up, upon hitting soft tissue. Both are true. It breaks up upon hitting soft tissue, scattering pieces, increasing the soft tissue damage. It breaks into much smaller pieces, "almost dust" upon hitting glass or metal, on any solid surface. That avoids penetrating the walls of an airplane, or an R.V. Incidentally, it also avoids a rickochet, another hazard for innocent people.
As I understnd it, it is manufactured by pressing a quantity of lead powder into a bullet shape, under immense pressure. There is no glue. so it breaks apart quite easily.
Ray
Edited to explain a discrepancy:
I said a frangible breaks up upon hitting metal or glass. Karl said it breaks up, upon hitting soft tissue. Both are true. It breaks up upon hitting soft tissue, scattering pieces, increasing the soft tissue damage. It breaks into much smaller pieces, "almost dust" upon hitting glass or metal, on any solid surface. That avoids penetrating the walls of an airplane, or an R.V. Incidentally, it also avoids a rickochet, another hazard for innocent people.
As I understnd it, it is manufactured by pressing a quantity of lead powder into a bullet shape, under immense pressure. There is no glue. so it breaks apart quite easily.
Ray
Karl1
Senior Member
No, I was late!
Thanks for clarifying the frangible part; guess I didn't explain it as well as you.
Karl1
Senior Member
You'll recognize one when you see it. Some look like they have no bullet in them at all, while semi-wadcutters will have only a small amount of 'lead' beyond the casing.
woodartist
Senior Member
So, I'm guessing that they are a bit more quiet also???
OP
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Ray D1
Senior Member
Yeah. You're burning less powder and the bullet is not supersonic.
Ray
Egad! I just rememberd! When I have shot Wadcutters, outside, I can see the bullet in flight! You can actually see the rise, and the drop (the trajectory) as it nears the target! You ought to try some, just for the fun of it!? ?;D ;D ;D
The trajectory actually is parabolic, and you can see that, watching the bullet!
Ray
Egad! I just rememberd! When I have shot Wadcutters, outside, I can see the bullet in flight! You can actually see the rise, and the drop (the trajectory) as it nears the target! You ought to try some, just for the fun of it!? ?;D ;D ;D
The trajectory actually is parabolic, and you can see that, watching the bullet!
OP
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Ray D1
Senior Member
WARNING
Decided to take my own advice, and went out to purchase some frangible ammo, planning to dedicate two guns to motorhome defense. Seemed sensible, and after thought, very sensible. Who needs their RV walls penetrated by a bullet?
I?ll keep this as short as possible.
You can call me Rip VanWinkle! I haven?t been out shooting in close to a year, and since I have quite a bit of ammo, haven?t bought any in longer than that.
Went first to a gun store specializing in home and personal defense weapons and ammo. I am well know, there, and was waited upon by a clerk I knew.? (Actually hadn?t been there in quite a while.) Told the clerk what I wanted. They don?t carry it. However, they had a variety of frangible ammo.
The worst was some ?Fang Face? stuff that will penetrate metal, such as the door of a car, and break up with lethal force, upon entering soft tissue on the other side of the door. OK, that?s ?frangible.?? But the design does exactly the opposite of what I want it to do!
The ad, attached to the box showed a very colorful imagined battle with terrorists, in a desert mountain scenario. The caption was ?Use the same ammo our Special Forces use, behind enemy lines!?
I have cooled off a bit, since seeing that. I?m better, now. My comment, ?Why buy that stuff? Wanna play that game? All four of our armed forces branches are advertising for help, these days. They will train you to use that stuff, right, take you somewhere where you can use it, and give you all of that you want, for free!?
The rest of what they had was otherwise inappropriate for my purpose.
Went to a store that specializes in hunting sports. They didn?t have it either. Clerk, (real young guy) said they could order it. Looked it up in his book. Frowned, got a face that looked like he was chewing on a pickle and said, ?This is no good at all! Won?t penetrate worth a *****! What do you want it for??
Showed me the same stuff I have at home. I have more of it than they do! Took me over to the hunting ammo. Wrong choice! I may go back and order some of what I want. Decided that I need to get onto the net and do some research, first. I am not good at that, and it will take a while.
Karl: I didn?t check to see if you can still buy bird-shot.
I will be back, when my information is more up to date. Meanwhile, if you plan to act upon advice given above, be cautious. Take a knowledgeable person with you, or research it on the net. It?s buyer beware. Maybe someone else, here, is more up to date than I am.
Ray D
Turned out easier than I thought. Google "Frangible Ammunition." Got a world of stuff, there. Most manufacturers make it, apparently. The more modern promotion is that the ammo uses no lead, these days, and is therefore more environmentally friendly. However, the main issue of importance here is that it is less likely to penetrate walls, or ricochet, endangering innocent people. Be sure you pay attention to the performance information. Now, as to where to buy it, I'd check for a friendly, trustworthy, knowlegeable local gun dealer. Good luck.
