Starting problem on 2000 Itasca Sundancer - Ford chassis.

[LarsMac]

So, background - During the Mrs' bout with COVID, we let the battery go dead.
I had the house system plugged in but no minder on the Chassis battery.

I could not even get it to take a jump.

Pulled battery, took it to CarQuest, where we charged it up, and tested it. The batt cable connectors and the posts had a lot of oxidation , which probably explained the problem with jumping it.

Battery fully charged, tested, and re-installed. The starter spins delightfully, but no start. Not even a burp. Just spins, and spins, and spins.

The Generator starts and runs fine. All the chassis electric runs. Tried a little starting fluid, and it didn't seem to care.
I checked the Emergency Fuel Shut-off. IT does not appear to have engaged.
I am thinking that the fuel pump should supply fuel pressure to both the engine and the Genny. so I think that the fuel pump is working. [Please provide sanity check, here.]

I've found no fuses to be popped, and visual inspection shows all looking good.
I'm holding on to the hope that it is something simple.
IT's an hour or more to civilization from where we are, so a service call could get pricey. I do have AAA and Sams, so I can deal with getting it towed, but would rather not.
I am going to pick up an OBDII reader after the Holiday and see if that provides any info.

If you know of something I may have overlooked, please let me know.

 

[Isaac-1]

You should have separate fuel feed for the generator which is located at about the 1/4 tank level so that you don't run out of gas while boondocking on generator power.

p.s. in my experience with other Ford vehicles of that era with Modmotor series engines, ie 4.6, 5.4 and 6.8L engine family is suspect the Fuel pump they were notorious about going out. I know one Ford I owned from that era went through 3 fuel pumps in the roughly 120,00 miles I owned it, and the relative I sold it to went through 2 more before he sold it to yet another relative, who went through at least 1 more fuel pump. Though in most of those cases the fuel pump did not fail outright, it just could not build enough pressure at higher engine load, so passing performance went to zero, and then ability to maintain highway speed went down.

 

[crawford 111]

check the fuel pump relay many time in box you will find another one the same try changing it with another one. when you turn ken on can you hear fuel pump engage.

 

[LarsMac]

check the fuel pump relay many time in box you will find another one the same try changing it with another one. when you turn ken on can you hear fuel pump engage.

Well, That is a good question. When I turn the key, I hear nothing, but the fuel tank is 20 some feet to the rear, behind the Drive wheels.
Son and family showed up tonight for Xmas.
I can crawl under there, and have him turn the key on, while I listen.
I will also look around to see if I missed a relay or breaker, too.

 

[CharlesinGA]

Switch key on while listening, pump will run for only about 15 or 20 seconds and then, seeing no engine rotation, will shut off. I suggest switching the key on, wait for the pump to cycle, then key off for 30 seconds and then key back on again, repeating this cycle several times in quick succession. This will push fuel up to the engine. My ole ford ranger leaks fuel out of the system if allowed to sit, so I have to do this once or twice to get a quick start. Given the distance involved, I would do this several times to get the fuel to the engine, then try a full start.

Charles

 

[Ex-Calif]

If you tried starting fluid it's time to check the spark.

I keep one of these in the tool kit.

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[John Canfield]

Moved to Motorhome board from WInnebago.

 

[Kirk]

The starter spins delightfully, but no start. Not even a burp. Just spins, and spins, and spins.

With a fuel injected engine that sounds like a fuel pump problem. Your generator has it's own fuel pump so it is no indication that the one for the engine is working. Since your engine is fuel injected, starter fluids typically do not do much for you, in my experience. When I had that very symptom with our F53 chassis(Ford) after sitting for a month the problem was that a rat had gotten above the fuel tank and chewed through the wire harness to the fuel pump. When I tried started fluid it changed nothing.

Switch key on while listening, pump will run for only about 15 or 20 seconds

The fuel pump runs based on pressure. It will start if it has sat long enough for the pressure to bleed down and then stop when operating pressure is reached. You may be able to detect that sound of have someone stand next to the fuel tank to listen for it, but if the pressure has not blead off it doesn't run so hearing it would mean that it works but not hearing it may not be due to it not working.

 

[LarsMac]

Update. We confirmed that the fuel pump is functioning as expected.
I had suspected that would be the case, as when we had fed Ether into the carb while cranking, if there was any kind of spark, we should have seen a couple of cylinders pop.
We'll have some more testing equipment next week.
Living in the boonies has its disadvantages.

 

[Kirk]

when we had fed Ether into the carb while cranking,

Since the 2000 F53 is a fuel injected engine, there is no carburetor so I assume you are spraying into the breather? The Ford V-10 has a Schrader valve on the back of the fuel rail that you can easily test for fuel by depressing it to see if fuel comes out.

 

[LarsMac]

Since the 2000 F53 is a fuel injected engine, there is no carburetor so I assume you are spraying into the breather? The Ford V-10 has a Schrader valve on the back of the fuel rail that you can easily test for fuel by depressing it to see if fuel comes out.

I misspoke. Yes, It was the air intake.

 

[Utclmjmpr]

HUURRAAAYY for diesels..>>>Dan

 

[NY_Dutch]

HUURRAAAYY for diesels..>>>Dan

Until you get the bill when one doesn't start...

