The EVs with the best range.

[old RV guy]

Yes, but which do you think will perform better in the hills at the equal weight? EVs have no gears to shift. That is because of the exceptional torque. Even the Tesla Semi has no gears to shift. No need, even when loaded to max at any speed, including when in the hills.

It is very common for me to see large diesel trucks that can only do around 30 MPH uphill near Donnor Summit. You're not going to have that issue with an EV truck carrying the equal weight. They will speed by the diesels.

Much like an ICE engine, get less range if you're getting better performance. And the EV will give much better performance. With that comes more consumption.

IOW, the difference is the diesel will give less reduction in range at the cost of performance. The EV will give better performance at the cost of range.

-Don- Reno, NV

I will concede that a $100,000 EV pickup will perform better on the climb to Donner Pass. I suspect as well, after the EV Silverado summits a few mtn passes towing its rated capacity of 12,500 lbs and with that 1800 lb. payload the total range should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 miles, give or take 15 miles. If he does make it to a charger, factoring in the time it will take him to unhook the trailer and wdh, charge the truck, hook the trailer and wdh back up and get underway, the ICE truck he overtook on Donner Summit shouldn't be more than 100 miles up the road.
Too add insult to injury, if the next charging station happens to be out of range the Silverado after summiting Donner Pass ( very quickly btw) will have to turn around and get back to the charging station he just left. Not unlike Sisyphus pushing that boulder up a hill only to have it roll back to the foot, time after time.

 

[blw2]

IMO, if they are going to brag about range, they should also mention the charging KW DCFC capacity. Charge speed Makes a larger difference in getting across the country than does range these days, in most cases. Range is normally only needed for great distances between charge stations. Go twice the distance and the charge will take twice as long at the same charge rate. Only means longer breaks to have more range in perhaps most cases.

For an example, a road charge on my Chevy Bolt (55 KW DC charging) can take five times as long as my Tesla (250 KW DC charging). Thats a big difference on a long trip for those who don't want to wait a long time for a charge.

Anyway, here are the best ranges of EVs.

-Don- Reno, NV

Yes, I've noticed that you sometimes have to dig to find the charging spec for EV's
There's another variable in this equation too. How much effect do you think the battery "cushion" has on it? What I mean is the unusable battery capacity. I remember back a few years ago when I bought my E-Tron, one of the wins for it was that it had a very flat charging curve. Audi has built in unusable battery at both the top and bottom ends... back in the day it's 150kW charger was among the fastest, and it would when charging time races because it wouldn't slow down as much as it nears 100% indicated.

I will concede that a $100,000 EV pickup will perform better on the climb to Donner Pass. I suspect as well, after the EV Silverado summits a few mtn passes towing its rated capacity of 12,500 lbs and with that 1800 lb. payload the total range should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 miles, give or take 15 miles. If he does make it to a charger, factoring in the time it will take him to unhook the trailer and wdh, charge the truck, hook the trailer and wdh back up and get underway, the ICE truck he overtook on Donner Summit shouldn't be more than 100 miles up the road.
Too add insult to injury, if the next charging station happens to be out of range the Silverado after summiting Donner Pass ( very quickly btw) will have to turn around and get back to the charging station he just left. Not unlike Sisyphus pushing that boulder up a hill only to have it roll back to the foot, time after time.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, I think that you might be missing the part about regeneration. Remember that it will gain a lot of charge back into the batteries on the way down the hill on the other side!

 

[old RV guy]

If I'm understanding your post correctly, I think that you might be missing the part about regeneration. Remember that it will gain a lot of charge back into the batteries on the way down the hill on the other side

I'd like to see the math on that. My guess ( heuristics) is that it would take a lot of regeneration to account for the battery drain doing what Don is proposing, racing up Donner Summit with an 1800 lb payload and towing 12,500 lbs. I suspect, but don't know, the gain during the descent would likely not nearly offset the loss during the ascent.

 

[DonTom]

Too add insult to injury, if the next charging station happens to be out of range the Silverado after summiting Donner Pass ( very quickly btw)

Won't happen there. DCFCs all over that area. There used to be way too many, almost every exit on I-80. But those were mostly EV-Go chargers, and they have been taken out of service. I think EV-Go is going out of business.

But now, a few miles down the hill in either direction from the summit there are many fast chargers for any type of vehicle, Truckee if going east, Cisco Grove if going west. There used to be free-to-use DC Fast Chargers right at the summit rest stops that worked, but they have been broken for years.

