Ron
Moderator Emeritus
We use the Brake Buddy and it behaves as you discribed with your system. As far as after sales support thay are outstanding. I have talked other users that feeel the same way.
Trying to select toad brakes
- Thread starter Smoky
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Karl
Moderator Emeritus
Tom,
You must have been frustrated as all get out. Their troubleshooting list is full of potential problems like the ones you described; most having to do with adjustments to sensitivity, maximum braking pressure, "level setting", and low voltage. They talk about too small wiring by toad mfgr (don't believe that one for a second), and specifically tell you not to tow with engine running because the power brakes are operational then, and you can't use it on a vehicle without power brakes either.
Last year at FMCA they had the (then) new units on display and for sale for $1000, so I looked inside. It was a spaghetti factory of wires, plastic tubing, valves, and that awful inertial sensing unit that (I believe) was spinning like a gyroscope. Seemed like they threw everything from the engineers' spare parts bin into it - way too much stuff to go wrong.
You must have been frustrated as all get out. Their troubleshooting list is full of potential problems like the ones you described; most having to do with adjustments to sensitivity, maximum braking pressure, "level setting", and low voltage. They talk about too small wiring by toad mfgr (don't believe that one for a second), and specifically tell you not to tow with engine running because the power brakes are operational then, and you can't use it on a vehicle without power brakes either.
Last year at FMCA they had the (then) new units on display and for sale for $1000, so I looked inside. It was a spaghetti factory of wires, plastic tubing, valves, and that awful inertial sensing unit that (I believe) was spinning like a gyroscope. Seemed like they threw everything from the engineers' spare parts bin into it - way too much stuff to go wrong.
Tom
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Frustrated I sure was Karl 
Ours must have been one of the "new" units you mentioned - we bought it around this time last year. Cost approx $1,300 at CW.
BTW I tried a neighbor's Brake Buddy and it seemed to work just fine. Everything I read from BB owners has been nothing but positive. When I mentioned the BB to Roadmaster's tech support guy, all he'd say was "our works on a different principle".
Ours must have been one of the "new" units you mentioned - we bought it around this time last year. Cost approx $1,300 at CW.BTW I tried a neighbor's Brake Buddy and it seemed to work just fine. Everything I read from BB owners has been nothing but positive. When I mentioned the BB to Roadmaster's tech support guy, all he'd say was "our works on a different principle".
OP
OP
Smoky
Well-known member
Tom:
Am I correct in assuming that even though you tried and liked the Brake Buddy, your first choice would still be the M&G?
Am I correct in assuming that even though you tried and liked the Brake Buddy, your first choice would still be the M&G?
Tom
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You got it in 1 Smoky. I'm not saying there's anything at all "wrong" with the BB, and it has the advantage of being readily portable between toads. But there's just no fuss with the M&G, and nothing to fiddle with if I need to move the toad in a hurry. It's down to personal preference, and there's not much difference in the net price.Smoky said:
BTW have you noticed that the big rig tractor-trailer drivers don't screw around with a BB? They just hook up an air hose between the tractor and the "toad". ;D
John From Detroit
Well-known member
Tom said:
Thanks I figured it out later
If he's got air brakes for "parking" he likely has air brakes for driving too ... Of course "Likley" is not a guarentee
Tom
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Smoky
Here's another piece of the M&G .....
I'd procured, but not installed, their breakaway kit. It is comprised of:
In the event the toad becomes detached from the coach, a cable activates the breakaway switch, connecting the air tank to the air cylinder, thereby applying the toad brakes.
I finally got around to installing it this week, photos attached. I have to say that, although quite easy to do, this took considerably longer than I expected. So, if you're short of time &/or uneasy about installing yourself, it just might sense for you to get the whole thing installed at the same time by a dealer, or by M&G.
Here's another piece of the M&G .....
I'd procured, but not installed, their breakaway kit. It is comprised of:
- A small air tank.
- An electrically operated diverter valve.
- A breakaway switch.
- Steel wire breakaway cable.
- High pressure air hose.
In the event the toad becomes detached from the coach, a cable activates the breakaway switch, connecting the air tank to the air cylinder, thereby applying the toad brakes.
I finally got around to installing it this week, photos attached. I have to say that, although quite easy to do, this took considerably longer than I expected. So, if you're short of time &/or uneasy about installing yourself, it just might sense for you to get the whole thing installed at the same time by a dealer, or by M&G.