 

[NY_Dutch]

If you tried starting fluid it's time to check the spark.

I keep one of these in the tool kit.

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Buy Spark Plug Tester in-Line for Automotive Car Lawnmower Ignition System Coil Engine Coil Tester Diagnostic Tool 6-12 Volt (Pack of 2): Spark Plug & Ignition Tools - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

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That device works fine on lawn mowers, etc., but not on the coil on plug (COP) system used on the Ford V-10.

 

[Kirk]

I hope that you will keep us posted when you figure out the problem and have it running again.

 

[LarsMac]

That device works fine on lawn mowers, etc., but not on the coil on plug (COP) system used on the Ford V-10.

Well, there's a point. Our Lincoln has coil on plug type system, as well.
I need to look into how those coils are energized, then.

 

[Utclmjmpr]

In 50 years of owning and driving diesels,, I have yet to have one not start,, it's all about knowing your equipment and proper maint..>>>Dan ( Being a mechanic doesn't hurt.)

 

[CharlesinGA]

The fuel pump runs based on pressure. It will start if it has sat long enough for the pressure to bleed down and then stop when operating pressure is reached. You may be able to detect that sound of have someone stand next to the fuel tank to listen for it, but if the pressure has not blead off it doesn't run so hearing it would mean that it works but not hearing it may not be due to it not working.

While I am not familiar with the F53 in particular, I have messed with enough Ford fuel injection systems to know that I have NEVER seen any fuel injection system where the pump starts and stops based on pressure. When the engine is running the pump runs full time and excess pressure is relieved via a pressure relief on the fuel rail that returns to the tank. It may SEEM like it is on a pressure switch, but it is actually on a timed cycle prior to the start.

When you first turn the key on, the computer immediately commands the pump on, then starts looking for engine rotation. Since you only turned the key on and are not cranking, the computer commands the pump off after about 15 seconds. (This is a built in safety feature to prevent the pump from running if the engine is not turning) That was the point I was trying to make. The bleed valve back to the tank sometimes does not seal good and after a long time in storage the fuel drains back to the tank. Cycling the key on waiting, then off waiting, then on, etc is a way to run the pump without cranking the engine and does push fuel up to the engine, thus filling up the lines and fuel injection rail, so you get a good clean start when you do crank it. No sense grinding on the starter for a prolonged period of time just to get the fuel pump to move fuel 20 ft.

I realize the point is probably moot since the OP has determined the pump is functioning. No fire after using starting fluid is most likely something such as a crank position sensor gone bad, and the computer doesn't know the engine is rotating or where it is in the rotation cycle so the pump may not be running and the plugs are not firing. The Coil On Plug used by Ford and many other car makers can be troublesome as they get too hot. I know the similar COP system used on the Ford V-8's such as the 5.4L will start failing one at a time, and the best thing to do is change them all.

Ford has given up on the COP with the new 7.3L V8 (Godzilla) as they used coils on the top of the valve covers with short spark plug wires down to the plugs, thus getting the coils up away from the manifold heat. They did experience wire failures early one, but it was a manufacturing defect caused by a sub contractor, and the problem has been resolved.

I hope you'all don't get upset with me for posting a link to another forum (if its not OK then edit it out) but I did stumble into this while doing some "Googling" (is that a verb?). There is at least one wiring diagram posted and discussion about what the crank position sensor controls vs the cam position sensor.

Triton V10 injectors not firing

Charles

 

[Alvie]

So, background - During the Mrs' bout with COVID, we let the battery go dead.
I had the house system plugged in but no minder on the Chassis battery.

I could not even get it to take a jump.

Pulled battery, took it to CarQuest, where we charged it up, and tested it. The batt cable connectors and the posts had a lot of oxidation , which probably explained the problem with jumping it.

Battery fully charged, tested, and re-installed. The starter spins delightfully, but no start. Not even a burp. Just spins, and spins, and spins.

The Generator starts and runs fine. All the chassis electric runs. Tried a little starting fluid, and it didn't seem to care.
I checked the Emergency Fuel Shut-off. IT does not appear to have engaged.
I am thinking that the fuel pump should supply fuel pressure to both the engine and the Genny. so I think that the fuel pump is working. [Please provide sanity check, here.]

I've found no fuses to be popped, and visual inspection shows all looking good.
I'm holding on to the hope that it is something simple.
IT's an hour or more to civilization from where we are, so a service call could get pricey. I do have AAA and Sams, so I can deal with getting it towed, but would rather not.
I am going to pick up an OBDII reader after the Holiday and see if that provides any info.

If you know of something I may have overlooked, please let me know.

Have you checked to make sure you connected all wires after installing battery. There may be a fusible link that got shot in boosting.

 

[LarsMac]

I just came across this old thread.
Just to close off the thing, I offer an update.
Short story, the problem was, indeed, the fuel pump. The noise that son heard when I switched on the ignition key was the water pump, it seems.
Anyway, once we resolved that, I found the lead to the fuel pump, and found that the pump was not drawing any current.
Getting it repaired was an adventure all its own. there was not a shop within 20 miles that had work space where the Fuel tank could be dropped to gain access to the pump. We had to tow it 40 miles to a shop where they had a truck pit.
Being in the Boonies can be a problem.