The distance from Cisco Grove , CA (every type of charge station & many) and over the summit to the many Truckee, CA charge stations (also every type and many) is 21.8 miles. You just do not need to worry about range in that area, but just a few years ago, it was a working charger every three miles or so in that area. That was way more than necessary, nobody will miss those other than the free to use DC fast chargers at the rest stop right at the summit that no longer work.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[old RV guy]

Won't happen there. DCFCs all over that area. There used to be way too many, almost every exit on I-80. But those were mostly EV-Go chargers, and they have been taken out of service. I think EV-Go is going out of business.

But now, a few miles down the hill in either direction from the summit there are many fast chargers for any type of vehicle, Truckee if going east, Cisco Grove if going west. There used to be free-to-use DC Fast Chargers right at the summit rest stops that worked, but they have been broken for years.

The distance from Cisco Grove , CA (every type of charge station & many) and over the summit to the many Truckee, CA charge stations (also every type and many) is 21.8 miles. You just do not need to worry about range in that area, but just a few years ago, it was a working charger every three miles or so in that area. That was way more than necessary, nobody will miss those other than the free to use DC fast chargers at the rest stop right at the summit that no longer work.

-Don- Reno, NV

The question however remains, after several hard pulls over several summits will the Chevy Silverado have 21.8 mi. left in it? Not to mention what's it going to do in the Smoky Mtns. where the lady at the checkout just called the sheriff, "There's a yankee out in the parking lot walking around mumbling something about plugging a pickup truck into a wall socket or something".

 

[DonTom]

I'd like to see the math on that.

Regen is usually more charging power than from a DCFC, but for much shorter times. While Tesla doesn't give a KW number (just a stupid line to show if gaining or losing power), my Chevy Bolt shows a true KW number for power used and gained in real time.

My Chevy Bolt shows regen in KW (which I like a lot better) and while it will only accept a DCFC at 55 KW, if using regen I get close to 100KW when slowing down as I go downhill. At a steady speed, it will depend on the speed as well as hill. Always best regen when going slower downhill or when slowing down (even if going uphill). The Bolt also adds to the KW if I use the brake pedal (unlike Tesla). But Tesla has a lot more deceleration regen and doesn't need much use of the brake pedal. But the Bolt has a manual regen control to stop with (a feature I really like). IOW, not much use, if any, of the brake pedal in either car when going downhill.

But coming mostly downhill from Donner Summit, the final outcome is to use only a small fraction of the battery. In some areas, I will gain a few miles of range where it is downhill for a long distance.

Nevertheless, you will still end up with the best range on level ground at a steady speed and then not use regen at all. But downhill does give me back a lot of the range loss I had from going uphill. But it will not be equal to the range loss from going uphill. IOW, EVs are not perpetual motion machines, but the regen adds to the total possible range.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[DonTom]

The question however remains, after several hard pulls over several summits will the Chevy Silverado have 21.8 mi. left in it?

Bottom line for that area is you may need to charge more often, but you will have the range regardless of what weight you're towing in that area. There are also many charge stations west of Cisco Grove as well was east of Truckee.

Frist DCFC west of Cisco Grove is Colfax, CA (31.4 miles).
First DCFC east of Truckee is Verdi, NV (22.3 miles) for Tesla,(which will also work for Ford, VW, Rivian) 8 miles more for other non-Teslas (30 miles east of Truckee).

And I am not even counting the many slow AC charge stations where a few miles can be added.

Charging stations are not an issue in that area. Same with most areas.

I see you will have to drive five miles to Richardson to find a charger, but they are now building a new one right there in Plano, TX. But those will be way too close to home to be useful when you buy your new EV when you can home charge.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[DonTom]

f I'm understanding your post correctly, I think that you might be missing the part about regeneration. Remember that it will gain a lot of charge back into the batteries on the way down the hill on the other side!

Also, the more weight is being towed, the better the regen will be when going downhill.

That is what makes this possible. It brings heavy loads downhill, but not back up the hill and will run forever with no other charging than from Regen.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[DonTom]

What I mean is the unusable battery capacity.

Yes, but the more unusable battery range is what helps the battery last longer, so in one way, its better, but in another way worse. It is nice to know both, but for charge times and range only use the useable spec.

And interesting thing about my Zero DSR/x motorcycle (which I will ride later today to Auburn) is that it will let me press a button to go more into the normally unusable range of the battery while charging. Not to be used too often but is handy for when an extra ten miles of range could be needed. When used, the SOC on the screen will show as "110% SOC" and takes a much longer charge to get there, as the KW charging rate will go from its normal 6.6 KW to less than one KW when at 109% SOC.