Decided to take my own advice, and went out to purchase some frangible ammo, planning to dedicate two guns to motorhome defense. Seemed sensible, and after thought, very sensible. Who needs their RV walls penetrated by a bullet?
I?ll keep this as short as possible.
You can call me Rip VanWinkle! I haven?t been out shooting in close to a year, and since I have quite a bit of ammo, haven?t bought any in longer than that.
Went first to a gun store specializing in home and personal defense weapons and ammo. I am well know, there, and was waited upon by a clerk I knew.? (Actually hadn?t been there in quite a while.) Told the clerk what I wanted. They don?t carry it. However, they had a variety of frangible ammo.
The worst was some ?Fang Face? stuff that will penetrate metal, such as the door of a car, and break up with lethal force, upon entering soft tissue on the other side of the door. OK, that?s ?frangible.?? But the design does exactly the opposite of what I want it to do!
The ad, attached to the box showed a very colorful imagined battle with terrorists, in a desert mountain scenario. The caption was ?Use the same ammo our Special Forces use, behind enemy lines!?
I have cooled off a bit, since seeing that. I?m better, now. My comment, ?Why buy that stuff? Wanna play that game? All four of our armed forces branches are advertising for help, these days. They will train you to use that stuff, right, take you somewhere where you can use it, and give you all of that you want, for free!?
The rest of what they had was otherwise inappropriate for my purpose.
Went to a store that specializes in hunting sports. They didn?t have it either. Clerk, (real young guy) said they could order it. Looked it up in his book. Frowned, got a face that looked like he was chewing on a pickle and said, ?This is no good at all! Won?t penetrate worth a *****! What do you want it for??
Showed me the same stuff I have at home. I have more of it than they do! Took me over to the hunting ammo. Wrong choice! I may go back and order some of what I want. Decided that I need to get onto the net and do some research, first. I am not good at that, and it will take a while.
Karl: I didn?t check to see if you can still buy bird-shot.
I will be back, when my information is more up to date. Meanwhile, if you plan to act upon advice given above, be cautious. Take a knowledgeable person with you, or research it on the net. It?s buyer beware. Maybe someone else, here, is more up to date than I am.
Ray D
Turned out easier than I thought. Google "Frangible Ammunition." Got a world of stuff, there. Most manufacturers make it, apparently. The more modern promotion is that the ammo uses no lead, these days, and is therefore more environmentally friendly. However, the main issue of importance here is that it is less likely to penetrate walls, or ricochet, endangering innocent people. Be sure you pay attention to the performance information. Now, as to where to buy it, I'd check for a friendly, trustworthy, knowlegeable local gun dealer. Good luck.
woodartist
Senior Member
Well Ray, I'll still go with my 12 gauge, buckshot, and the pistol grip. There was a a fellow who beat a guy to near death in Salt Lake city during a home invasion, with a baseball bat.........got me to thinking
OP
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Ray D1
Senior Member
Woodartist: I won't argue with what works for any practiced person. Your pistol 12 has at least a 18" barrel and with the grip is probably 26" at least, overall. If you can maneuver it, good for you. I have no doubt that you can. I am not coming into your RV, unannounced! Happy to visit if you know I'm coming. Not afraid of your 12ga. Happy to camp, right next door.
You have the advantage of less chance of over-penetration (depending upon your choice of shot size) and good shot coverage at RV ranges. Your lethal range is probably less than 75 yds. All good.
I have selected two .357 S&W snubbies, carrying .38PDA. One for me and one for DW. I have a more serious 9mm Glock 26 for extended work, rather than a reload on the snubbies. Feel quite comfortable. I also have insurance, a dog, and an attitude. Works for me. Actually, the dog is the biggy for defense. The insurance means I don't care what the BG does, damage wise. The attitude is that I will not donate blood to the BG's cause, at lest not from me and mine. Recently, I decided to go with frangible for the .38s. Got a bad first run. Will try again. New Cabellas store, in town. Guess I'll have to check them out.
For a newbie, the pistol grip shotgun is not a friendly weapon. Firearms enthusiasts, here, don't need my advice. People who are looking to custom fit a weapon to their standards can use the help. Some are interested in personal security, whatever the cost to the BG. Others are interested in the safety, but are unwilling to do great harm to an intruder, or collateral harm to anyone. And, many if not most are unwilling to spend a lot of time on it. They are, really, my target audience.
Appreciate your position, and respect it.
Ray D
You have the advantage of less chance of over-penetration (depending upon your choice of shot size) and good shot coverage at RV ranges. Your lethal range is probably less than 75 yds. All good.
I have selected two .357 S&W snubbies, carrying .38PDA. One for me and one for DW. I have a more serious 9mm Glock 26 for extended work, rather than a reload on the snubbies. Feel quite comfortable. I also have insurance, a dog, and an attitude. Works for me. Actually, the dog is the biggy for defense. The insurance means I don't care what the BG does, damage wise. The attitude is that I will not donate blood to the BG's cause, at lest not from me and mine. Recently, I decided to go with frangible for the .38s. Got a bad first run. Will try again. New Cabellas store, in town. Guess I'll have to check them out.
