Nitrogen

rbell said:

So yesterday I went back to Belle Tire to get my tires rotated, they put nitrogen in tires when you buy them there. While I was waiting I noticed a sign on the wall telling how much money you'd save with nitrogen. It says if you drive 20K miles a year you'll save $147 in fuel cost. They are a reputable tire dealer so it must be the truth.

They wouldn't stretch the truth would they.

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It is the reputable and credible truth that properly inflated tires will save you fuel...N maintains proper inflation longer.

http://www.getnitrogen.org/why/index.php

30yrnavy said:

at Costco where using nitrogen is a condition of warranty.

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....and considering all the potential Costco tire warranty and customer liability factors/issues, why would using N be a condition of warranty? ???

Did we strike a tender spot there, Pubtym?  :

There can be no doubt that proper inflation is important, but will the use of nitrogen assure that? I don't think so. Consumer Reports did a side-by-side test of nitrogen and air in 31  sets of identical tires and found an average 1.3 psi difference in a year. Both air and nitrogen tires lost enough pressure (2.2 psi for nitro vs 3.5 for air) to need a refill after a year. In my own case, I use plain old air and my tires hold pressure within 1-2 psi over the course of a year. Just like your nitro tires. If someone has a leaky valve or poorly seated tire bead, pure nitrogen isn't going to help.

The test started on September 20, 2006 and the final measurements were  taken on September 20, 2007.  The results show nitrogen does reduce  pressure loss over time, but the reduction is only a 1.3 psi difference  from air-filled tires. The average loss of air-filled tires was just 3.5  psi from the initial 30 pressure setting. Nitrogen-filled tires lost an  average of 2.2 psi from the initial 30 psi setting. More important, all  tires lost air pressure regardless of the inflation medium, so  consumers should check their tires' air pressure routinely. No  evaluation was done to assess the aging claim.

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I checked the Costco web site and there is no statement that nitrogen is required for their warranty. Nor does any tire manufacturer require nitrogen instead of air. See the Costco Road Hazard Warranty statement here:
http://www.costco.com/Images/Content/Misc/PDF/TIRE.pdf

Gary,

Yes. ...a tender spot issue of mine is any site forum staff one liner feedback answers to good questions that do have many factual test response data basis. I believe the staff and more experienced forum members have a basic responsibility to get folks factual data base test information, if available, so they can make their own decisions. Any site staff responses of "advertising gimmick , advertising hype, no, no, no", in my opinion, falls very short of the intent of this forum and meaningful and factual responses to valid RV owner questions.

Your last needed response with the info from Consumers Reports is excellent but, in my opinion, was way overdue to answer the content of this initial posting. My posts..including my initial respose , was to assist getting the responsible..varied, credible data content for the member. Yes, I subscribe to Consumers Reports and, most of the time, I use it as a product buying assistance bible. But, on this issue, I take their information and compare all points to other independent tests and data basis.

Now, we both have presented varied test info..user info..commercial user info, and professional user info so that the many readers of this thread can make informed decisions and form their own opinions.

Thanks for steering the content of this thread back to balanced, responsible, meaningful, and multi-factual staff and member responses. 8)

I'll use the safer nitrogen 8). Enough hot air blown on this thread ;D

I'll use the safer nitrogen

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Pubtym

With all due respect, you have not provided any documentation supporting nitrogen being safer in autos or RVs. That is your feeling and you have gotten acceptable service from using nitrogen, but there is nothing to support the generality that  nitrogen is safer. It may maintain air pressure slightly better over a year's time, it may slightly reduce a rise in air pressure in some circumstances. But safer? A TPMS will provide far more safety than nitrogen.

As Gary noted with Costco's tire warranty clause, nitrogen is not a condition of warranty as I had stated previously...my bad.  I was told by the salesman that you had to use nitrogen. I assumed that to mean "a condition of warranty." That word "assume" bit me again! Anyway, I agree that nitrogen may be the optimum thing to use in tires. But from the research I've done (and as Gary also noted) in comparing nitrogen to compressed air I've learned that the biggest problem with using compressed air is it's possible water content. It's actually the water that causes most of the problems because water expands when heated and also causes the corrosion on the inside of the rims and inflation valves. How many times have you seen moist air coming out of your compressor because you forgot to drain it or don't have a dryer attached to it. Putting moist air into your tires is the main culprit in inconsistent tire pressures and premature tire rot and leaks due to corrosion of inflation valves. So in my "opinion", if one uses dry air I believe there would be little significant difference than in using nitrogen. So how much criticism is that statement going to draw!

I worked at a dealer that had the nitrogen fill.  I used it for my trip west last year and felt it helped.  At our place, you got a card and you could be filled at any other Nitro dealer for free. 

Had new tires put on and they are just air.  I do see a pressure difference more now than before. 

TIC... I think I will try Hydrogen in my tires. The RV will weigh less and should improve my fuel consumption mileage.

Maybe helium will work as well.

  I think I will stick with 98% nitrogen. Does water really hurt rubber? Probably lubricates the rim joints better than no moisture at all.  What do I know?    ;D

Carson FL

I was looking for anything that would improve MPG. If I could get more mpg between fill ups that would help with not having to stop with the trailer for fuel as much as I have to now.

skirk55

I suggest you search the internet...nitrogen versus air in tires. You'll get alot more information (both technical and opinions) compared to the relatively small amount of info you'll get this way. After reading the tons of info then you can decide which one you want to use.

