Question on the BCC for a 2006 Fleetwood Providence

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Mavarick

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Jan 30, 2011
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I?m having charging problems on a 2006 Fleetwood Providence. The coach batteries stay charged and work fine. The chassis battery works on the alternator but not from the Freedom 458 inverter/charger when plugged in.
When using the MOM dash start switch it pulls in the Trombetta solenoid but the contacts inside must be junk as the chassis battery voltage stays the same unless I manually jump the top terminals.
It?s a DP using Intellitec model 886-100 BCC. Except when pushing the MOM I am not getting a hot signal to the solenoid to pull it in even with the batteries at the correct voltage (>10.5v) and I cannot find the BIRD unit. It is not in the compartment with the BCC like I thought and I?m looking for something like the attached pic. I?m assuming that is the unit being used on this rig. The print I have shows it as a separate bi-directional isolator relay delay controller. I?ve also looked under the front dash and out front above the genset but didn?t see anything.
So besides the solenoid being bad I was wondering if anyone knew where they could be hiding the BIRD. I called Fleetwood to begin with and they thought the rig had an Rv Products system so I hesitate to call them back with this question.
Thanks
 

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I don't think you will find an actual Intellitec BIRD in your coach.  I think it is, indeed, an integral part of the BCC circuit board.  I don't have the actual diagrams for your model BCC, but to my knowledge only the very basic (single disconnect BCC) didn't incorporate the BIRD function. 

Do you have the trouble shooting procedures for your BCC functions?  I may have them.

What is the P/N of the circuit board inside the BCC?
 
Thanks Lou, I was beginning to think that myself as it shouldn?t be this tough to find and I would have expected it in the same bay as the BCC and solenoid.
My other thought was that it was tucked inside the BCC behind the board but I really don?t think there is enough room with the battery disconnect solenoids in there too.

The info on the board is ?diesel w/auto ign reconnect 00-00886-100? and I asked Intellitec to email me the service manual and troubleshooting info. In the manual it shows the bi-directional relay as a separate item and says to ?replace it? if you don?t have a 12v signal to the solenoid. I don?t have that signal to the solenoid but I would think if the BIRD was part of the control board they would just say ?replace the board? correct?

I?m going to try and attach the manual for the system and a pic of the circuit board. It?s not marked on anything I have but there is a small rectangular item on the board that got hot enough to burn the paper around it. You can see it just to the right of the purple and blue fuses in the top center of the pic. My guess is that it is probably the bird unit I?m looking for but I?m not sure, might be something else. I also don?t have any way of testing it that I can see short of pulling the board but at first glance it looks pretty bad.
 

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If it is similar to my BCC 861-100, the model 886-100 should have two relays integral to the unit but they are individually replaceable components.  Mine has a large relay known as the "Big Boy" when sold separately and that is what couples the two battery banks for charging or when the Aux Start switch is activated. It's a 300 amp relay, hence its name. [The second relay is the Battery Disconnect solenoid.]

The BCC will not engage the relay unless  the House batteries at 13.3dcv or more. A weak battery in the house bank will prevent the BCC from closing the charging relay.

There is also a fairly common electronic component failure that prevents the BCC from ever closing the Big Boy relay. I've had mine fail twice, so I finally installed a Xantrex Echo Charge unit to provide chassis battery charging from the house system. The Trik-L-Charge unit from Galaxy is another alternative (less sophisticated but also much less expensive).
 
That component near the burned paper appears to be a diode and may very well be a part of the BIRD function.  I'm not familiar enough with that board to even guess.

An easy way to check the operation of the BIRD is to follow this procedure;
  • Unplug from shore power and stop engine
  • Turn on your head lights for several minutes.  (this will ensure that your chassis battery drains a small amount)
  • Turn on some interior lights for several minutes  (this will drain the coach batteries a small amount)
  • You should measure NO voltage on the charge/isolator/aux start solenoid.
  • Plug into shore power (ensure that your charger/converter is charging at least to the 13.2 volt level)  The BIRD should apply voltage to the solenoid.
  • Measure the voltage on each large terminal of the solenoid to ensure they are at  the exact same potential.  (this is to check that the internal contacts actually closed and charge is being applied to the chassis battery)
  • Unplug from shore power  (with some internal lights still on, the solenoid should deactivate when the coach batteries drop below 12.2 volts, so there will be some delay in dropping out)
  • Start the engine  (when the alternator voltage reaches 13.2 volts the solenoid should receive voltage from the BIRD and activate the solenoid)
  • Repeat the previous measurements or observe that the coach batteries are also being charged from the alternator.
  • Stop the engine.  With some lights still on, especially the head lights, (the solenoid will deactivate when the chassis battery drops below 12.6 volts) after a short delay.
If the above tests fail to deliver the activation voltage to the solenoid, there is a problem with the board.

