firearm question

[Lowell]

John,
I guess I did misunderstand your comments. Thanks for the clarification.
Jake

 

[Carl L]

One thing I find disturbing about some films and t.v. shows is that they show someone in law enforcement shooting at a fleeing suspect - on foot or in a car. That clearly flies in the face of law which says that the use of deadly force is no longer warranted when the threat of deadly force has been removed. That's not to say the officer can't shoot at a suspect who's running away but firing over his shoulder or shooting out the window of a fleeing car. 

I believe the rule is that an officer can shoot at a fleeing suspect, if there is good reason to believe that he still constitutes a danger.  The simplest case would be a suspect carrying a firearm or other weapon.

 

[John From Detroit]

The rules regarding a police officer shooting at a fleeing subject are a bit more complex.  Though it is clear that some idiot running from the cops is not a threat to the officer (unless, of course, he is shooting back) he may still be a clear and present danger to others the officer is sworn to protect.  And thus "Deadly" making the use of deadly force proper.

And another thing is the officer may not be shooting at the suspect at all,  I know of many police chases where the suspect's car, specifically the tires, was in fact the target, and those tires were indeed properly "killed" by the officer's excelent shooting.. The suspect, on the other hand, was not so much as scratched.

Today, mostly because it's safer, the officers are more likely to use "Stop Sticks" Whcih also let the air out of the suspect's tires..... I know of cases where this did not help much, and in at least one of those the very high on many drugs suspect did in fact wind up with additional injuries.... You see, even after the truck caught fire he would not stop and he ended up with 3rd degree burns

 

[Woody]

There was a Federal Law passed sometime last year that now allows a police officer, active or retired, to carry his firearm in any state as long as he possesses a valid carry permit in his home state. Our dept. made a point of letting us know that it applies to retirees also since we receive a free lifetime permit at retirement.

Laws regarding the use of deadly force against a fleeing subject vary widely from state to state. In Indiana a law enforcement officer, (*not a private individual*} allows the use of df to prevent the escape of someone accused of a forcible felony.

Woody

 

[VnSr4JC]

I disagree with most of you about this.  Most states have concealed carry laws.  I believe Illinois & Wisconsin are the last 2 that do not allow it.  In Montana anyone (besides a convicted felon) can carry in the open as well.  Many states allow you to carry a weapon in their state if you have a permit in a state they recognise. Mace & pepper spray maybe illegal in some areas too, especially Canada, at least the last time I was there about 15 yrs ago.  Wasp spray would probably just tick off someone & surely won't deter a bear, cougar, dog, etc.  However, wild animals, except the human kind,  rarely attack man.  You can view the state laws on the internet or contact your local gun dealer, or your state or local law enforcement agencies for laws too.
That said, my wife & I would never be without our handguns again, which is why I won't go to Canada anymore.  If a state doesn't allow me to protect my family &/or myself, then I either bypass that state or evoke my 2nd amendment rights (which can lead to an arrest).  I agree completely that your ignition should be your 1st defense but ever since the police can't be every where & bad people do exist I also need to be able to protect myself.  As I get older I know my fighting abilities have declined & sadly that also means I am an easier target for some criminal element as well. 
Funny thing about that Canada trip, I left my weapon home knowing handguns were illegal & took mace with me instead.  I carried it on my belt through customs & all over until I was stopped by the police about 3 days into the trip.  Unbeknownst to me it was illegal, & I mean big time illegal! I could have been charged with a felony for carrying an illegal weapon.  I would have been locked up in jail for the weekend then deported on Monday & all my belongings, truck, camping gear, etc would have been confiscated too.  Thank God the Officer was nice about & only confiscated it, saying he was not even allowed to carry mace so next time bring my gun.

