Weighted at CAT scale. Do I need a new TV?

[All50States]

Hi Everyone!
First time poster here! My wife and I took our new Freedom Express 231 out for it's maiden voyage this past weekend. Based on the feedback on this forum, I've been trying to determine if my tow vehicle is safe. I stopped at a CAT scale and weighed my 2008 QX56 and our camper. I had thought payload might be an issue. Now it appears I may have a number of issues. Determining what I can tow safely is all new to me. We're planning a trip to the Smokies in May and to the Rockies in the fall. I'm now thinking that I may not have the proper vehicle to safely tow out west and into the mountains.

From my calculations I'm over on payload, GVWR, and real axle weight. This doesn't sound like I should even tow to the Smokies (we live in NC and it's 4 hours away). Would you please help to assess the safety of my current vehicle.

Here are the numbers on our 2008 QX56 (130,000 miles):
Curb Weight: 6011lbs
GVWR: 7299lbs
GAWR Front: 3699lbs
GAWR Rear: 4299lbs
Payload: 7299 - 6011 = 1288 lbs

CAT Scale weigh #1 Truck & Camper:
Front axle: 2820
Rear axle: 4640 (I'm over by 341lbs)
Trailer: 5720
Gross weight of truck and trailer 13,180
Dry weight for camper is 5500lbs. So I loaded 220lbs of stuff in there.
This was with a Equalizer 1000/10000 WDH

CAT Scale weigh #2 Just Truck:
Front axle: 3080
Rear axle: 3580
Gross weight: 6660

How much does the stuff in my truck weigh:
From CAT #1: 6660 - 6011 curb weight = 649lbs

How much weight is the camper putting on my hitch:
From CAT #2: 2820+4640 = 7460. 7460 - 6660 (from CAT #2 with no TV) = 800lbs

What percent is the trailer hitch weight to total RV weight: 800/5720 = 13.9% (seems OK here with the range being 10-15%)

Payload Calculation:
629lbs of stuff in truck + 800lbs for trailer hitch weight = 1429lbs
The payload calculated above is 1288.
Over payload by 141lbs

MFR GVWR: 7299
Actual GVWR: From CAT #2: 2820 front axle + 4640 real axle = 7460lbs Over by 141 lbs.

A few other things. On the drive to the beach, on flat land my RPMs were around 1750. On a slight long incline, the RPMs went to 2500. On a slightly steeper incline I was at 3250-3500 RPMs. I really don't like the listening to the high RPMs and feeling like engine is struggling. The QX56 is a 5.6L, 320 HP, and torque 393 torque. Max towing is 8900. I averaged 8.5mpg.

Thanks for your help with this. I'm looking for folks way more experienced in towing to help assess this setup and if I'm looking at this correctly. I'm brand new at this. I want to make sure we're safe towing to Rockies and we leave for the Smokies next month.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

You can fix the overweight rear axle by increasing the tension on the WD hitch. That will shift weight to the front axle, where you have reserve capacity. However, the GVW doesn't change and you are still a bit over. The payload rating wouldn't be an issue IF you were within the GVWR (but you aren't).
Coud you drive it like that? Yes. The wheels don't fall off just becasue you exceed a rating by some modest amount. Is it a good idea? Probably not. At the very least, use great caution.

 

[grashley]

Welcome to the Forum!

Excellent job on the weights!  One minor correction.
Your TT weight is truck & trailer - truck or 13180 minus 6660 = 6520#  Weight on the axles is 5720, but tongue wt is part of TT weight.
This changes % TW to 800 / 6520 = 12.3%

You removed 260# from the front axle - almost 10% - when you hitched the trailer.  As Gary said, tweak the WD hitch to help this out.
If you move some cargo to the back of the camper, it will lighten the hitch as well.  This will help "unload" the payload.  Just be sure to maintain that 10% or more on the hitch!  IN THEORY, get the hitch wt to 660#, still over 10%, which takes 140# off the SUV and you are right at Payload.

You have a good tow vehicle, but this camper is right at the limit of what it can handle. 
Are you safe?  Yes.  Folks tow far heavier loads with less TV all the time.  Some become You Tube sensations.
Will it be an enjoyable drive?  That is for you to decide.  Maybe not.
Can you take this through the Rockies?  Yes, but you will not win ANY races up the hill and you will want ear plugs to reduce engine noise.  Remember the gas engine develops max horsepower at high rpms, which are needed to get up the hill.

Should you choose to get a different tow vehicle, you already know that it needs more Payload and more rear axle capacity.  While most ? ton trucks will meet that need, some will lot, so make sure the truck you get will do what you  want.  Note ANY gas engine - even in a 1 ton truck - will run high rpms climbing the Rockies.

Thanks for being safe!

 

[All50States]

Thanks Gary and grashley! 

Grashley, thanks for checking the math and the correction on the trailer weight. Completely makes sense.

