Reliable, light weight fifth Wheel

[Mtrowbridge]

I have been shopping for a reliable lightweight fifth wheel and the more I shop the more confused I get.  Anyone with thoughts would be appreciated.  I also am trying to keep length to 30 ft or under.

 

[SeilerBird]

Reliable and light weight do not belong in the same sentence when discussing RVs. Cutting down on the weight will definitely affect reliability. An RV is a house rolling down a bumpy highway at 60 miles per hour. Make it lighter and it will fall apart quicker. Even the lightest fivers need a 3/4 ton and most need a 1 ton. If you have a 1/2 ton and think you will find a fiver that you can tow you will be disappointed. There is really no way anyone can call any RV reliable. They are all just problems waiting to be addressed. 

 

[Alfa38User]

Welcome!!

There are a few around but what kind of fifth wheel will depend very much on the vehicle you wish to tow it with. A fifth wheel places 20-25% of its gross weight in the bed of the truck so you will most likely run out of CCC or cargo carrying capacity (payload) long before "small" or "light weight" is required.

For example, the F150/1500 series of trucks will not be able to carry most 5th wheel trailers, if any, so if that is the reason behind the "light weight" request, then you may have to re-think and look at travel trailers which deposit only 10% of their gross weight on the tow vehicle.

You would be well advised to look at the tow vehicle first and figure out its cargo carry capacity before even looking at fifth wheels so you will know what weights your vehicle can handle safely. Use the Gross Weight (VGWR) of the trailer for your estimates. The CCC or cargo carry capacity (payload) of most modern trucks (2007+) is shown on a sticker on the drivers door post and will reflect the capacity of THAT particular truck taking into account all the options it came with from the manufacturer.

HTH!

 

[grashley]

Welcome!!

There are a few around but what kind of fifth wheel will depend very much on the vehicle you wish to tow it with. A fifth wheel places 20-25% of its gross weight in the bed of the truck so you will most likely run out of CCC or cargo carrying capacity (payload) long before "small" or "light weight" is required.

For example, the F150/1500 series of trucks will not be able to carry most 5th wheel trailers, if any, so if that is the reason behind the "light weight" request, then you may have to re-think and look at travel trailers which deposit only 10% of their gross weight on the tow vehicle.

You would be well advised to look at the tow vehicle first and figure out its cargo carry capacity before even looking at fifth wheels so you will know what weights your vehicle can handle safely. Use the Gross Weight (VGWR) of the trailer for your estimates. The CCC or cargo carry capacity (payload) of most modern trucks (2007+) is shown on a sticker on the drivers door post and will reflect the capacity of THAT particular truck taking into account all the options it came with from the manufacturer.

HTH!

Exactly correct!

Welcome to the Forum!

Look for the yellow border placard on the driver door latch pillar which will state the max weight of passengers and cargo shall not exceed XXXX pounds.  This is the most weight your truck is designed to carry, based on its weight as it left the factory.  While Ford offers a HDPP, or heavy duty payload package, which can push payloads over 3000# for a regular cab truck, it is a rare option.  Most ? ton pickups have a payload between 1200# and 1700#, depending on body and trim.  A small light weight 8,000 GVWR FW will place 1600# in the truck bed.  Add a 150# hitch, and you are overweight before you sit down in the cab.

A light weight FW is like any other, except the manufacturer has cut weight and costs by using cheaper, lighter weight components.  Think thinner plywood on the floor and roof, smaller frame rails, lighter, cheaper quality cabinets, less insulation.
This is similar to asking for a luxury sedan for under $20K new.  They do not exist.

 

[Pugapooh]

Welcome.

Do you have a truck all ready?  Have you figured in all the passengers,gear and general "stuff" you'll be taking along? 

 

[SpencerPJ]

I wonder if the RV industry is aware of this awesome product called Carbon Fiber?  :   
Seems they could really improve strength and reduce weight in one sentence.

But like others have stated, seems the better quality units are built of stronger, heavier materials.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

"Light" for a 30 foot 5W is around 10,000 lbs. Is that "light" in your book"? What is your max weight limit?

Note that most 1/2 & 3/4 ton trucks run out of payload before reaching their max tow rating because of the 5W pin weight. When shopping, use 20% of 5W GVWR as the estimate and you should be close. The actual pin weight will probably be closer to 25% of the actual loaded weight, but 20% of GVWR usually gives an adequate estimate.


Building an RV lighter always reduces its reliability to some extent.  Unless made with ultra-expensive materials like an aluminum frame and carbon fiber panels, anyway.