 

[John From Detroit]

The thing I most dislike about guns is the fact the gun most likely to shoot you is the one you own. And I'm nto talking about accidential shootings here, I mean homicide (attempted or successful)

I prefer weapons that can not be so easily turned against me.  So far that has worked well

 

[fairydust39]

? ?My husband and I are new RV'ers and we decided that we will use Bear Spray! I know from reading, that it will stop a Bear or a large dog. It will spray for 20 ft. It blinds them (people,bears or dogs)temporarily and we would have a chance to escape! It is not against the law to carry it!
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Al and Shirley

 

[Alaskansnowbirds]

  It is not against the law to carry it!
                                    Al and Shirley

Just to clarify. Not against the law in the U.S.  It IS against the law in Canada!

 

[Ray D]

:-\  I hate myself, when I do something like this. I have been scratching my head about "Bear Spray." Finally remembered. I think that is Pepper Spray, in a big can. Am I right?

If so, I had some. I kept it in the glove box, in my car. One day, down by the river. I was "staked out" to watch something, which I was doing with considerable interest. Then, I heard a hissing inside the car. At first it sounded a bit like a rattle snake. It wasn't. It was worse than that, much worse!

I located the sound and opened the glove box. Got an immediate whiff of that stuff, saw a small cloud coming out right next to the valve, grabbed that thing and threw it out the driver's side window!

Well, not quite out. I had forgotten that the window was up. It was clean. I didn't see it in the haste. The can bounced off and landed in my lap. The spray was hissing into my pants, where the top of my legs meet. That's OK, directions say it is only effective on mucus membranes. "Don't rub it into your eyes."

I opened the door, grabbed it again, and this time, got it out of the car. I got a bit of spray on my face, in the process. Not too bad, but not comfortable either. As I was splashing my face with a bottle of water I had with me, I noticed that more than mucus membranes seemed to be responding, below my belt. Actually, it felt like I was on fire, there.

Decided that pepper spray or not, I could not remove my pants in a public place. Drove home immediately. Only 3 miles, but it was 3 long miles! Stayed under the speed limit. Wouldn't do to have to carry on a long conversation with a cop, in my circumstances! Ran into the house and to the bathroom, getting ready for a bath as I went! I strung clothes from the car, all the way.

Yep, we had company. I didn't even notice, until I ask my wife to bring some clothes to me. By the time I got out, they had found my pants, smelled them, and figured it all out. Best joke they had ever seen. I had a difficult time of it, but laughed with them.

Be careful with that stuff!

Ray D.

 

[Karl]

Carl,

I believe the rule is that an officer can shoot at a fleeing suspect, if there is good reason to believe that he still constitutes a danger.  The simplest case would be a suspect carrying a firearm or other weapon.

Sorry for the late post, but disregarding how a particular D.A. might choose to view a particular situation after the fact, if the suspect is no longer a clear and present danger, i.e. merely running from the scene with a weapon but not aiming or actually shooting at someone, it is not normally justified to bring lethal force to bear to prevent his/her escape. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule, but they must be handled on an individual basis according to the circumstances.

A similar argument can be made against high-speed pursuits in motor vehicles. Unless you follow one of the primary rules of firearms usage - "Know your target, and beyond" - you, as a law enforcement officer, could possibly do far more damage to life and personal property by  engaging in such a pursuit than by backing off into a 'identify, follow, and arrest later' stance where innocent bystanders are not put in jeopardy. Shooting at a fleeing car or suspect can have dire consequences to bystanders or other motorists who suddenly are confronted with an out of control vehicle or hit with bullet that was not meant for them.

           

 

[ZuniJayne]

Do NOT,

I repeat do NOT carry any pistols, guns, rifles, shotguns, etc. with you unless you have had at least 40 hours of good quality "action" training.  This includes not only on the "how" to shoot the weapon, but the "when" and "why."

You must also know in your heart that use of this deadly force may KILL someone.  You MUST be psycologically ready for this outcome. "Threatening" and "winging" someone are NOT necessarily ways to keep you safe.

The best advice I have seen is, "Don't park anywhere that you feel the least bit funny about."

 

[MINIMH]

Do not carry it unless you WILL use it.

My parents died when I was growing up and I thought I was pretty callous and unfeeling.

No matter how you think you will feel if you kill a human being it will effect you for a very long time.

I would recommend enough training until you are able to pull shoot and fire as a natural act.