Attachments
John From Detroit
Well-known member
Tom said:
The advantages of the brakemaster over the brake buddy (and brake pro) is that it draws it's stopping power from the towing vehicle, and.... Even once you are stopped it keeps the brakes engaged, The pedal pusher boxes like Brake Buddy and it's competitors use an acceleration switch, if it senses you are slowing down it applies the brakes, some Brake buddy) apply them in a pre-set level, others (Brake-Pro) apply them according to how fast you are slowing. However they can also apply them if you are backing up or keep them applies once you have released the towing vehicle brakes. There is, you see, no communications between those brakes and the tow vehicle (Motor home)
With the Brakemaster, M&G or Unified Gear systems the brakes arre controled by the driver and the tow vehicle, Much better
Part 2: When the brake buddy and brake pro push against the brake,,, What to they push against? (The seat)
With the brakemaster it pushes against a bracket bolted to either 1: The floor or 2: The seat mounting bolts (much stronger than pushing against the seat). The M&G pushes, well, it is mounted next to the master cylinder, does not push the pedal at all, and the Unified gear pulls, not pushes (Firewall to brake) all far superior to a seat breaker
Tom
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John
The "push against the seat" feature is a contributing issue with BrakePro, albeit not the biggest problem. Unlike the Brake Buddy, which has the handle on top of the box, Brake Pro located their handle on the back of the box and it's used to push against the seat instead of the full area of the back of the box. The result is the need to accurately position the BrakePro's handle, and also a tendency for the push to cause the box to tilt. As you aluded to, the front of the seat is also not a "hard" surface to push against.
Having said that, the Brake Buddy didn't seem to suffer from the same problem when I borrowed my neighbor's BB.
The "push against the seat" feature is a contributing issue with BrakePro, albeit not the biggest problem. Unlike the Brake Buddy, which has the handle on top of the box, Brake Pro located their handle on the back of the box and it's used to push against the seat instead of the full area of the back of the box. The result is the need to accurately position the BrakePro's handle, and also a tendency for the push to cause the box to tilt. As you aluded to, the front of the seat is also not a "hard" surface to push against.
Having said that, the Brake Buddy didn't seem to suffer from the same problem when I borrowed my neighbor's BB.
OP
OP
Smoky
Well-known member
Bernie:
It is true that Spartan has a kit for their chassis to link up with the M&G brakes. In fact they insist on it in order to abide by warranty requirements. My Newmar dealer has been working on this and finally got back to me today with a person to call at Spartan. Don't know how much the kit is to cost me. They recommend that an M&G dealer install it and that is exactly what I am going to do.
Without the kit, Spartan says there have been problems of M&G brakes causing all the air in the system to be drained rendering both chassis and toad without brakes. I will know more about the particulars after I call them tomorrow.
It is true that Spartan has a kit for their chassis to link up with the M&G brakes. In fact they insist on it in order to abide by warranty requirements. My Newmar dealer has been working on this and finally got back to me today with a person to call at Spartan. Don't know how much the kit is to cost me. They recommend that an M&G dealer install it and that is exactly what I am going to do.
Without the kit, Spartan says there have been problems of M&G brakes causing all the air in the system to be drained rendering both chassis and toad without brakes. I will know more about the particulars after I call them tomorrow.
Tom,
When we had a problem with our seat not coming forward, I put a 4x4 between the seat and our Apollo and it worked quite well. I think a piece of 1x4 or 1x6 would work just as well if the seat isn't compatible with the brake unit. Ours isn't a problem so when the seat was fixed, I stopped using the lumber.
When we had a problem with our seat not coming forward, I put a 4x4 between the seat and our Apollo and it worked quite well. I think a piece of 1x4 or 1x6 would work just as well if the seat isn't compatible with the brake unit. Ours isn't a problem so when the seat was fixed, I stopped using the lumber.
Bob Buchanan
Well-known member
Smoky:
A number of years ago, I recall asking office managers during an into to micro computer class which Word Processor software they preferred. This was back in the days when WPerfect and some others were as popular as Word and some others. Will never forget the response from that class of 30 users. I finally called a break and changed the subject. I thought fist fights might break out at any minute. Am reminded of that every time a thread on toad brakes begins.
I am no exception here, in that I will recommend the one that works for me - and can think of reasons I would not want to use the other systems. I use the US Gear system and have been for a number of years now. Others on this thread I see have also recommended it - AND, our own world famous RV Instructor here, Jerry Ray, uses and recommends it. Here are some of the reasons I prefer this unit and why I selected if over the M&G or the one that you stick that big box in the toad, get on your hands and knees and connect it to your brake pedal contraption :-\ and the others:
1. What happens if the MH brakes fail (engine stops or whatever)? The US Gear system has a control on my dash that allows me to apply the Toad brakes - at whatever degree I so desire. In an emergency I can literally lock the Toad brakes to assist in slowing down my rig. No other system will allow that. And if I'm, say, driving around an RV park, I don't need Toad brakes, so I turn them off from the MH drivers seat.
2. Uses the power brakes on the toad: Have you ever stopped your Saturn when the engine dies? It takes a lot of foot power to press those brakes. The USGear system engages the power brakes on the toad so requires a lot less power to brake or stop the toad. No other system does this. If there is a break away, the toad power brakes are engaged full strength.
3. One time install: I decided I would never buy a system that I had to go to my toad and hook anything up to the brake pedal there. Once the system installed, the only item involved each time you hook up your toad is plugging in the electric line from the MH to the Toad. I keep the MH end connected all the time, so all I do is plug in the Toad end as I hook up the Toad lights line. Total time equals 3 to 5 seconds.
