Diesel vs. Gas, Sanity Check

[RogerE]

Another big issue to consider is cargo carrying capacity.  A large gas coach (in the 36 - 37 foot range) will typically have very little cargo carrying capacity - perhaps 1,000 pounds or less.  A diesel pusher in the 40 foot range will have MUCH more.  As an example, we looked at the Winnebago Adventurer 37F (a large gas coach).  The cargo carrying capacity was barely 1,000 pounds.  Our Journey 42E that we eventually purchased has a 10,000 pound cargo carrying capacity. 

 

[John From Detroit]

Diesels as a general rule can haul more "Stuff" (Toys, Cloths, Food, Tools, and such) they can tow more towed (LIke a stacker trailer with both a boat (on it's own trailer) over a car that / SUV big enough to tow the boat) and so on.

They also cost more.

If I had it to do over, and had the money. I would very likely choose Diesel.. As it is I do not now nor did I then have the money, and I am more comfortable working on a gas engine (Though that I can fix easily enough) So I went with Gasoline.

But I would not mind converting to Diesel,, So rest your mind.

Also, Second, (3rd, 4th, 5th Nth) thinking is just part of the process.... Very few can make a choice and not have second thoughts while waiting.. Just do not worry about it.. You made a good choice.. I'd say "Live with it" save,, in this case "Enjoy It" is more accurate...  The advantages to Diesel are fairly great.

My Next motor home (Shoudl that ever happen) WILL be a Diesel.

 

[Ken & Sheila]

  Our Journey 42E that we eventually purchased has a 10,000 pound cargo carrying capacity.

Yes, but you still have to watch your front axle load.

 

[OLDRACER]

What I want is a SMALL Diesel, but not one of the tiny versions. Perhaps 30 foot max, diesel, class A, but with a full air suspension and equivalent brakes.

The "Big Rigs" are beautiful, but they won't go where I want to go and park where I want to park.

 

[Lou Schneider]

When you get into the smaller rigs, you're limited to FREDs - FRont Engine Diesels.  The rear powerplant is just too long and heavy to hang behind the rear axle of a short vehicle.

With a FRED, you'll have the same chassis and suspension as an equivalent gasser.  There isn't much difference in performance or durability between a light truck gas or diesel engine.  The diesel will get better fuel mileage, partially offset by the higher cost of fuel, because diesel contains more BTUs per gallon than gasoline.  And it will develop it's power at lower RPMs.  But as far as actual performance and durability goes, it's pretty much 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other.

When you're talking about diesel pushers, you're talking about an entirely different class of engine.  It isn't the diesel itself that gives it greater reliability - it's the basic construction of the engine.

The major engine makers are now making industrial grade spark ignition engines - they're used in trucks and buses that run on CNG and/or propane fuels.  Reliability seems to be about the same as their diesel cousins.

 

[pml]

Tiffin makes a  small DP the Breeze comes in a 28' and 32' floor plan

 

[Dan23]

What I want is a SMALL Diesel, but not one of the tiny versions. Perhaps 30 foot max, diesel, class A, but with a full air suspension and equivalent brakes.

The "Big Rigs" are beautiful, but they won't go where I want to go and park where I want to park.

Your requirements sound like mine.

My post got pulled on a different forum for saying this, but diesel is a dirty fuel to handle in my opinion. It is inevitably spilled near the pumps to be tracked inside. The used diesel motor homes I've looked at all had evidence of his. Agree or disagree. Just my opinion.

I have one diesel engine-- a tractor-- and wish it was gas. It is not. To get what else I wanted, I bought diesel. Similarly, in buying a motor home, I would buy whichever engine would work best for me. Again, in my opinion, with how the original poster said he'd be using the unit... I'd seriously consider diesel.

 

[khogle2]

Another big issue to consider is cargo carrying capacity.  A large gas coach (in the 36 - 37 foot range) will typically have very little cargo carrying capacity - perhaps 1,000 pounds or less.  A diesel pusher in the 40 foot range will have MUCH more.  As an example, we looked at the Winnebago Adventurer 37F (a large gas coach).  The cargo carrying capacity was barely 1,000 pounds.  Our Journey 42E that we eventually purchased has a 10,000 pound cargo carrying capacity.