 

[FBO Cookie Monster]

I own an F150 and am seriously considering a fifth wheel. At least by the numbers it can be done.
I have an HDPP with a payload of 2500 lbs, (note, that is 200 MORE than a diesel 250?s!) and tow rating of 11400 lbs. The trailer I am considering has a pin weight of just under 1300lbs at the dealers lot, so what, maybe 1700 loaded for bear? And gross max?s out 10k. ( either a Jayco 24.5 or 25.5, or Cougar 25). Add in 100 lbs for an AUH hitch, and 500 for myself, wife, and dog, and another 100 for ?stuff? in the truck.
Near the limit? Yes.
Under  the limit. Yes.
Compared to some of the overloaded rigs I?ve seen in my 4 months of actively looking at them, doing pretty good. I?ve seen a F 250 diesel yanking a 40? fifth wheel, and the owner said he was within limits, and I rekon he was at least 1000 over on payload. Maybe 2000. Whatever flips your flopper I say.

Anyways, still have not made a choice yet as to a fifth wheel or TT. I need to stay under 30?, and want to maximize what I can do.

 

[Pugapooh]

I own an F150 and am seriously considering a fifth wheel. At least by the numbers it can be done.
I have an HDPP with a payload of 2500 lbs, (note, that is 200 MORE than a diesel 250?s!) and tow rating of 11400 lbs. The trailer I am considering has a pin weight of just under 1300lbs at the dealers lot, so what, maybe 1700 loaded for bear? And gross max?s out 10k. ( either a Jayco 24.5 or 25.5, or Cougar 25). Add in 100 lbs for an AUH hitch, and 500 for myself, wife, and dog, and another 100 for ?stuff? in the truck.
Near the limit? Yes.
Under  the limit. Yes.
Compared to some of the overloaded rigs I?ve seen in my 4 months of actively looking at them, doing pretty good. I?ve seen a F 250 diesel yanking a 40? fifth wheel, and the owner said he was within limits, and I rekon he was at least 1000 over on payload. Maybe 2000. Whatever flips your flopper I say.

Anyways, still have not made a choice yet as to a fifth wheel or TT. I need to stay under 30?, and want to maximize what I can do.

But can that F150 STOP with all that weight?  Where are you getting your numbers from?

 

[FBO Cookie Monster]

Stop?
I would think the engineers who came up with the ratings ran performance calculations that resulted in their ratings. They certainly wouldn?t just make stuff up.
My numbers come from the rv manufacture for dry weight.
My numbers for the truck come from the yellow sticker. When I was buying the truck, there was a diesel 250 right next to it that had almost 300 lbs less payload, a fact that should someday get me a beer on a bet, eh?

 

[SeilerBird]

Stop?
I would think the engineers who came up with the ratings ran performance calculations that resulted in their ratings. They certainly wouldn?t just make stuff up.
My numbers come from the rv manufacture for dry weight.
My numbers for the truck come from the yellow sticker. When I was buying the truck, there was a diesel 250 right next to it that had almost 300 lbs less payload, a fact that should someday get me a beer on a bet, eh?

You just do not understand safety. You can't safely pull a fiver with a half ton.

 

[kdbgoat]

I don't understand. We all keep saying do the math and check your numbers. If a person has done that, and they're in their limits, why would someone tell them they can't? The big error I see with Cookie Monster is not using the fiver's GVWR, and not using at least 20% of that for pin weight. If he can do that and stay within his trucks limits, what's wrong with that? I do agree that he will need to check his GCWR for the truck, and stay within that limit also. If he stays within that limit, asking "But can you stop it?" is moot point. The brakes are designed for the GCWR. The brakes on todays 1/2 ton trucks are far superior to the brakes on 3/4 and 1 ton trucks that were made 10 years ago, but no one asks those owners "but can you stop it".

 

[FBO Cookie Monster]

I don't understand. We all keep saying do the math and check your numbers. If a person has done that, and they're in their limits, why would someone tell them they can't? The big error I see with Cookie Monster is not using the fiver's GVWR, and not using at least 20% of that for pin weight. If he can do that and stay within his trucks limits, what's wrong with that? I do agree that he will need to check his GCWR for the truck, and stay within that limit also. If he stays within that limit, asking "But can you stop it?" is moot point. The brakes are designed for the GCWR. The brakes on todays 1/2 ton trucks are far superior to the brakes on 3/4 and 1 ton trucks that were made 10 years ago, but no one asks those owners "but can you stop it".

I looked hard at real world king pin weights of lighter fifth wheels. The Grand Design forum has a great thread dealing with the subject. If the dry weight of a Jayco 24.5 CKTS is 1250, and the tanks are on the axles or even behind for the FW, how much clothes can I add to the wardrobe to get the king over 1700 lbs? Answer: The real world pin weight is 1700 or so pounds, and it falls within the envelope.

I fly for a living, live and breath by weight and balance on any given day. I understand  keeping it in the envelope. That is exactly what I am doing here. The ludite thinking that some have is amusing. The HDPP is not your average F150, thicker frame, heavy duty axles, extra leaf springs, heavy duty 9.75 rear end, yada yada. But still I get the comments like those above. The brakes are bigger than 350?s from just a few years ago. Still get the ?Can?t do it? crowd, because they have an uninformed opinion. But like you, I ask, If Ford says I can do it, it falls green in every aspect, why is it exactly that I can?t do it?

