Thread Summaries and Improved Titles

[Trivet]

The new title

Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites Behind?​

completely changed the meaning of the former title into something nonsensical.

Indeed. And I read the summary up until the "more" (I'll never click on "more" for any AI-generated content), and I can't begin to express how much I hated it. And I'm guessing the random "<br><br>" in it is some sort of HTML code, but surely AI can get that right.

 

[CamperAL]

Greetings,

To me, there isn't as much participation at this time, maybe more when people gear up later and RV but......lets shoot ourselves in the foot and discourage more participation.

I just shut down the AI in my Google account as it was becoming annoying. I don't need someone or thing building a file on me or what I think and do.

 

[UTTransplant]

Not much chat that i could see from a quick search on irv2.

I suspect it's being used as the other forums probably get a lot more traffic so takes the burden off their moderators.

I'm not a fan myself, it takes away the personality of the post.

Regarding the other forum, I think there is just so much activity there that people don’t notice it. You can’t just get good info from a “unread posts” list since there will be a few hundred since the last time you were there. I really don’t like the other forum much, so I don’t go there but maybe once a day.

And as for AI being less personable, yes! I am here because of the people, and I do not consider an AI a person.

Janet: Please, please, please get rid of at least the title changes. You’ll be losing even more visits if the character of the site changes.

 

[Janet H]

Interesting discussion here...

The AI summaries and title fixes are a new feature, and we're still learning. The function will continue to be adjusted.

Some of the nuts and bolts of this:

There is a need to improve titles. While the site team can update titles, it's a poor use of their time. Folks who post thread titles that say "Help" "newbie" or "It's Broke" do it innocently, but the result of a thread title like this is that there are fewer responses because there's a basic lack of opening info.

The second issue is that poor titles are bad for search. You can't use the forum search as effectively, and Google also can't effectively search. Poor search results again mean that there is less activity on a discussion.

The site team CAN edit a poorly formatted title, including the AI-generated versions. They can even lock a thread title so that it can't be updated by AI. AI is imperfect but it is useful; however it needs adult supervision.

As always:

• AI doesn't touch member posts and doesn't post in discussion threads.
• AI use is labeled

I agree that the replacement titles can use some tweaking, and I will see about further adjustments.

 

[Tom]

Interesting discussion here...

The AI summaries and title fixes are a new feature, and we're still learning. The function will continue to be adjusted.

Some of the nuts and bolts of this:

There is a need to improve titles. While the site team can update titles, it's a poor use of their time. Folks who post thread titles that say "Help" "newbie" or "It's Broke" do it innocently, but the result of a thread title like this is that there are fewer responses because there's a basic lack of opening info.

The second issue is that poor titles are bad for search. You can't use the forum search as effectively, and Google also can't effectively search. Poor search results again mean that there is less activity on a discussion.

The site team CAN edit a poorly formatted title, including the AI-generated versions. They can even lock a thread title so that it can't be updated by AI. AI is imperfect but it is useful; however it needs adult supervision.

As always:

• AI doesn't touch member posts and doesn't post in discussion threads.
• AI use is labeled

I agree that the replacement titles can use some tweaking, and I will see about further adjustments.

Thanks Janet, much appreciated.

 

[LarsMac]

Could probably try asking thread starters to think about that when naming their thread.
We could probably come up with better titles that the AI/LLM will.

 

[ennonne]

This is getting ridiculous. Seems like every thread is getting renamed. Surprised this thread's title hasn't been changed. Something like "Welcome to our new robot overlords" seems good. I'm sure it will be rewording posts soon. Maybe just let AI do everything.

 

[Tom]

Could probably try asking thread starters to think about that when naming their thread.

I've lost count of the times we've done that.

 

[Tom]

This is getting ridiculous. Seems like every thread is getting renamed.

Let's give Janet a chance to see if it can be fixed.

 

[LarsMac]

I think that expecting the search algorithms to find useful information through scanning thread titles will not produce the solution to the problem that you are trying to fix.
But that is just my years of troubleshooting data systems talking.