If I do not press the button (and I rarely do) it will stop charging at 100% SOC.

The bike will make it all the way to Auburn on a single charge to 100%, but barely on a cool day like today.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[old RV guy]

Yes, but the more unusable battery range is what helps the battery last longer, so in one way, its better, but in another way worse. It is nice to know both, but for charge times and range only use the useable spec.

And interesting thing about my Zero DSR/x motorcycle (which I will ride later today to Auburn) is that it will let me press a button to go more into the normally unusable range of the battery while charging. Not to be used too often but is handy for when an extra ten miles of range could be needed. When used, the SOC on the screen will show as "110% SOC" and takes a much longer charge to get there, as the KW charging rate will go from its normal 6.6 KW to less than one KW when at 109% SOC.

If I do not press the button (and I rarely do) it will stop charging at 100% SOC.

The bike will make it all the way to Auburn on a single charge to 100%, but barely on a cool day like today.

-Don- Reno, NV

They do SOC math like the RV factory I was at meaured quality. If the goal was only 10 defects per unit and there were only 10, then we were @ 100% and since 100% is perfect and perfect means no defects then we actually had zero defects. Make a new banner.
Or a Russian election where Putin got 125% and his opponent got -75%

 

[rvlifer]

Dont hold your breath on more charging stations. The new administration just killed a lot of funding for them so its gonna take longer now

 

[blw2]

The Bolt also adds to the KW if I use the brake pedal (unlike Tesla). But Tesla has a lot more deceleration regen and doesn't need much use of the brake pedal.

My Audi regens with the brake pedal, and coasts if I let off the accel pedal. I prefer this over one-pedal. I've not seen any actual numbers comparing the two types of logic, but coasting seems more efficient to me...and I think it's smoother and more intuitive way to drive. Probably more complicated to build though!

 

[blw2]

I remember a youtube video of a guy taking a Ford Lightning over some pass out in CO. Not towing as I recall but they used only a very tiny amount of battery to go something like 40-50 miles down hill

Here's a rivian towing downhill. gained 2% SOC going down. A lot of energy but not enough to offset the uphill

 

[old RV guy]

The mac daddy's however of regen tech
are F1 ( hybrids) and the fully electric E series race cars. In the beginning regen and MGU kinetics was not so much for boosting speed but extending the interval between pits. Now it's for boosting speed in short bursts ( usually for overtaking) however where it can be engaged on courses is highly regulated. There's a flashing light on the rear of the car to indicate, when it's engaged.
What's funny about all that for me is the very truism that a soccer mom with 2 kids in car seats in the backseat of most any EV sedan would literally waste most any piped up muscle car from a standing start in any street drag race. An EV's torque is all there, all the time, an ICE car has to develop torque.

 

[DonTom]

My Audi regens with the brake pedal, and coasts if I let off the accel pedal. I prefer this over one-pedal. I've not seen any actual numbers comparing the two types of logic, but coasting seems more efficient to me...and I think it's smoother and more intuitive way to drive. Probably more complicated to build though!

This is a long message, but I have no doubt it will be worth your time to read perhaps even a few times.

By default, in the Audi you have no deceleration regen.

But you do have it if you want it. Even if you want one pedal driving, you have it. See here.

"Audi e-tron
On the Audi e-tron you can set recuperation to manual (MMI -> Vehicle -> Efficiency Assistant -> Recuperation). Then every time you start a drive, set recuperation to the max with the steering wheel recuperation paddles, and then it will regenerate every time you lift your foot off the “throttle pedal” and works as “one-pedal-driving.”

BTW, your deceleration regen (any setting--including none) will slow your car down if you get too close to the car in front.

Now, I will explain a bit about regen. It will only help increase range when one of these three things are happening:

1. You MUST stop.
2. You MUST slow down.
3. Going downhill very slowly, even if at a steady speed (if you're going slow enough).

Perhaps a better way to word the first two is "less loss than not having deceleration regen." You lose most of gain after you accelerate again. But that is a lot better than an ICE car that loses efficiency on both ends. EVs gain a little when slowing down, but it is mostly lost again when speeding back up to the same speed you had.

Other advantages (a big one, IMO) is to NOT need to brake much when going down a steep, very curvy road. Many hills around here. EVs are safer in the hills because they will not speed up on their own when letting go of the pedal. That is if you have your regen on.

