Shopped around for new Toy Hauler today. 3 Questions...

[Carl L]

Curt,

Your messages here have been a real learning experience.  I speak from the standpoint of a really lousy bargainer who needs all the education he can get.

Thanks much.

 

[CurtRR]

You're welcome, Carl.? I never seem to see lousy bargainers.? My average customer could out-negotiate Condoleeza Rice, and a lot of them really enjoy it.? It's a shame that the car biz and apparently the RV biz require negotiating skills.? The reason, of course, is trade-ins.? You don't need negotiating skills to buy a table saw or a computer.? Just do your research and shop around.? But then there's no trade-in then.? The car biz used to be like the RV biz seems to be now, with big mark-ups to make handling trade-ins easy.? But they're pretty much gone now.? Lexus still has large markups because they haven't changed dealer agreements since they started.? At the time they figured if they were going to get dealers to invest in this new line they would set up an agreement that would make them rich.? Our line, on the other hand, has gone from 20% and no holdback to 7% payable gross with holdback.? It's a lot harder to give a person what he believes his clapped out, dented trade-in is worth (that's "excellent" on the Kelly Blue Book website, isn't it?) when you have 7% and need to keep a little.? In the old days you just put $X too much in the trade-in and didn't discount the new car? by that $X.? It's called over-allowing.? That's what RV Dealers do.?

When I started here if people asked for 10% on a replaceable car in stock with no trade, we had a deal.? They're still asking for 10%.

People will tell you they paid too much for their house or their wife's diamond, but they have to be able to tell people how they beat up six car salesmen to get the deal of the century.

I remember a customer coming in referred by a friend.? "I want the same deal he got."? I thought that would be easy and just gave him the same deal on the same car.? He was profiting from his friend's bargaining skills, and I was getting a quick, if? cheap, deal.? He blew his stack.? His friend had exaggerated his deal quite a bit.? Showing him his friend's contract didn't help.? He left in a Huff.

Unfortunately I don't sell Huffs.

 

[Carl L]

You won't see me.  I dislike the car dealer gaming so intensely that I go thru credit union affiliated brokers.  I do not claim to get the best deal by a long shot, but I do get civil treatment.

Last dealer car I bought was an used 'executive' car at the local Ford dealership.  I knew the book price on the unit and the window price on the vehicle was good to my eyes so I told the salesman that I would buy it.  We went to the manager who immediately started to work the system on me.

"I can't let that car go for that price.  Where did you get it from?"

"You folks painted it on the windshield."

"Oh."

Last car I bought from a dealership.

 

[CurtRR]

Credit union deals are good.? When I started in the 70's I sold Chevies in the area they filmed Urban Cowboy.? I made deals with all of the credit unions in the area for referrals.? Their members got cheap deals with no hassles.? I got numbers toward my volume bonuses.? Usually credit unions have pre-negotiated deals, and they watch out for their people.? They want us to send them the invoices and such.?

Brokers, on the other hand, are considered kind of the prostitutes of the industry, and that's too kind a word.? Prostitutes at least give you something for your money.? They're more like Saigon Bar girls.? They just take your money and don't give you anything for it.? Brokers expect to be paid by the dealer and by the client.? I've never seen a broker get a deal you couldn't get walking in the store after doing your homework.? Usually if you took out the broker's commission the deal would be pretty good.

 

[Ride Everything]

You won't see me.  I dislike the car dealer gaming so intensely..

I agree.  Some of these salesman really take the fun out of buying a car or RV.  For me, I'm in the investment finance biz, so numbers are what I do for a living.  It drives me absolutely insane when the salesman won't tell me how much (that's right), the fricken thing costs. All they want to do is go over my payments.  I eventually just back in to the cost using a financial calculator, but it really is unreal, they don't tell you how much the damn thing costs...especially when you have a trade-in, then it's worse.  I just want a good deal at a place with a good reputation and I'll be on my way....we'll see.