 

[RayIN]

Could probably try asking thread starters to think about that when naming their thread.
We could probably come up with better titles that the AI/LLM will.

I've suspected people do that on purpose ( no intelligent title) to make other members open the thread out of curiosity.

 

[Tom]

I've suspected people do that on purpose ( no intelligent title) to make other members open the thread out of curiosity.

That's not something I've previously thought about, but I seriously doubt folks do that. IMO an unintelligent title is more likely to cause folks to ignore the thread.

 

[jymbee]

I've suspected people do that on purpose ( no intelligent title) to make other members open the thread out of curiosity.

Exactly. And, guilty as charged.

The Title of the thread I posted awhile back complaining about how these campers I noticed left their firepit a real mess was "Disgusting".

This new AI "feature" changed that first to:
Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites trashed?

then that same thread was changed to:
Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites trashed?

I also posted a thread Titled:
Is overpacking a disease?

That was changed to:
Why Do We Keep Overpacking Tools and Gear for RV Trips?

Could the Titles I used have been more precise? Yep. Clickbait? Maybe, in a sense. But hey, I'm not sellin' anything! They simply reflected my overall sentiment at the time.

As I understand it the mods are aware of miscreants such as myself messing things up and are looking at ways to deal with the complaints about what some see as AI's heavy handedness.

I think we need to keep in mind that while this forum is of significant value to its many participants, it doesn't exist simply out of the goodness of the sponsor's heart. I expect one goal of the new AI features is to make information posted here easier to find, for members and search engines. The more info here comes up, the more eyes see it, the more ad revenue it generates. Pretty much WWW 101 for every website on the Internet.

So for now I'm going to take Tom's advice and wait to see if over time Janet might be able to tone the AI down a bit or not. Either way, even though I was one of the first to complain, thinking about it, this is not that big a deal either way in the large scope of things I need to worry about.

 

[Tom]

The Title of the thread I posted awhile back complaining about how these campers I noticed left their firepit a real mess was "Disgusting".

This new AI "feature" changed that first to:
Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites trashed?

then that same thread was changed to:
Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites trashed?

I also posted a thread Titled:
Is overpacking a disease?

That was changed to:
Why Do We Keep Overpacking Tools and Gear for RV Trips?

FWIW I changed a couple of the AI-changed titles, but they might have been changed to something else. I wasn't tracking them, just responding to complaints about them.

I expect one goal of the new AI features is to make information posted here easier to find, for members and search engines.

Yes, that's also what Janet explained.

Pretty much WWW 101 for every website on the Internet.

So for now I'm going to take Tom's advice and wait to see if over time Janet might be able to tone the AI down a bit or not.

 

[Trivet]

I've suspected people do that on purpose ( no intelligent title) to make other members open the thread out of curiosity.

That's what I've always thought, and jymbee confirmed that's why he does it. My typical reaction is to ignore the attempted manipulation. I'm fortunate to have an unusual amount of impulse control, and even I sometimes have to really work at "punishing" the person who uses that tactic because I'm curious about what they're saying behind the cryptic title.

That's why clickbait is so successful. Most people don't make any effort to not engage. And even I acknowledge that I'm not really punishing anyone by denying a "vague-poster" my one view, although I do have the hubris to think I might be able contribute to the conversation in a unique or substantial way, and if I deny them that because I don't even read their post then maybe it does cause a tiny bit of suffering...that they, of course, don't know anything about.

Operating on priciple is tricky business.

This new AI "feature" changed that first to:
Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites trashed?

then that same thread was changed to:
Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites trashed?

Try as I might, I can't find a difference between the two. So I copy-and-pasted them right on top of each other and get this:

Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites trashed?
Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites trashed?

(I did this only because I've become so sensitive to being gaslighted on the internet, where I end up doubting myself even though I don't see room for any doubt.)