If the solenoid contacts don't close (or the solenoid won't even activate click) the solenoid is defective.
 
Gary, our two units are very similar from what I can see. The two disconnect relays are for the main and house battery disconnects. The large ?big boy? relay you refer to is what I have in this one only it is a Trombetta brand (I called it a solenoid above, habit). Mine also couples the battery banks when activated.
My problem is that it only activates when the MOM switch on the dash is pushed. The BIRD relay which activates this automatically to charge the chassis battery is what is not working and I cannot find an external BIRD relay as the service manual leads one to believe. I have a feeling that it is the burnt spot in my pic above and not a separate item as I originally thought. I also think this is the component that kept burning out on your board as well. BIRD may not be the correct terminology here but I?m not sure what Intellitec refers to it as when mounted on the board, if that is where it is located.
The house batteries are at app 14v so the BIRD relay should engage the Trombetta relay and charge the chassis battery. Everything else seems to be working fine so I am leaning towards the Trik-L-Start solution as well as a replacement board online is $211.00. I just want to get with Intellitec once to see if they can confirm the BIRD location on the main board as Lou suspected.
Lou, I will perform a few more tests this weekend to confirm everything but pretty much did as you describe here. The charging for both batteries seems to be taking place from the alternator ok, and on shore power the house battery is charged ok (to 14v). The Trombetta is working with the MOM but has bad contacts. It will not pull in at all by the auto BIRD function side. If the unit had an external BIRD it is app $65 but being part of the board as we suspect the Trik-L-Start will be the solution as everything else seems to work fine. I have to verify all this though again this weekend. I?ll let you know what I find, thanks.
 
I don't see any disconnect relays in that photo - just what looks like a couple circuit breakers and the visible fuses. Where are the two disconnect relays you mentioned? Packaged in the box with the BCC circuit board, or elsewhere?

I suspect there is a burned out diode under that brown spot, however. And that would likely negate the chassis charging function.
 
Gary RV Roamer said:
I suspect there is a burned out diode under that brown spot, however. And that would likely negate the chassis charging function.

.....and just how can you make that assumption without knowing what the function of that diode is?
 
Experience with my own Intellitec BCC, Lou. Have had two similar failures.  Besides, I said "suspect" and "likely", in recognition that it is an merely a [educated?] guess.

Technically, the silicon component that failed in mine wasn't a diode either, but most of us aren't electrical engineers so I'm playing a bit loose with the terms. Mea culpa.
 
Below I have posted a photo of my Intellitec BCC model 861-100 showing the Big Boy relay which is part of the unit. If your model 886 BCC had the relay, it would be obvious!

The red circle highlights the electronic component that fails in mine.
 

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Gary,

Is that a Transistor of some type??  If so is there room to add a heat sink to the upper tab?  The addition of a heat sink would be my first recommendation.  After that would be to check the capacitors in the associated circuit and make sure they are good.  You might want to get the data sheet for the device and check to see if the cap's are the proper type and size.

Generally the devices fail from too much heat-lack of proper heat sinks, unsuppressed transients-failed or wrong sized capacitors and/or too much current for their rating which causes metal migration inside the device.

Just a few thoughts as many of the failed RV electronics I have seen have one or more of these problems.
 
Jim,
That's the component you soldered in for me a year or two ago. I don't think there is much room for a heat sink or anything. I still have the board you repaired cause I found a new one online. But the new one failed after 16 months too, so I just re-connected the Echo Charge that I had been using as an interim.
 
Sorry for the response time here guys, just getting back but did work on it again for a bit today. Simply put the house batteries only charge off the Freedom 458 when plugged into shore power and the chassis batteries only charge off the alternator. No other charging combination works.
Gary, if you look at my pic above, the two disconnect relays you are speaking of are located below the board in the BCC box. On the same post, just above the pic I also attached the service manual pdf for my system that might explain it better than I am here. I can see them with a mirror and they are working fine as disconnects.
The big boy relay you have is the very same thing here only this one is mounted externally of the BCC and it is a Trombetta model solenoid. Same function just a different name. It actually pulls in (clicks) when you push the dash switch (the MOM) to jump the battery banks. The problem is the contacts inside are bad as the voltage on the top terminals never changes when the switch is engaged so this needs to be replaced. Murcal has one with silver contacts for about $48 so I will replace this. http://www.murcal.com/Catalog/Bear-DC-Contactor-Family/114-1211-020
I can?t identify the burnt piece in the pic but it certainly seems to control which batteries are charging and when. I?m calling Intelletec to confirm exactly what it is (if they will tell me) but ultimately I?m going to install a Trik-L-Start unless they prove to me there is a reasonably priced solution I?m not seeing.
 
