Propane vs All-Electric Diesel Pusher With Aqua-Hot

[RV_Lee122]

New diesel pushers: some have the option of a propane tank, furnace, stove OR they are "all electric" with an aqua hot furnace (diesel) and no propane on board at all. I like the idea of just using the onboard diesel for heat but not the induction cook top, but there are ways around that inconvenience. I would be replacing the factory lead acids with a large lithium bank and plenty of roof top solar.

People that have had both or have had the aqua hot / Oasis did you miss your propane furnace?

Propane / All electric are options on the Tiffin RED 33AA which is the coach I'd be upgrading to

 

[Larry N.]

The Beaver I had (45' DP) had propane on board for use with the stoves (gas burners), but most else was electric, except for the Aqua Hot, which ran on diesel and/or electric, supplying unlimited hot water and furnace functions. I like it a LOT better than the propane furnaces and propane hot water in the Bounder I had, with the furnace having individual registers at various places throughout the coach, including in the basement, and being much quieter and more even heating than was true with the propane. Also, hot water was available without the boiler of the Aqua Hot just from engine heat when on the road.

When I traded the Beaver for the smaller Newmar Ventana (38') with its Oasis I had an all electric version (except the Oasis which also ran from both diesel and electric, with similar benefits to those of the Aqua Hot, though it was slightly louder than the AH, but still WAY quieter than the propane units. and also would use engine heat when available.

So NO, I didn't miss the propane furnace- in point of fact, if I had to go back to the propane units I'd very much miss the hydronic systems with their quieter operation and more even heating, plus the basement heating that didn't require anything special to keep the basement warm (the basement registers were set to keep it at 45º).

Batteries on the Beaver were awkward to maintain, but those on the Ventana were on a slideout tray that brought all eight batteries out for easy maintenance. And I ran these Flo-rite Pro-fill devices to make battery maintenance even easier -- 5-8 minutes once a month, or so, with a centralized watering port. Loved it.

Note that DW liked the induction cook tops, and our microwave was a good convection oven, as well, baking biscuits and such, even a pineapple upside-down cake with excellent results. We didn't miss the unevenly heating propane oven AT ALL.

 

[RV_Lee122]

The Beaver I had (45' DP) had propane on board for use with the stoves (gas burners), but most else was electric, except for the Aqua Hot, which ran on diesel and/or electric, supplying unlimited hot water and furnace functions. I like it a LOT better than the propane furnaces and propane hot water in the Bounder I had, with the furnace having individual registers at various places throughout the coach, including in the basement, and being much quieter and more even heating than was true with the propane. Also, hot water was available without the boiler of the Aqua Hot just from engine heat when on the road.

When I traded the Beaver for the smaller Newmar Ventana (38') with its Oasis I had an all electric version (except the Oasis which also ran from both diesel and electric, with similar benefits to those of the Aqua Hot, though it was slightly louder than the AH, but still WAY quieter than the propane units. and also would use engine heat when available.

So NO, I didn't miss the propane furnace- in point of fact, if I had to go back to the propane units I'd very much miss the hydronic systems with their quieter operation and more even heating, plus the basement heating that didn't require anything special to keep the basement warm (the basement registers were set to keep it at 45º).

Batteries on the Beaver were awkward to maintain, but those on the Ventana were on a slideout tray that brought all eight batteries out for easy maintenance. And I ran these Flo-rite Pro-fill devices to make battery maintenance even easier -- 5-8 minutes once a month, or so, with a centralized watering port. Loved it.

Note that DW liked the induction cook tops, and our microwave was a good convection oven, as well, baking biscuits and such, even a pineapple upside-down cake with excellent results. We didn't miss the unevenly heating propane oven AT ALL.

Thank you! I had actually forgotten how uneven my current propane furnace is. Its SO uneven that I only use it to keep the RV at 60F overnight and to heat it up to 70F in the morning. For normal heating I use a Buddy heater because its a far more steady temp.

I am sold on the aqua hot

 

[SargeW]

I have had both, a DP with propane, and my last DP was an all electric Tiffin Allegro Bus. At first glance it looks like the all electric is less problematic, but that is not exactly true. The DW had the induction cook top and loved it. But it was a true 240 volt cook top. The cheaper ones are 120 volt and do not work near as well. That was due to the lower power, you cannot run both burners at full heat at the same time. The if you are dry camping you will need to run the generator to use the cook top. I had a 10,000 watt Onan so power was not an issue, it is just the reality of an electric rig.

The issue with the Aqua Hot was a love/hate relationship. Yes, you didn't need propane, but in order to have hot water available you had to be plugged into shore power while at the camp ground. It will run on the diesel burner, but that gets old as it can be fairly loud. Especially if you are dry camping at night you have to have the diesel burner running to supply either heat or hot water. And the hot water takes precedence over the heat function. So if someone is taking a shower and you are running on diesel or electric, the heat will turn off during the water usage.