 

[Shayne]

All this about 7% is fine and dandy but then how can you buy a 34K truck or auto for 22K or less.  Might work on a couple of cars but not many.  I never sold imorted cars and never would.  I'm still the old buy American,as much as possible.  I won't and don't support foriegn makers regardless if I like them or not.  We drive Lincolns and would love to own a Jag and can afford too, but even tho it's owned by Ford, to me it's a nono. Believe the low discounts if you want, but with me it don't fly.  We talk about economy and how bad things are and then go give or $ to foriegn countries, to me that'a hypicritic.  But then that's just my opinion and the way I see it.

 

[CurtRR]

All this about 7% is fine and dandy but then how can you buy a 34K truck or auto for 22K or less.?

Rebates.? The auto industry is so addicted to rebates that most consumer publications say never buy without a rebate.? Some companies have tried to swear off rebates, but it didn't last long.? How can they afford these huge rebates? (Buy at employee pricing and get zero percent for 60 months!--that's a combination of rebates)? Answer:? The vehicles window stickers are inflated by the manufacturer enough to cover anticipated rebates.? Then rebates are applied as necessary.? When cars pile up, programs start.? When cars are hard to get, the programs disappear.? There are various programs for "leftovers."? GM used to add 3-5% discount(not sure now) when the next year's model was introduced.? Others go on a case by case basis.? It can get complicated, but it's not secret.

The auto industry has been on a rebate binge since September 11, 2001.? Car sales died in early 2002, so the 0% programs started.? Some companies are still doing it.? I didn't say every company is at 7%.? Lexus still has a big markup.? The Toyota importer here, Gulf States Toyota, used to add a bunch of "blue sky" to msrp in the form of paint protector/rustproofing/fabric sealant, etc. (Haven't looked lately).

But all of these things are public.? Several publications and internet sites print lists of rebates as soon as they come out.? This isn't true for RVs.? I haven't found a site with invoice prices on Holiday Ramblers or one telling me what Newmar is giving dealers to move left-over 2006s.? Getting a true "window sticker" has been difficult at some stores.? In the auto industry failure to post the Monrony sticker is illegal.

 

[Ride Everything]

All this about 7% is fine and dandy but then how can you buy a 34K truck or auto for 22K or less.  Might work on a couple of cars but not many.  I never sold imported cars and never would.  I'm still the old buy American,as much as possible.  I won't and don't support foreign makers regardless if I like them or not. 

IMO, it's behavior like this (I don't mean this in a bad way) that's helped shape what the American auto industry is today.  People were buying American cars regardless of whether they were crap or not. For Ford, let's say, what's the incentive to build a better car?  If people were buying my product solely because I was American, I sure as hell wouldn't mess with the logic. If you're buying American because you think they're building a better product, or simply building what you want, that's great!  But if you're buying solely because it's American, you're not doing anybody any favors.  It only helps them in the short run.  It's no different when our govt  puts tariffs on imported goods.  They're keeping innovative, efficient thinking and behavior down.  Trust me, by Toyota and Honda turning the tides on auto sales in the US from American to Foreign, it's forcing the US auto industry to act, rather than to react.  Not to mention FX companies don't have to pay the BS union stuff.  Unions were ok in the past, but if you're going to get paid $30 hour no matter what, what's your incentive to become more efficient?  Now, Ford knows the only way they're going to stay afloat is to become more innovative, more efficient, and they have to produce a better product.  And in the end, the consumer (us) will benefit.  It's already happening, that's why I'm driving my first Ford after 20 years of driving.

Anywho, this kinda got off the topic, sorry.

 

[Shayne]

Ever check a dealer profit and loss records.  They can't make that much money on 7% on every car.  That don't fly  A couple of models perhaps but those4 percentages con;'t cut it.  When you can a car for 32K and get up to 14 K  off sticker I think you/ll find a bit more than 7%  They might convience someone of that, maybe someone gullable.