Here's one article: http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/car-advice/20070714_driving_dollars_tires_nitrogen_a1.asp

I work for a John Deere Dealer and Consumers Report gave a Time Cutter Lawnmower a very good rating. I work on them and I can tell you they are JUNK. So that kills my trust in them. The people that have taken there time replying to my question have given me very good information. They have experience going down the road. That knowledge is the best and that is  what I trust. Thank you everyone out there for the information.   

In the enclosed web site you will fund a list of very informative tire publications from Michelin. Keep in mind that when they are talking about RV tires they are only referring to tires used on self propelled RVs.

On page 37 of the truck tire service manual you will find a paragraph that addresses Michelin?s position on the use of 100% nitrogen in their tires.

http://www.michelintruck.com/michelintruck/toolbox/reference-material.jsp

FastEagle

skirk55 said:

I was looking for anything that would improve MPG. If I could get more mpg between fill ups that would help with not having to stop with the trailer for fuel as much as I have to now.

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There is no way that nitrogen, in and of itself, will improve fuel mileage. As long as you check and maintain the tire pressures on a regular basis, the tires will still be round and give the same performance while you drive regardless of whether they are filled with air or nitrogen. Yeah, after 6-12 months of neglect, the nitrogen filled tires may have lost a pound or two less of pressure but the difference in fuel mileage over that period would be negligible.

The Michelin Truck Tire Service Manual referenced above has some excellent info & pictures on tire wear problems. See Section 3 - Extending Tire Life. A lot of good info in that manual if you are technically inclined.

http://www.michelintruck.com/assets/pdf/MICHELIN%20Truck%20Tires%20Service%20Manual_Aug2009.pdf

Personally I like the idea that one poster gave...put helium in the tires. Maybe if it was in the spare also you might get enough lift to get a few feet off the road. That would ensure maximum life from the tires and solve the problem of getting caught in traffic. I'm sure MPG would improve too. Might have to use mudder tires though in order to get some propulsion. If anyone tries it let me know how it works.

30yrnavy said:

Personally I like the idea that one poster gave...put helium in the tires. Maybe if it was in the spare also you might get enough lift to get a few feet off the road. That would ensure maximum life from the tires and solve the problem of getting caught in traffic. I'm sure MPG would improve too. Might have to use mudder tires though in order to get some propulsion. If anyone tries it let me know how it works.

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You've been eating too many Navy beans and are as gassy as the post you referred to.  ;D  BTW, were you a "zero" or enlisted? (ATCS ret)

ATCS (ret) Molaker

Congratulations on your service to our fine country. I was a AE for 16 years. Went from AECS to Warrant and then to LDO. Retired as a LCDR. 11 1/2 years on carriers gave me plenty of time to eat lots of Navy beans. BTW, that's a good idea on getting a bit more lift.

30yrnavy said:

ATCS (ret) Molaker

Congratulations on your service to our fine country. I was a AE for 16 years. Went from AECS to Warrant and then to LDO. Retired as a LCDR. 11 1/2 years on carriers gave me plenty of time to eat lots of Navy beans. BTW, that's a good idea on getting a bit more lift.

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Actually, I was an AQ, but they did away with that rate after I retired and made me be a tweetybird.  I made a few carrier cruises myself, but nowhere near 11 1/2 years of it.  But, it sounds like you had a good career - nice advancement.  Guess that means you was both enlisted AND a zero.

IIRC the reason nitrogen was originally used in aircraft was because Nitrogen is not impacted by temperature changes as much as normal air.
(Note: aircraft that go above 10K get really cold.  If the tires get cold they loose pressure.  When its time to land they have tires with low pressure because of the temp change.  When they warm up they will be back to the desired pressure)

I also believe that folks that race use it for the same reason. They want the tire to not change the way it performs when its in use.  Tire pressure changes impact tire performance in racing.  Tire goes on cold and heats up in racing.

Said a littel differently tires inflated with nitrogen do not change pressure in relation to temperature changes as much as do tires inflated with air.

I doubt there is much difference in maintaining either for correct pressure.

I also think that incorrect pressure on either impact MPG.

IIRC the reason nitrogen was originally used in aircraft was because  Nitrogen is not impacted by temperature changes as much as normal air.

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There are no gasses that don't change pressure with a change of temperature. Basic physics, i.e. Boyles Law and Charles Law of gasses,  says so. But add a bit of moisture and the normal gas behavior gets whacky, because water reacts differently than gases and in fact has a number of anomalies in its behavior (like expanding when it freezes instead of contracting). Pure Nitrogen does not contain any moisture, so it responds evenly to temperature changes. But so does pure air and pure oxygen, as long as they stay dry. Major commercial tire shops and fleet garages usually have dryers on their air compressors and pump dry air into tires. The air brake system on a diesel RV has an air dryer onboard for the same reason.


Here is a Nascar article about nitrogen that explains this. You don't need to read all the formulas unless you want to prove what the text says for yourself.

http://www.getnitrogen.org/sub.php?view=nascar