The other issue is that the Aqua Hot takes annual maintenance to keep it running correctly. That usually runs $200-300 for a Aqua Hot tech to service it. I learned to do my own because I thought that the price was ridiculous.

Then if you want to have a fire pit or a BBQ in the rig, you will need to carry propane with you anyhow. Those little green bottles don't last long with a fire pit, so I purchased a Horizontal propane tank I could carry in a storage bay.

So like most things in life, there is usually a trade off for every choice that you make.

 

[Kevin Means]

Our Winnie Tour DP has a fairly large propane tank, but the only thing that uses propane are the three stovetop burners. In the last 14 years, I've only filled the propane tank once, and it's still half full now. I love our Aqua Hot system - diesel and electric heat, and the hot water reservoir heats up while driving.

 

[RV_Lee122]

Wait - to get hot water from it the heat / furnace turns off?

 

[Larry N.]

Wait - to get hot water from it the heat / furnace turns off?

No. Engine heat provides the heat for hot water when driving, thus not needing the diesel or the electric to maintain hot water. Propane doesn't even enter the picture for anything except the stove burners. That engine heat also runs the furnace heat going to the exchangers while driving, although it's still possible, though not normally necessary, to run the diesel burners in addition.

Aqua Hot is well named, as it uses a separate (non-potable) hot water/antifreeze system to distribute the heat where needed, being heated by the engine running, by the diesel fueled burners, or by the electric "burner" heat, as needed. Note that the electric comes either from the generator or shore power.

 

[SargeW]

Yes! Attached is page 22 from the 2017 Tiffin Allegro Bus owners manual. I don't make this stuff up!

AQUA-HOT HEATING SYSTEM The Allegro Bus features an Aqua-Hot heating system (Figure 3-1) that provides a continuous, on-demand supply of domestic hot water, as well as interior zone heating when and where it is needed. Both heating features are accompanied by a unique VDC-powered diesel-fired burner and a VAC-powered electric heating element (120 VAC). These two heating sources maintain the temperature of the Aqua-Hot’s solution of water and anti-freeze. If interior heat and hot water are both needed at the same time, the hot water will take precedence over the interior heat, causing the interior heat to shut down and turn off until the waterflow is turned off from water sources. The surge tank (Figure 3-2), which is located in the basement, should be routinely inspected to make sure the anti-freeze fill line stays in the acceptable zone. If the anti-freeze becomes low, you must add the recommended anti-freeze stated in the Aqua-Hot’s owner’s manual. If anti-freeze is totally depleted from the surge tank, a switch will be released inside the main Aqua-Hot tank, disabling the system from operating. Anti-freeze will then have to be added to the tank to reactivate the switch and allow the system to operate. If batteries become discharged and the Aqua-Hot system is activated, the system will automatically shut down before batteries are totally discharged. Once power is restored to the batteries, the system must be reset by depressing the reset button on the black panel of the surge tank (Figure 3-3).For detailed operations on using the Aqua Hot Heating System, refer to the owner’s manual in your Tiffin Owner’s Information Package.

Engine heat will heat the boiler fluid while the engine is running, as when you are driving down the road. When stopped and shut off, as in a RV park that goes away. That is why the Aqua Hot requires constant power as in shore power, or generator power, or diesel to keep the boiler fluid hot. It's not magic, it still requires something to keep it hot. If allowed to cool off, it will take a significant time period to heat the boiler fluid enough to provide heat.

 

[SargeW]

The other issue with an Aqua Hot (or any brand that uses a diesel burner) that the DW just reminded me about is that the bottom line is that in order to use the AH without 120 volt power you will still be burning diesel fuel. And the one thing that ALL diesel burners produce is fumes. Normally not a huge deal unless a wind shift blows the fumes back to the rig. Or even worse is if your neighbors diesel burner blows at your patio area while sitting outside. Like I said, it's all about trade offs.

Similar to when I used to run that 10,000 watt Onan diesel generator when needed. It too produced a fair amount of diesel fumes. Not a big deal unless the wind shifted.

 

[Lou Schneider]

And the one thing that ALL diesel burners produce is fumes. Normally not a huge deal unless a wind shift blows the fumes back to the rig. Or even worse is if your neighbors diesel burner blows at your patio area while sitting outside.

Or the wind blows your diesel fumes at your neighbor's rig or patio area. Do they make a Gen-Turi for the Aqua Hot?

 

[SargeW]

No, not that I am aware of. I do believe though that there was a warning in the AH manual that warned against putting anything over the exhaust vent as it would cause over heating of the burner element.

 

[DutchmenSport]

I think in the end, it's your decision which way to go. It depends upon what camping style you prefer. If you are a full hook-up with unlimited electric included, that is a different experience than someone boondocking completely off grid.

If you do a mix of campsites, from primitive to full hook-up, and you do different seasonal camping, from 100 degree Summer to -20 degree winters, then you probably want a camper that will accommodate any situation. A camper will need multiple heat sources, electric and propane. It will need multiple cooking surfaces, propane and electric. It will need adequate holding tanks for longer term non-hook-up camping, and then the ease of a connected sewer hook-up.