I think we need to keep in mind that while this forum is of significant value to its many participants, it doesn't exist simply out of the goodness of the sponsor's heart. I expect one goal of the new AI features is to make information posted here easier to find, for members and search engines. The more info here comes up, the more eyes see it, the more ad revenue it generates. Pretty much WWW 101 for every website on the Internet.

Kind of. The goal is definitely eyes, but the even bigger goal is keeping the eyes there instead of going somewhere else. And if there are a lot of threads with subject lines that say only, "Question" or "Batteries," some of the audience (like me) could choose to go somewhere else.

But interestingly, research into social media has shown that words of outrage have particular powers, so it could be that a thread titled "Disgusting" would produce more engagement than a more "accurate" title. And even among more accurate titles, there can be variations that would result in differing levels of engagement, for example, "Why don't campers clean their campsites before they leave" versus "Campers are such pigs."

If AI's job is to increase engagement, we know which one it's going to pick--the one that gets people roiled up. That's why social media is such a cesspool, and the more AI gets involved, the cesspoolier it gets.

But as for thread titles being used for people to find their way here, my experience is that the thread titles don't enter into it. The search engines look for at the content, not how something is labeled. It's no longer a situation where knowledge is organized into a card catalog, and you search by that. That scheme was necessary when humans were doing the research, because they couldn't read every word of very book to find something they were looking for. But computers can.

So search engines use the content and have no need for any categorization of what that content is. And indeed, search results I get never show the subject line of a thread--just the pertinent language in the thread. So "better" subject lines would make easier to find information if someone is just scanning thread titles, but anyone who's looking for a particular answer would be crazy to use that method to find it. Or maybe I just don't understand the what AI means when it uses the term "searchability" in its summary.

And if I may be so bold, it seems crazy to me for a discussion forum to embrace AI because AI is what's going to put them out of business. The AI-generated summaries are already putting us contributors out of business in a way, turning us into information providers without personalities, whose individual contributions to a discussion are not valued (being one of "others express strong concerns about loss of humor, personal touch" doesn't cut it for me).

But maybe that's what people actually want. But I'm the type to prefer a conversation where something comes up and we wonder who that guy was in that movie and can't come up with it, and move on instead of diving into a phone to find out a fact that really doesn't matter.

I've always gravitated to discussion forums because they're a nice hybrid of information and discussion, and I'm going to miss them.

 

[jymbee]

That's why clickbait is so successful. Most people don't make any effort to not engage. And even I acknowledge that I'm not really punishing anyone by denying a "vague-poster" my one view, although I do have the hubris to think I might be able contribute to the conversation in a unique or substantial way, and if I deny them that because I don't even read their post then maybe it does cause a tiny bit of suffering...that they, of course, don't know anything about.

Operating on priciple is tricky business.

But don't you think most people when seeing the glaringly obvious clickbait titles don't take the "bait"? I don't know, maybe they do as apparently it must work to some extent given the amount of it you see everywhere.

Of course writers in any medium including news media outlets, newspaper writers, corporate PR people, know that that crafting the right kind of headline to make readers want to read more is critical. But usually those Titles reflect what one expects to "read more" about. But classic clickbait? I mean, c'mon, who clicks on this crap?

• The Government Doesn’t Want You to Know This
• This Photo Looks Normal Until You Notice THIS
• Doctors Are FURIOUS About This One Weird Trick…
• 10 Foods That Are Secretly Destroying Your Brain

Yeah I know, probably millions of people.

But I do think intentional weird(?) titles in a forum such as this, sometimes for the sake of humor, are different than what one normally considers clickbait. Not leading you down pages of content saturated with obnoxious ads with affiliate links. Just starting a conversation not unlike one might do when talking to a group of folks sitting around a campfire.

Try as I might, I can't find a difference between the two. So I copy-and-pasted them right on top of each other and get this:

Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites trashed?
Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites trashed?

oops... yeah, obviously a little quick with the cut/paste here! The changed version was actually:
Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites Behind?
MANY answers to that rephrasing as well I suppose.