Regarding the GVWR, I had heard from a friend at work that if you get into an accident and your over on the GVWR, the insurance company has an out and doesn't have to pay.  Have you heard this?

Driving out to the Rockies will be a long drive for us and I looking for my wife to help with the driving.  I don't want to put her or me into any white knuckle driving situations.  I guess I could consider the QX56 like a 1/2 ton in terms of towing capacity.  It certainly has a nice ride and 'floats' down the highway. However, not sure this is great for stability.

I did test drive a F250 this past weekend. That is one big truck and it won't fit into my garage.  Yesterday I test drove a Ram 1500.  Nice riding truck, but the seats were too firm for me.  I don't think I could ride 5-6 hours in that truck comfortably. The Rockies trip is in the fall. The Smokies trip is over Memorial Day weekend. I'll have a better sense for mountain driving after that trip. 

Thanks!

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Regarding the GVWR, I had heard from a friend at work that if you get into an accident and your over on the GVWR, the insurance company has an out and doesn't have to pay.  Have you heard this?

I see it all the time on RV sites and it is pure hogwash.  Look at the fine print in your policy - there is no exception for anything like that.  Do they refuse to pay out if you were speeding, or lack required lighting.  The only concern might be a civil lawsuit in the event of an accident. Exceeding the GVWR is probably evidence of driver negligence (creating an unsafe condition) on your part. Even then, your insurer still covers your liability (up to the policy limits).

 

[sightseers]

Regarding the GVWR, I had heard from a friend at work that if you get into an accident and your over on the GVWR, the insurance company has an out and doesn't have to pay.  Have you heard this?

I have never heard of a vehicle being weighed at the scene of an accident.  So I doubt that would hold up in court.

 

[BIG JOE]

I have never heard of a vehicle being weighed at the scene of an accident.  So I doubt that would hold up in court.

I've seen GVWR become an issue from notes, findings, and remarks, on Accident Reports, as filed by the responding Law Enforcement Officer. So it IS something to be considered ? 

 

[grashley]

One other thought:

The SUV probably has "P" rated tires (Passenger car tires).  Upgrading to LT tires (Light Truck tires) will give a stiffer sidewall, stiffer ride and reduced squishy rear end when towing.  Make sure the tire load rating will exceed your needs.

 

[sightseers]

I've seen GVWR become an issue from notes, findings, and remarks, on Accident Reports, as filed by the responding Law Enforcement Officer. So it IS something to be considered ?

Maybe on a commercial use vehicle,    but any private use vehicle, you can legally modifiy it to carry more weight.

like this guy did  )

 

[BIG JOE]

Maybe on a commercial use vehicle,    but any private use vehicle, you can legally modifiy it to carry more weight.

like this guy did  )

An Older S-10 pick-up pulling a loaded cement buggy.. that took out a light pole and the corner of a house.. kinda thing.. is what I was referring to.. 

Too much cement buggy.. not enough pick-up ?

 

[All50States]

I checked my tires on the SUV and I have Michelin LTX Premiers. 

On the door jam of the car is a sticker with Tire and Loading Information.  It says "The combined weight of occupants and cargo should NEVER EXCEED 1268 lbs".  I guess that is the same as the payload that I had calculated at 1288 lbs.  I weigh 1429 lbs, putting me 161 lbs over.

When I bought this SUV the only thing I thought I needed to pay attention too was how much the vehicle could tow.  At 8900 lbs, I thought I was good. Now I've learned about payload, GVWR, and Axle ratings. There's many more factors to consider.

If I was going to upgrade to a beefier vehicle, would a F150 with tow package and EB be OK, or at 6500 lbs and towing out west once a year be considering a 3/4 ton?

 

[sightseers]

the single most weight limiting factor is your tires....

Change your tires ...and you change everything. 

 

[grashley]

That door jamb placard is the Payload calculated as it left the factory.  Every new vehicle sold in the US and Canada since 2009 has one.

You should be fine with a ? ton truck.  Just make sure the one you buy has a Payload placard showing at least 1500#.  The other weights will go up or down with this.  For instance, if the truck curb wt is 4900# and payload is 1600#, the GVWR is 7,000#.  This is lower than your SUV, but gives higher payload, and probably more rear axle load capacity.

As you know, Payload = GVWR minus curb wt.
As you look at trucks, remember that bigger cab, longer bed, 4WD, higher trim, more options all add weight and reduce payload unless a beefier suspension with an increase in GVWR is also added.

 

[All50States]

I test drove a RAM 1500 yesterday. The seats were too firm for me. Ram is crossed off my list.

Today a test drove a Ford-150 with EB. Wow! Now that was a nice truck.  However, it seems most F-150s don't come with towing mirrors.  I would really want those.  Today I have clip on mirrors on my truck and it is so nice to see into the next lane.  I would definitely want to do that in the new truck.