BTW, by law, there is a place where all truckers must stop to check their brakes WB on I-80 just before a very steep downhill section starts for several miles. There is a sign that say so and you can also read it here. If the day ever comes when all trucks are EVs, they will be able to remove that sign as well as the requirement.

If you set your EV for the very max regen, you can still have ZERO regen. This is done my never releasing to accelerator pedal and putting it at the exact spot where you get no regen gain and no power loss. For an example, my Tesla regen line changes color for power loss and power gain. But between the two where there is no color because there is no line. There is nothing to show when there is no gain and no loss. That is how you then coast even with a max regen setting. The only real disadvantage of too much deceleration regen is that you cannot let go of the pedal and coast. You can still coast the same but with the pedal halfway down or wherever. IOW, it is touchier, and you need to get used to it. And you should, IMO.

FWIW, I never heard of an EV car or motorcycle where you could not have deceleration regen. However, defaults are different between EVs. IMO, Audi was smart to do it that way, as by default as it gives ICE drivers what they expect during a test drive. But you CAN change yours, but you will have to get used to NOT letting go of the pedal when you want to coast. Your coasting will be the spot where no power is loss or gained.

BTW, I like the Chevy Bolt method of regen the best of all. Very low deceleration regen, but all you want by a level on the left side of the steering wheel. Adjust as you want to slow down or stop. Also has PROGRESSIVE regen with the brake pedal. Press the brake lightly and get 5 KW of regen. Press hard on the brake and get perhaps 85 KW of regen. I doubt if I would notice any difference if they removed the brake pads in that car.

Tesla's default is the opposite of yours. Max deceleration regen by default. But there is a setting to lower it, so it will feel much more like an ICE car.

So the choice is yours. If I owned your car, I would keep it at max regen except for when I have passengers. High regen usually doesn't have any effect on who is driving, but it can make passengers feel sick because of what happens when you do let go of the pedal. Such as in city driving. See here for Tesla Motion sickness. More common with Teslas because of their very high regen by default. But Tesla's way is to put everything at max by default, lower it if you want. Both with the power and the regen.

My Chevy Bolt has a button I need to press for more power. Even less power can feel smoother.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[DonTom]

Here's a rivian towing downhill. gained 2% SOC going down. A lot of energy but not enough to offset the uphill

His toad is not heavy enough to get the big gain to disconnect at the bottom of the hill and go back up not towing and down with a new toad each time and then NEVER need to charge other than from Regen.

It would be possible with a heavier load, but of course the toad cannot be brought back up the same hill and will require a new heavy load to go downhill again. Just as with that dump truck that brings extra heavy loads downhill only, but never uphill.

As I said in message 26, EVs are not perpetual motion machines. You simply get much better regen with a larger load when going downhill. "Cheat" by not bringing the same heavy load back up the hill and then regen will be all the charging ever needed. Such as towing very heavy vehicles one after the other all downhill. Go forever with only regen, no other charging will be necessary.

IOW, the very heavy loads downhill only runs the "regen generator" at many more KWs.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[DonTom]

Dont hold your breath on more charging stations. The new administration just killed a lot of funding for them so its gonna take longer now

Yeah, I heard about that. But there are only a few areas these days where they could use more chargers. The more the better, but not all that necessary these days.

I only want to see more charge stations because of my electric motorcycles that don't have as much range as do EV cars. More on lonely mountain roads, which I don't think was in the plans anyway.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[rvlifer]

Yeah, I heard about that. But there are only a few areas these days where they could use more chargers. The more the better, but not all that necessary these days.

I only want to see more charge stations because of my electric motorcycles that don't have as much range as do EV cars. More on lonely mountain roads, which I don't think was in the plans anyway.

-Don- Auburn, CA

If all you do is travel on interstates you may be right but for most of rhe country i believe they are gonna need a whole lot more before people stop being concerned about it

 

[DonTom]

If all you do is travel on interstates you may be right but for most of rhe country i believe they are gonna need a whole lot more before people stop being concerned about it

See here and where do you think they really need more charge stations?

Still, IMO, the more the better, but I see the biggest problem as being how they group them all together. Especially in this area near I-80. I wish I could remove more than half the charge stations located in Sacramento and decide for myself where they should be.

The problem is they will not make enough money in the locations I want on lonely mountain roads to support themselves. A DCFC can cost more than 150K$ to install.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[rvlifer]

where do you think they really need more charge stations

Almost everywhere. There are almost 200k gas stations in the US. Also, based on what you have posted here they need to standardize how to use them and how to pay for them. You shouldnt need any apos to use them.