The newer Winnebago ratings are OCCC not the same as CCC. My 2013 37F with 24K GVW, OCCC is 3261 lbs. so I suspect your actual CCC is much less than 10,000 pounds.  This is the yellow label on the Winnie's, and others post June 2008.

i.e. The old ratings were greatly influenced by sleeping or seatbelt positions x 154 lbs. I have 7 seatbelt positions but never carried 7 passengers, so the newer OCCC lists seat belt positions but allows you to calculate your own passenger weight.

Another example is you calculate and deduct actual water gallons carried.

 

[RogerE]

The newer Winnebago ratings are OCCC not the same as CCC. My 2013 37F with 24K GVW, OCCC is 3261 lbs. so I suspect your actual CCC is much less than 10,000 pounds.  This is the yellow label on the Winnie's, and others post June 2008.

i.e. The old ratings were greatly influenced by sleeping or seatbelt positions x 154 lbs. I have 7 seatbelt positions but never carried 7 passengers, so the newer OCCC lists seat belt positions but allows you to calculate your own passenger weight.

Another example is you calculate and deduct actual water gallons carried.

My Yellow Sticker states "Combined weight of occupants and cargo not to exceed 10,277 pounds".  I rest my case.

 

[RogerE]

Yes, but you still have to watch your front axle load.

You are of course correct, but the same is true for all coaches - not just coaches with a large carrying capacity. Weight on each individual axle and weight side to side need to be evaluated and kept within limits.  Our coach is now fully loaded and we are headed for a scale as soon as a couple of repair issues are finalized.  I suspect that when we do get to the scale I will be well within limits overall.  I also plan to have the tag axle air bag pressure adjusted as required to balance the load front to rear.

My point in my original post was that with a large gas coach you typically have a small fraction of the carrying capacity that you have with a diesel of comparable or larger size.  I did not realize this when we first started shopping, and wanted to point it out to the original poster. 

Weight and balance issues (which are important) aside, our Winnebago 42E Diesel has 10 times the carrying capacity of a Winnebago 37F gasser.  That is a big deal if you want to put more than two people and a few hundred pounds of belongings in the coach. 

 

[khogle2]

My Yellow Sticker states "Combined weight of occupants and cargo not to exceed 10,277 pounds".  I rest my case.

OCCC and CCC are very different as previously explained. So your 10277 lbs. is actually about 3 times the OCCC of a 37F which is 3261.

CCC is a very much lower number.

To the original poster, or for anyone else interested in learning about this calculation, Winnebago has a bulletin out on it.

This is a good explanation in another forum
http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=26115.0

 

[garyb1st]

I just checked NADA for 40ft Tiffin motorhomes.  If the Cummins engine is actually a 360, the unit must be a 2009, 2010 or 2011 Phaeton, the only years they came with that engine according to NADA.  Average retail for a 2011 model is about $191,000.  The 2009 year has an average retail of about $147,000.  That's a $44,000 difference.  Part of that is the higher cost of the newer 2011 compared to the 2009.  However, a big piece of that delta is depreciation.  I can't imagine that the depreciation on a motorhome that costs more $150,000 will be any less than $25-30,000 over the 5 years you intend to use it.  It could be a lot more.  That and the sales tax you will pay if you don't live in Oregon, Nevada or one of the other states that doesn't have a sales tax will put your 5 year depreciation and immediate tax expense at $40,000 or more.  That's $8,000 a year.  Why are you even looking at fuel and maintenance costs. 

Obviously, you have a bad case of sticker shock.  Yup, the cost of admission to this club is quite high.  So maybe an older diesel.  Buy one that is 7 years old and you can still get a warranty.  A 7 year old Phaeton is  about $120,000.  That's $70,000 less than the 2011.  The depreciation and sales tax alone will be considerably less.   

Now I don't own a motorhome so maybe my $.02 doesn't count.  But didn't you say you wanted to see the country.  Sure a diesel is nice.  I'm looking for one myself.  But honestly, if I could find a gasser in my price range that's up to the task, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.  My problem is I may be pulling a car hauler and I live in the West.  A gasser just isn't up to the task.  You also mentioned you're not going to be full time.  So the limited carrying capacity of a gasser is another issue that may not be germane.  My wife and I have been on the road for as long as 3 months.  We did it in a travel trailer.  The carrying capacity of the trailer is 1,500 lbs.  We maxed out because out trailer is a toy hauler and we carried a 500 lb motorcycle in the garage.  That left 1,000 lbs in the trailer and maybe another 500 lbs in the truck.  I can't imagine ever having anywhere near the 10,000 lbs mentioned in this thread.  Other than furniture, I doubt we even own 10,000 lbs of STUFF.  Seriously, what are you guys carrying that weighs that much.  If my dear wife brought even 1/3 that amount, we'd be visiting a marriage counselor. 