I liked the seats in the XLT more than the Lariat.  That was surprising to me.  The seats in the Lariat where more firm.  Now, the seats in the Platinum were real nice.

Heading to a GM dealer next.

 

[scale obsession]

I checked my tires on the SUV and I have Michelin LTX Premiers. 

On the door jam of the car is a sticker with Tire and Loading Information.  It says "The combined weight of occupants and cargo should NEVER EXCEED 1268 lbs".  I guess that is the same as the payload that I had calculated at 1288 lbs.  I weigh 1429 lbs, putting me 161 lbs over.

When I bought this SUV the only thing I thought I needed to pay attention too was how much the vehicle could tow.  At 8900 lbs, I thought I was good. Now I've learned about payload, GVWR, and Axle ratings. There's many more factors to consider.

If I was going to upgrade to a beefier vehicle, would a F150 with tow package and EB be OK, or at 6500 lbs and towing out west once a year be considering a 3/4 ton?

I'm glad to see you doing the research. I made the exact same mistake. I looked at just the max tow rating, when I purchased my 16' silverado 1500. I saw that it was rated at 9100lb, and signed the papers. I then found out my error and began doing the math. Pretty much the exact situation. After pulling my rockwood a few times, I was unhappy with the trucks handling. I caved a purchased a 19' F250 two weeks ago.

As for your F150 , Just check the GVWR and payload and max towing for that exact truck . In my truck looking, there was a wide variety of weights. Another thing to consider is your gearing. This makes a huge difference in the max tow rating. For example, a 2016 silverado 1500 with with 3.08 gears is only rated to tow 6K. A silverado with 342 gears is rated to tow 9100. Gearing alone was a make or break decision when looking at various silverados.

I support the f250 thoughts, as you can never have too much truck. As you've found, the size is another issue. I went f250 because my particular model has a max payload of 3416, and a tow rating of 12,3. With these numbers, I should never have to upgrade my tow vehicle.

Again , Kudos for doing the research and double/triple checking the numbers.

 

[All50States]

scale obsession, I think there is only 1 or 2 configurations of the F150 that would technically support the weights. I don't want to go the F150 route and be close on the numbers.  Did you decide to go with gas or diesel?  The thing I really like about the F250 are the towing mirrors! 

 

[HappyWanderer]

I have never heard of a vehicle being weighed at the scene of an accident.  So I doubt that would hold up in court.

Yes, it does happen. I've seen the truck enforcement folks respond to accidents with portable scales. These were accidents involving commercial trucks, but it does happen occasionally.

 

[sightseers]

Yes, it does happen. I've seen the truck enforcement folks respond to accidents with portable scales. These were accidents involving commercial trucks, but it does happen occasionally.

yes,  Commercial vehicles weight limits are very strictly enforced.  ( for road taxes, and deep pocket lawsuits).  CDL drivers are also held to higher driving standards by the cops because they drive for a living. (I've had a CDL/A since 1974 and I've been caught dozens of times at scales for weight violations. :-\)

but,  weight limits are not enforced on private vehicles. (That's why Highway Patrols get pissed when RV's go through truck scales).

If you lose control of your RV...... it will not mater if it's 250 lbs over the Yellow sticker GVWR,  or speeding driving too fast...or a bad turn,  you are at fault.

if you get into an accident because of anything stupid you do with your RV...  Like Gary said,  your insurance policy limits are it.

 

[scale obsession]

scale obsession, I think there is only 1 or 2 configurations of the F150 that would technically support the weights. I don't want to go the F150 route and be close on the numbers.  Did you decide to go with gas or diesel?  The thing I really like about the F250 are the towing mirrors!

I went for the 6.2 gas XL model, 4x4. STX package. 373 gears. 3416 gvwr. 12,300 max tow.

I work with diesel everyday, and it has its place. It?s place isn?t in my life as a daily driver. Ha ha. All jokes aside, I just can?t justify the extra 9500$ that diesel costs, plus all the expensive maintenance and fuel. I can buy a lot of gas for those costs. If your towing daily, sure I get it, but when your TV doubles as your daily driver, I didn?t feel diesel was the best option for us.

 

[grashley]

Gas or diesel is an excellent question!

Gas is better IF:
It is a daily driver as well as tow vehicle
Most towing is close to home - 2 hour drive or less.  (not cost effective for initial cost)
If you make frequent short trips with the truck.    (They like to go long distance and hate stop and go usage)

Diesel is better IF
Used primarily as tow vehicle.
You tow in hills and mountains.  (Better low rpm torque)
Most of the time, it is driven at least 50 miles any time it is started.  (To keep emissions system clean)

I got the diesel primarily as a tow vehicle.  About the only time it is used is to tow the FW or a serious run to Home Depot.  My daily driver is a Miata.  Talk about size difference!  Truck payload is greater than Miata GVWR!