 

[FBO Cookie Monster]

You just do not understand safety. You can't safely pull a fiver with a half ton.

I live and breath safety as I explained above. Seriously, please tell me how, when I am staying within the envelope on every spec, including rear axle weight, payload, total gcw, etc, I am ignoring safety?

 

[SeilerBird]

I live and breath safety as I explained above. Seriously, please tell me how, when I am staying within the envelope on every spec, including rear axle weight, payload, total gcw, etc, I am ignoring safety?

The two big problems are will the brakes stop the unit safely and how will it react to wind and passing semis. A lightweight 1/2 ton will have problems with both areas. It will probably do just fine stopping it on flat ground but how will it react coming down a grade in an emergency stop? The light weight will allow a semi to blow you all over the road.

 

[Oldgator73]

Everybody hold on for about 5-10 minutes. I?m making popcorn. Be right back.

 

[FBO Cookie Monster]

The two big problems are will the brakes stop the unit safely and how will it react to wind and passing semis. A lightweight 1/2 ton will have problems with both areas. It will probably do just fine stopping it on flat ground but how will it react coming down a grade in an emergency stop? The light weight will allow a semi to blow you all over the road.

Well, I guess I?ll find out. Plenty of folks towing with them, they can?t be all wrong? Some are overloaded, but I saw a 250 diesel with a  tripple axle, and they were, by multiple thousands of pounds on payload at least. With brakes bigger than previous generations 350?s I fail to see your argument though.

Is it your assertion that the engineers at Ford fudged the numbers to allow me to use their truck in their prescribed manor? They had no concept that someone would take them up on it?

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

It is almost inconceivable to me that the 5W you are looking at won't have a pin weight of 1800-1900 lbs when loaded.  The "dry weight" pin weight shown in the spec sheets is an extremely unreliable measure.  Maybe this time it's fairly accurate, but experience with many RVs says odds are against that.  For one thing, the spec sheet weights are for a bare bones configuration and no actual trailer is ever that light.  Further, dry weight is exactly that, no fluids of any sort. Even the residual water in tanks, lines and water heater will typically add 100 lbs.  How much cargo weight will you add?  Experience indicates somewhere around 700-1000 lbs for casual use. Not just clothes: pots & pans, a BBQ grill, lawn chairs, food & beverages, electronic gear, etc. etc. etc.  It adds up quickly, and it grows with every trip.


Have you looked at a 24.5 CKTS on the sales lot to see the actual numbers n the federal weight placard?  That would be "real world".
All that said, it appears "by the numbers" that your particular truck can do the job.  The truck's brakes are rated to handle the truck GVWR, so ought to be sufficient if you don't overload.  Whether you like the performance and handling when fully loaded may be another story, but only actual use will show that.

 

[FBO Cookie Monster]

I have, but can not find the picture I took of it. It was pretty close to the brochure weight, off by 130 lbs if I recall correctly. The only option that it had was four point auto leveling, the rest was standard equipped. I wish it had the 16? wheels, but alas.... So it might be 1300 on the pin minus propane and battery. I plan to upgrade that to lithium soon anyways.
I do know the water tank is behind the axle, so that won?t add to pin weight. And really, since total weight will not be an issue, not an issue with some in there anyway. Fresh behind axle, grey on, and black in front of if memory serves.  I have never RVd before, but maybe keeping a mind on ?stuff? going in front storage will be a good thing. Still, I doubt I would add enough to raise the pin 500 pounds.
I might invest in a tongue scale for grins. They are not too much money and might settle things one way or another.
Another reason I have it narrowed down to these trailers is the integrated 2? hitch on the back, i have a pair of ebikes that weigh about 125 (less when I remove their batteries) and that too would reduce pin weight. I do know too light of a pin is an issue too.

The trailer is in the town I work at, I will have to go get a pic of that placard again, thanks. https://www.jayco.com/tools/archive/2017-eagle-ht-fifth-wheels/245rls/

 

[kdbgoat]

I looked hard at real world king pin weights of lighter fifth wheels. The Grand Design forum has a great thread dealing with the subject. If the dry weight of a Jayco 24.5 CKTS is 1250, and the tanks are on the axles or even behind for the FW, how much clothes can I add to the wardrobe to get the king over 1700 lbs? Answer: The real world pin weight is 1700 or so pounds, and it falls within the envelope.

I fly for a living, live and breath by weight and balance on any given day. I understand  keeping it in the envelope. That is exactly what I am doing here. The ludite thinking that some have is amusing. The HDPP is not your average F150, thicker frame, heavy duty axles, extra leaf springs, heavy duty 9.75 rear end, yada yada. But still I get the comments like those above. The brakes are bigger than 350’s from just a few years ago. Still get the “Can’t do it” crowd, because they have an uninformed opinion. But like you, I ask, If Ford says I can do it, it falls green in every aspect, why is it exactly that I can’t do it?

I assume by that statement, that you didn't read my statement that you quoted, assuming that was the statement you were referring to, because if you did, you would understand I was supporting you.