I also don't see you spending a lot of time in RV resorts.  They're OK.  But unless you're planning on staying at a park for a month, they're quite expensive.  It's also hard to see the country if you're at one location for a month.  If you really want to see the country, you're going to be on the road a lot.  That may be reason enough to buy a diesel.  From what I read, some gassers can be difficult to keep between the white lines.  Given the number of threads I've read, driving the ones that really wonder is not much fun.  Fixing them can be costly. 

So don't despair.  Take your time and think it through.  You want to enjoy the next 5 years.

Good luck   
   

 

[RogerE]

The newer Winnebago ratings are OCCC not the same as CCC. My 2013 37F with 24K GVW, OCCC is 3261 lbs. so I suspect your actual CCC is much less than 10,000 pounds.  This is the yellow label on the Winnie's, and others post June 2008.


i.e. The old ratings were greatly influenced by sleeping or seatbelt positions x 154 lbs. I have 7 seatbelt positions but never carried 7 passengers, so the newer OCCC lists seat belt positions but allows you to calculate your own passenger weight.

Another example is you calculate and deduct actual water gallons carried.

You are correct that OCCC is the standard since 2008.  OCCC is defined as follows:

"OCCC (Occupant and Cargo Carrying Capacity) (for Motorized RVs only):  This figure states the maximum allowable weight of all occupants (including the driver), plus the weight of all food, tools, full fresh water tanks, full LP-Gas tanks and personal belongings.  The maximum allowable weight of passengers is based on the number of seat belted positions in the motorized RV.  The regulation also states that the ?tongue weight of towed trailer counts as cargo.?

I was comparing OCCC to OCCC (apples to apples, yellow label to yellow label) when we were deciding which coach to buy.  The 37F that I looked at had an OCCC of just over 1,000 pounds which shocked me, and I had a long conversation with the salesman about that fact.  I am trying to figure out in my mind how that could be so different from your OCCC.

Our 42E OCCC is just over 10,000 pounds. 

CCC now only applies to towable vehicles, not motorhomes.

 

[Larry N.]

Other than furniture, I doubt we even own 10,000 lbs of STUFF.  Seriously, what are you guys carrying that weighs that much.  If my dear wife brought even 1/3 that amount, we'd be visiting a marriage counselor.

 

That figure has to include fuel, water, and sewer, as well as people, clothes, tools, kitchen supplies, computers, hobby supplies, and all the other odds and ends people use -- for a full timer, it's everything they own (other than what's in storage somewhere).

Note that my rig carries 150 gallons of diesel (1050 lbs @ roughly 7 lbs/gal), 100 gallons of fresh water (800 lbs at roughly 8 lbs/gal) and has a 70 gal. grey tank and 45 gal. black tank. My wife and I together weigh near 400 lbs. I probably have over 100 (maybe 200) lbs of tools on board, plus who knows how much in books to read, grill, chairs, small table, emergency kit, spare filters, RV antifreeze, first aid kits, maps, musical instruments, TV/radio/satellite/antennas/etc. Things add up faster than you might think.

Plus, it's good to have some extra capacity (tow a trailer -- hitch weight, kids/grandkids, pets, pet food and supplies). And many options on rigs aren't figured into your base weight, so they come out of that "10,000 lbs of STUFF." It's not just what the wife brings on board.

 

[TonyDtorch]

Weight and balance issues (which are important) aside, our Winnebago 42E Diesel has 10 times the carrying capacity of a Winnebago 37F gasser.  That is a big deal if you want to put more than two people and a few hundred pounds of belongings in the coach.

the carrying capacity difference ( or the GVW ) of these two rigs is the difference in the number of tires and axles, not gas or diesel.

Tires are tires.... most 22.5" tires are rated around 10k lbs, so the more tires you have the more you can carry.

any rig with the same axles and tires has the same cargo capacity,  it does not matter if it's gas or diesel,

I had a gas powered 3 axle work truck that had a GVW of 54K lbs....and yes it was slow but it still got to every job site.

and,  if you're in a hurry to get somewhere you shouldn't be driving a motorhome.