4. Progressive "and" Proportional braking: A toad weighs a lot less than a MH (other than Tom's ;D), so the braking should be a lot less and US Gear provides that. I pulled a trailer and then a fifth wheel and got used to being able to adjust the "gain" as I was driving. You have that control at your finger tips "while driving" to make that adjustment. And it's also proportional in that a slightest pressure causes slight braking on both vehicles and so on. If in a panic situation, and I cram down my HM power brakes, I am doing the same with the toad power brakes -- and I like that on grades such as Parley and the Grape Vine. I can stop my MH plus Toad "faster" than I could stop the MH by itself. Think about it. A system such as M&G only brakes the toad enough to slow the toad - but if needed, it will not assist in slowing the HM.
Smoky, here's their website (I see others have posted it as well) and some useful info that you might want to add to your confusion.
http://usgear.com/unified_tow_brake.htm
Gosh, I love these, "Mine is better than yours" threads ;D
Smoky said:
A number of years ago, I recall asking office managers during an into to micro computer class which Word Processor software they preferred. This was back in the days when WPerfect and some others were as popular as Word and some others. Will never forget the response from that class of 30 users. I finally called a break and changed the subject. I thought fist fights might break out at any minute.
Am reminded of that every time a thread on toad brakes begins.I am no exception here, in that I will recommend the one that works for me - and can think of reasons I would not want to use the other systems. I use the US Gear system and have been for a number of years now. Others on this thread I see have also recommended it - AND, our own world famous RV Instructor here, Jerry Ray, uses and recommends it. Here are some of the reasons I prefer this unit and why I selected if over the M&G or the one that you stick that big box in the toad, get on your hands and knees and connect it to your brake pedal contraption :-\ and the others:
1. What happens if the MH brakes fail (engine stops or whatever)? The US Gear system has a control on my dash that allows me to apply the Toad brakes - at whatever degree I so desire. In an emergency I can literally lock the Toad brakes to assist in slowing down my rig. No other system will allow that. And if I'm, say, driving around an RV park, I don't need Toad brakes, so I turn them off from the MH drivers seat.
2. Uses the power brakes on the toad: Have you ever stopped your Saturn when the engine dies? It takes a lot of foot power to press those brakes. The USGear system engages the power brakes on the toad so requires a lot less power to brake or stop the toad. No other system does this. If there is a break away, the toad power brakes are engaged full strength.
3. One time install: I decided I would never buy a system that I had to go to my toad and hook anything up to the brake pedal there. Once the system installed, the only item involved each time you hook up your toad is plugging in the electric line from the MH to the Toad. I keep the MH end connected all the time, so all I do is plug in the Toad end as I hook up the Toad lights line. Total time equals 3 to 5 seconds.
4. Progressive "and" Proportional braking: A toad weighs a lot less than a MH (other than Tom's ;D), so the braking should be a lot less and US Gear provides that. I pulled a trailer and then a fifth wheel and got used to being able to adjust the "gain" as I was driving. You have that control at your finger tips "while driving" to make that adjustment. And it's also proportional in that a slightest pressure causes slight braking on both vehicles and so on. If in a panic situation, and I cram down my HM power brakes, I am doing the same with the toad power brakes -- and I like that on grades such as Parley and the Grape Vine. I can stop my MH plus Toad "faster" than I could stop the MH by itself. Think about it. A system such as M&G only brakes the toad enough to slow the toad - but if needed, it will not assist in slowing the HM.
Smoky, here's their website (I see others have posted it as well) and some useful info that you might want to add to your confusion.
http://usgear.com/unified_tow_brake.htm
Gosh, I love these, "Mine is better than yours" threads ;D
BernieD
Well-known member
Smoky said:
Smoky
I have never heard of a problem with the M&G brakes causing air loss. The Spartan kit is a CYA, IMHO, but I would think you are better with it than without.
Tom
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Ned said:
Ned, that's a really crude fix to prevent the seat from riding over or under the handle when the BrakePro operates. But IIRC I tried something like that, but it didn't leave much room to get the unit in. The BP has a much larger box than the BrakeBuddy and, with the handle sticking out the back, I had the seat all the way back before inserting a piece of wood.
The BP's adjustable feet also don't accomodate the floor of the Suburban, leaving it unstable. I made a plinth (aka false floor) using 3/4" plywood and a couple of 2x4s to give it a solid flat surface to sit on. This elminated the stability problem and also helped a little with the vertical height of that rear-facing handle. But it was one more thing to put in and out of the toad.
I'd have put up with it if the darned system worked and didn't continually apply the brakes when it wasn't supposed to, or drain the toad battery. It's just a poor design all round, and it was such a relief when I had the M&G installed and put an extra $400 in my pocket. As Terry said at the time "welcome to the hassle-free world of M&G"; He was right ;D
Tom
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Ned
I haven't seen the Apollo unit but, based on other Apollo products I've seen, I have no reason to doubt that it's a better design.
I haven't seen the Apollo unit but, based on other Apollo products I've seen, I have no reason to doubt that it's a better design.
Marsha/CA
Moderator Emeritus
Bob,
We have US Gear as our braking system and love it.
Marsha~
We have US Gear as our braking system and love it.
Marsha~