But as for thread titles being used for people to find their way here, my experience is that the thread titles don't enter into it. The search engines look for at the content, not how something is labeled. It's no longer a situation where knowledge is organized into a card catalog, and you search by that. That scheme was necessary when humans were doing the research, because they couldn't read every word of very book to find something they were looking for. But computers can.

Interesting. Decades ago I attended an SEO training seminar where the main speaker was purported to be a real guru when it came to search engine optimization. My main takeaway was learning just deep into the weeds these guys get when talking about this subject.

I assume that today with AI tools all the "rules" put forward then are now out the window.

But maybe that's what people actually want. But I'm the type to prefer a conversation where something comes up and we wonder who that guy was in that movie and can't come up with it, and move on instead of diving into a phone to find out a fact that really doesn't matter.

You apparently have met one of my family members! Best intentions but wow... in many conversations whenever a particular question arises where the answer might not be known by those around or some subjectivity might be involved, BANG. Phone out, reading out loud pages of content. "Moving on" just not an option.

 

[Trivet]

But don't you think most people when seeing the glaringly obvious clickbait titles don't take the "bait"? I don't know, maybe they do as apparently it must work to some extent given the amount of it you see everywhere.

As I say, they wouldn't bait if people didn't click.

But classic clickbait? I mean, c'mon, who clicks on this crap?

• The Government Doesn’t Want You to Know This
• This Photo Looks Normal Until You Notice THIS
• Doctors Are FURIOUS About This One Weird Trick…
• 10 Foods That Are Secretly Destroying Your Brain

Yeah I know, probably millions of people.

Actually, I probably would if it wouldn't benefit the people doing the baiting. Like standing in the grocery store reading the National Enquirer without buying it? I'd read that nonsense just because I'm a curious type, and if I had time to kill, but I would never reward anyone for publishing it.

But I do think intentional weird(?) titles in a forum such as this, sometimes for the sake of humor, are different than what one normally considers clickbait.

I do, too. And it's natural, and actually good, if people fashion thread titles that will draw interest. But I'm not a fan at all of vague titling, and am actually inclined to be a little more forgiving of people who do it because they're ignorant than people who are intentionally vague as a tactic.

oops... yeah, obviously a little quick with the cut/paste here! The changed version was actually:
Why Do Some Campers Leave Campsites Behind?

Oh, I actually remember that one. I thought, "Because it's check-out time? And I hope it's all campers who do that, not just some." Definite AI fail there.

 

[Trivet]

"Moving on" just not an option.

And maybe I'm weird, but I think it's fun to, two days later, suddenly remember the name of the guy who was in that movie. Plus it sets up a nice way to reconnect with whoever I was talking with in a low stakes way.

 

[Janet H]

You may have noticed some recent changes to the AI summaries and settings. I wanted to clear up some misconceptions and let you know the latest updates (released today).

• AI is being used to generate thread summaries and update some thread titles for clarity and to improve search.
• AI is not modifying or rewriting individual member posts - only generating a separate summary for convenience and improving titles on some threads. Member posts are NOT being touched.
• Summaries will include any original title.
• We are committed to transparency and are labeling this AI use.
• If you use search to find a thread, it will search for both the original title and the updated title.
• You can disable ALL of the AI view (summaries and titles) in your account preferences as desired, and if you log in to more than one of the RV LIFE forums, that change will propagate across those forums: https://www.rvforum.net/account/preferences

Be sure to hit save after changing your settings.

You will begin to see a new "thumbs up/down" option on both the titles and the summary, with a comment box. The intent is to gather information to make improvements. Please use the thumbs up/down and comment box. We’re actively reviewing this feedback to improve accuracy.

AI is evolving rapidly, and we can use it to improve how information is surfaced. Some of the biggest challenges on a forum are related to search and titles that make locating content tough. The goal is to make it easier to find helpful threads, especially in a large forum where great content can otherwise get buried. AI can help with this.

One of the great things about people is that we never stop learning. We are doing our level best to learn from experience and improve the available tools. The goal here is simple: make it easier to find useful content across the forum without changing what members have written.

You can always report a problem, and the site team can make any needed changes.