We do not have a motor home, but currently have a fifth wheel. For us, this set-up is ideal as it has both a propane furnace and a heat pump in the AC, and we still have a couple electric ceramic space heaters. We have a propane stove top and oven, but also electric griddles and frying pans.

We travel (almost full time) in all conditions. We carry a generator, portable water tanks, and a sewer tote because we just never know where we'll end up or what the situation may encounter. But, we want to be prepared for any event so nothing takes up by surprise. If one convenience does not exist, it's no problem, we simply adjust and continue on.

That is my best answer to your question. It all boils down to the type of camping you do. If you ALWAYS park in full hook-up campgrounds with paid electricity, there is no need to have anything in your camper that requires propane. If not, then you'll need a good generator and a good solar system. Otherwise, propane appliances will save you on a freezing night.

Edit: considering you are considering a motor home that requires diesel to heat water and air temperature, that adds another dimension into the mix. It sounds like, from reading other posts, electricity is still required, even for diesel style heat for both water and room temperature.

Figure out your style of camping, the rest will follow.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

I've never understood the the desire to totally eliminate propane from an RV. Decades of ingrained fear of gas, perhaps? Or historical tales of poor propane performance in some circumstances? Today we have much enhanced electrical capability, both at campsites (50A service widely available) and off-grid (larger battery capacity, inverters, solar, etc). Taking advantage of those makes sense for many RVers, but IMO so does using propane where is provides capabilities not readily available via electricity. Propane simply makes sense as a fuel for some things, especially where alternate forms of off-grid electrical may not perform well.

 

[Kirk]

Propane simply makes sense as a fuel for some things, especially where alternate forms of off-grid electrical may not perform well.

Very well said!

 

[SargeW]

IMHO it was manufacturer driven. I know that Tiffin first started offering all electric on their high end coaches, as it was also a cost savings for them. Not paying for a propane tank, gas lines, and the savings in space, weight and labor all adds up. Pulling a few extra power lines is not a big deal. Propane dual fuel refrigerators are over double the cost of a 120 volt, or now 12 volt model.

 

[RV_Lee122]

Yes, in my opinion the ideal rig would keep a propane tank on board for cooking. I will be happy to move on from the propane fridge and furnace though.

 

[Terry97424]

I went with all diesel/electric as I don't like propane and having to figure out when to fill it. I have the Holiday Rambler Nautica, and love cooking with the induction cooktop as it does not heat up the RV or make condensation on the windows when cooking. The aqua hot works for me on either shore power or on the diesel. I have dry camped for 5 days and not had any problems with the RV providing us with hot water and also having to run the generator for the AC in the summer heat. Also when we had an RV with propane I always worried about the what if we were in an accident and they hit the area where the propane was.

 

[RayIN]

Gillig makes 40' all-electric city bus's, the nearby city has a new fleet of them which has been operating for 2 years now. Previously then had only 2 that had been operating for the past 6 years.
I've wondered why one of the major MH brands don't build a MH coach on the Gillig electric chassis.
The city stop n go traffic can't be much harder than cruising a highway at 60 MPH IMO.

As to propane-powered engines, they would be much more environmentally-friendly that other fuels; refilling at-say PFJ stations, would only involve the desk charging OTR state taxes. LP is not any more combustible than gasoline, so that's a wash.

 

[UTTransplant]

We really do prefer propane powered furnace and water heaters. The technology is robust and easily maintained, and if replacement is needed the costs are reasonable. Plus we don’t gas out our neighbors whenever the diesel heater turns on! Lots of users of AquaHot or Oasis systems don’t realize their exhaust consists of untreated diesel fumes, and those fumes usually exit out the driver’s side right into the next campsite! We have had multiple occurrences where we were forced inside because of the smelly exhaust next to us. And the burners are noisy outside too. Hopefully our rig lasts until we can no longer use it, because it is hard to find newer rigs with propane appliances, and we wouldn’t want anything else.

 

[RV_Lee122]

We really do prefer propane powered furnace and water heaters. The technology is robust and easily maintained, and if replacement is needed the costs are reasonable. Plus we don’t gas out our neighbors whenever the diesel heater turns on! Lots of users of AquaHot or Oasis systems don’t realize their exhaust consists of untreated diesel fumes, and those fumes usually exit out the driver’s side right into the next campsite! We have had multiple occurrences where we were forced inside because of the smelly exhaust next to us. And the burners are noisy outside too. Hopefully our rig lasts until we can no longer use it, because it is hard to find newer rigs with propane appliances, and we wouldn’t want anything else.

I've been beside a diesel rig and had to deal with the fumes before, very unpleasant, it was from his generator though. We were boondocked along the Colorado river though and we were all parked side by side.

My case for it would be out in Quartzsite alone not bothering anyone though, and if plugged in running it off electric.