For a newbie, the pistol grip shotgun is not a friendly weapon. Firearms enthusiasts, here, don't need my advice. People who are looking to custom fit a weapon to their standards can use the help. Some are interested in personal security, whatever the cost to the BG. Others are interested in the safety, but are unwilling to do great harm to an intruder, or collateral harm to anyone. And, many if not most are unwilling to spend a lot of time on it. They are, really, my target audience.
Appreciate your position, and respect it.
Ray D
woodartist
Senior Member
Well Ray, I have 2 dogs...one with "attitude." I have some pistols but figure that if I have to be accurate, then the shot gun comes into play. It is about 14 inches and the pistol grip adds a bit. I've only had to display it once and when the pump was racked the guy went running away ;D You're welcome to visit any time, just don't sneak up on us Of course the dogs are a good judge of character and won't go "crazy" unless they perceive a danger. My alter ego I guess
I have some pistols but figure that if I have to be accurate, then the shot gun comes into play. It is about 14 inches and the pistol grip adds a bit. I've only had to display it once and when the pump was racked the guy went running away ;D You're welcome to visit any time, just don't sneak up on us Of course the dogs are a good judge of character and won't go "crazy" unless they perceive a danger. My alter ego I guess
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Ray D1
Senior Member
Ummmmmm............. Your barrel needs to be 18". Better check. ;D
woodartist
Senior Member
Yep, 18 1/4.......my error
OP
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Ray D1
Senior Member
I have my frangible ammo on order. After such a disappointing first attempt, a very heartening experience. Busy small store with more than a dozen clerks, a young lady already handling one customer asked if she could help me. (The other customer was filling out a form.)
I had decided on Glaser Safety Ammo, and asked her for that, in .38. She called a young boy over (14 or so) and told him what I wanted. He turned and went directly to a shelf, where I could see rows of Glaser ammo on hooks. (They come six to a package, in blister packs.)
He went directly to where the .38s would be, and the hook was empty. He came back and told ?Mom? that they were out of .38s, but had .357! (Hey, the kid knew that they are interchangeable in some guns!) I told her I couldn?t use .357. (I can but don?t want to.)
Mom turned to the computer/cash register, typed for a minute, then said, ?Sir: I have them on order but the warehouse shows not in stock. (She had ordered them, just then!) It?ll take a couple of weeks. May I ask what you want them for??
I said, ?Well, we have a motorhome.......? that?s as far as I got! Didn?t get to finish my explanation!
She burst out laughing! ?That?s a good reason! Pardon me, (she got serious, again) that?s a really good reason.?
She went on, ?I don?t think the Glassers will penetrate the exterior walls on a motorhome, but be careful about the interior walls. They are hardly denser than cardboard and the ammo might penetrate. If it does, it will be fragmented, but might still do minor injury to someone. The 38s are the best choice for that.?
After several days of going from store to store, talking to men who had no idea what I was talking about, a woman and a small boy, both, proved themselves knowledgeable and efficient. Go figure!
Ray D
I had decided on Glaser Safety Ammo, and asked her for that, in .38. She called a young boy over (14 or so) and told him what I wanted. He turned and went directly to a shelf, where I could see rows of Glaser ammo on hooks. (They come six to a package, in blister packs.)
He went directly to where the .38s would be, and the hook was empty. He came back and told ?Mom? that they were out of .38s, but had .357! (Hey, the kid knew that they are interchangeable in some guns!) I told her I couldn?t use .357. (I can but don?t want to.)
Mom turned to the computer/cash register, typed for a minute, then said, ?Sir: I have them on order but the warehouse shows not in stock. (She had ordered them, just then!) It?ll take a couple of weeks. May I ask what you want them for??
I said, ?Well, we have a motorhome.......? that?s as far as I got! Didn?t get to finish my explanation!
She burst out laughing! ?That?s a good reason! Pardon me, (she got serious, again) that?s a really good reason.?
She went on, ?I don?t think the Glassers will penetrate the exterior walls on a motorhome, but be careful about the interior walls. They are hardly denser than cardboard and the ammo might penetrate. If it does, it will be fragmented, but might still do minor injury to someone. The 38s are the best choice for that.?
After several days of going from store to store, talking to men who had no idea what I was talking about, a woman and a small boy, both, proved themselves knowledgeable and efficient. Go figure!
Ray D
woodartist
Senior Member
Real America ;D You don't want the .357 because they will penetrate more??? All I have are the .357 hollow points and might reconsider based on your comments....
OP
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Ray D1
Senior Member
You got it! Plus my airweight snubby J-Frame is a mean little gun. Hurts me, when I practice with it! Light weight, great for carry. Hardly know it's there. Just wicked when the rubber meets the road! Actually, somewhat meaner than a pistol shotgun!
By the way, for any who are interested, several stores had shot shells for handguns, every caliber right down to .22. You can still get them.
Ray D.
By the way, for any who are interested, several stores had shot shells for handguns, every caliber right down to .22. You can still get them.
Ray D.
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