The problem I see with the trickle start/charge solution it that you don't regain your aux start function nor do you recover the ability to charge in both directions (i.e., chassis from converter and house from alternator).  You can only select one or the other. 

BTW - I'm not sure why Gary has the model BCC with the aux start/charge solenoid installed inside the BCC.  Both Intellitec and RV-CP have made models (for DPs), with the solenoid as an external entity, for many years.  Their gas model BCCs all have the solenoid mounted behind the board with the disconnects.

Possibly, when you replace the solenoid, you will find that it was the only problem.


 
Lou, you are 100% correct in that I will not have the ability to charge in both directions. When I complete this with the Trik-L-Start the chassis will charge from the Trik-L-Start when parked and on shore/genset power. When traveling the chassis battery will charge from the alternator but not the house batteries. That is the down side but acceptable for the owner because of the cost of the board etc.
I will also replace the Trombetta solenoid so the MOM switch on the dash will work for a jump start if needed.
I also was surprised to see Gary?s relay inside the BCC as it seems that every DP BCC has this relay outside the BCC to help with heat etc. It also seems that every MH mfr seems to do it a little different and I don?t really know if they have a good reason except that they want to be different!
I was also able to get through to Intellitec today. The rep told me that the ?BIRD? function I was looking for was not external but built into the board. I was glad to get that cleared up anyway. I explained the burnt rectangle on the board and he would not or could not tell me what it was, only that the board would have to be replaced no matter what.
So, in conclusion the cost for the repair will be app $150 less doing it this way as compared to doing the board which might only last another 18 mo like Gary?s.
 
We have a 2006 Bounder 38L DP.  The BIRD is located under the bed behind the main breaker panel.  Hope this helps.
 
I also was surprised to see Gary?s relay inside the BCC as it seems that every DP BCC has this relay outside the BCC to help with heat etc.

You have led a sheltered RV life!  Intelletec has made a dozen or so different BCC designs and even customizes them for different RV manufacturers (they are an OEM supplier, not an aftermarket retailer). Several of the designs include the relays within the box.  It's too bad Intellitec no longer provides all their service manuals onlne - it can be quite an education to look through their document archive!  Here is a partial list of BCC models provided by a vendor for their products, Fleming Sales.

http://www.flemingsalesoem.com/intellitec/BatteryControls.htm

They also make what they call Battery Charge Controllers, which are a bit less functional than Battery Control Centers. And they utilize external relays. These are usually called BIRDs in RVing venues - "Bi-directional Isolator Relay Delays".

http://www.flemingsalesoem.com/intellitec/BatteryCharge.htm
 
I'm not sure I would consider myself as having led a sheltered RV life, but I will admit to having a life outside the RV world. ::)

While we were discussing the BCC in a FW Providence, I had forgotten that you have one of the Big Three. (Eagle, Dream & Tradition).  Those coaches have a BCC designed to support features specific to them, but I wasn't aware that they put the isolator back inside the box.   
 
Thanks Firedoc, I did happen to look there as a last resort kind of thing before I found out this unit was built into the board.
Gary, the reason for that statement was twofold. As I said above it seems like all the systems are a bit different between mfr just so they can be different. When I originally contacted Intellitec for the correct service manual they led me to believe that the gas units solenoids are located inside the BCC and the diesels (board part numbers that end in -100) are usually external of the BCC as the one I am working on.
Right after getting that info I found contradictions to that looking at other Intellitec service manuals I found online, go figure. Because of heat it seemed to make sense to me to locate the larger ones outside the BCC but there certainly does not seem to be a ?standard?. That might also be contributing to the board failures you have had?
I did get the parts ordered today so hopefully we should have everything installed sometime next weekend. I?ll keep you posted.
 
I think the "relay in the box" design is just for the convenience of the RV manufacturer. Everything that is required comes in one package and basically you just attach the battery wires. The big BCC boxes like mine also have power distribution & fuses for slide motors & furnaces plus a solar panel charge controller, so it's an easy drop-in install.

I've never observed that the BCC box gets very warm inside. There is no good reason for a continuous duty solenoid to exude much heat - the "Big Boy" 200A relay is a latching type and more than adequate in size to carry 200A continuous without heating up. It is rated for up to 1200A in short (30 second) bursts! Unlike the crappy Trombetta relays, the Big Boy is reliable and cool.
 
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