 

[fthomas]

Reflecting on my days as a truck driver, I got to drive a lot of different trucks and combinations. What I've found is two things - first diesel engines do last longer. If you are going to be putting a lot of miles on a MH, then diesel is the way to go. Also, I did find that the diesel driven trucks had just a bit more bottom end then their neighboring gas brothers. Now, a good transmission can weigh this out, but I still preferred driving the diesel over the gas.

With all that said, because we are not yet full-timers, I purchased a gas MH for the time being. Why? It was the right coach, at the right price and it suits our current needs. If I was to consider full-time, the overall MH's on the market that cater to a full-timer are normally diesel pushers, so that will probably be the way I'll go too.

But time will tell. I believe that the question here shouldn't be gas or diesel - but more in the lines of 'Is this coach going to give me what I need?'.

Frank

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

I think that for the same size coach, a diesel will deliver enough better fuel economy to offset the higher fuel price per gallon, but not enough to offset the higher purchase price. However, a diesel pusher will generally have enough other features and benefits (air suspension, more carrying capacity, quieter, less engine wear, etc.) to possibly make the extra cost worthwhile to you. Not all DPs are equal, though, and the higher end models tend to deliver more and hold value better, so an older but top-of-the-line model is often a good choice.

 

[garyb1st]

That figure has to include fuel, water, and sewer, as well as people, clothes, tools, kitchen supplies, computers, hobby supplies, and all the other odds and ends people use -- for a full timer, it's everything they own (other than what's in storage somewhere).

Note that my rig carries 150 gallons of diesel (1050 lbs @ roughly 7 lbs/gal), 100 gallons of fresh water (800 lbs at roughly 8 lbs/gal) and has a 70 gal. grey tank and 45 gal. black tank. My wife and I together weigh near 400 lbs. I probably have over 100 (maybe 200) lbs of tools on board, plus who knows how much in books to read, grill, chairs, small table, emergency kit, spare filters, RV antifreeze, first aid kits, maps, musical instruments, TV/radio/satellite/antennas/etc. Things add up faster than you might think.

Plus, it's good to have some extra capacity (tow a trailer -- hitch weight, kids/grandkids, pets, pet food and supplies). And many options on rigs aren't figured into your base weight, so they come out of that "10,000 lbs of STUFF." It's not just what the wife brings on board.

Thanks Larry.  As they say, try to learn something everyday.  Hopefully I have enough days left to get this motorhome thing right.  I thought I had the carrying capacity figured out.  Most of what you say makes sense.  While I thought fuel was included in the dry weight I'll defer to you on that one.  I checked a few online brochures and interestingly, with the exception of Newmar, most don't address it.  At least not directly.  The RV sale folks must love that.  The 2013 Newmar King Air brochure defines Dry Weight and they include fuel, engine oil and coolants.  So it's a mixed bag.  I guess the real solution is to simply weight the vehicle empty.  But without fuel that's going to be difficult.               

One of the things I hadn't thought about was the added pin weight when pulling a trailer.  That by itself would most likely put me over the GVWR if I was pulling with a gasser. 

But still, 10,000 lbs.  Does that include the weight of your airplane?     

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

We have an excellent RV Glossary here on RVForum, and it has definitions for terms like Unladen weight, UVW, CCC and OCCC, etc. Lots of other useful info as well and some of the entries go well beyond a simple definition. There is a button for Glossary on the menu bar.

"Dry" weight isn't typically used with motorized vehicles because of the fuel tank question.  Dry weight is usually applied to towable RVs, so  a motor fuel tank is not a concern. Unladen Vehicle Weight (UVW) is used with motorized vehicles and that includes a full tank of motor fuel.

 

[Larry N.]

But still, 10,000 lbs.  Does that include the weight of your airplane?     

I actually don't have quite that much on my rig. When I bought it, it was registered in another state, so the dealer had to weigh it before the sale. With about 15% fuel (per the electronic gauge) it came to a bit over 42,000 lbs. So with full fuel it'd be a bit over 43K. That leaves a bit under 7K for water and cargo and people. And loaded to go, including full fuel and water, with empty holding tanks, I'm a bit over 46K, sometimes closer to 47K. So I have weight (not space) for that airplane.  ;D or for other odds and ends I pick up on the road.

BTW, I rounded off because I don't have the exact figures handy. Oh, yes -- max is 50K. In addition, it can tow up to 10,000 lbs max.

Addendum: The axles don't have near the margin the totals above might seem to indicate, though I don't have the figures handy.