Once you are in a situation and the adrenaline is flowing your body is at a whole diffrent level of awareness.

Even a very good shot can have trouble with accuracy and movement.

I believe every person has the right to defend themselves but should be aware of what that responsibility entails.

Only consider shooting a person as you very last resort and rehearse possible senarios.

You will never be the same again if you pull that trigger.

With that said, make sure you know the laws of the state or country you are travelling to.


Come back and visit Missouri! The laws have changed:

Missouri has a peaceable journey law which allows you to carry a concealed loaded firearm in your vehicle without a permit.

http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/MSHPWeb/Publications/Brochures/SHP-863.pdf

 

[Ray D]

MINIMH:

Thank you for the invitation. Missouri is one of the states I follow very closely. I do plan to come back, in a year or two, probably. I was born and raised there.

Your carry laws are still a bit new. Your law enforcement agencies are still getting used to the fact that someone who has a Concealed Carry Permit has been through a very stiff nationwide background check and is reliably, publically documented, to have no criminal record. Cops in states where the CCW permits have been legal for some time, are generally pretty cool about it.

I haven?t had a traffic ticket in more than thirty years, but I?ve been stopped three times for traffic infractions without getting a ticket. My state doesn?t require notifying the officer that I have a permit. I, and most of those I know, tell them, anyway, right off the bat. The exchange is friendly and we go on to the reason for the stop. It?s no big deal.

My many Missouri friends tell me that law enforcement, there, is having a hard time getting used to it. A ticket is an unhappy occasion without a hassle. They tell me, now, that most of the problem still existing is in and around St Louis and Kansas City. So, Missouri is making progress. Things will settle down in another year or so when they figure out that the new carry laws have not caused  ?blood flowing in the streets.?

Thank you for your invitation. Maybe we?ll see each other, soon.

Speaking of hassle, for those of you contemplating getting a permit - - - .
In many states (all that I know of) your permit is tied, electronically, to your driver?s license. If you get stopped - that information will be transmitted to the officer stopping you. Courtesy is advised. Traveling in a state that is unfriendly to gun owners can result in a pretty unpleasant experience.

I entered Canada quite a few years ago, 20 or more, for a vacation. I was familiar with Canada?s gun laws and left my guns at home. I carefully searched my car for a random, forgotten, .22 cartridge or whatever. Believed it was ?clean.?  Missed something!

At the border crossing I was asked the firearms question. I answered no.  One of the most unpleasant experiences of my life followed. We got searched. The car got searched. And, in a very unfriendly, unpleasant way. We passed the inspection, cleaned up the mess and left. I wanted to turn around, and go home. I was over-ruled. We were there, five days.

On the third afternoon, we were shopping - well, I was waiting by the car. An officer I had noticed looking at my car, walked up to me and asked if I had any guns in the car. I was pretty surprised. I told him ?no.?  He walked around the car peering into the windows. I thought, ?here we go again!?  Nothing, of course.

When he finished, I asked him why he even asked the question. He led me to the back window where there was a little round NRA sticker. Holy Smoke! I told him that would be off of there, shortly. I said that I missed something. That is what I ?missed? when I ?sanitized? the car. I used my knife to remove the sticker, while I waited. NRA stickers are free. If you need to remove a gun, nix the sticker, too.

Ray D.

 

[fairydust39]

Sorry,I didn't know it was against the law in Canada.
I know campers use it and the rangers would rather you use that than a gun! It does not kill ,like guns.

Al and Shirley

 

[bluGill]

NEVER THINK, much less say "Shoot to kill"!    Never, that is for the movies.

You shoot to stop.  It happens that the only sure way to stop an attacker is to kill them, but the intent is not to kill, the intent it to stop.    Shooting someones hand off (which is impossible outside of the movies) will not stop them, so you don't shoot hands.  Shooting someones head can stop them, but the odds are high you will miss (Where will the bullet go next?).  Shoot at the chest and you have a large target, and a hit is very likely to stop the bad guy.  It will probably kill them, but that wasn't what you wanted.

God forbid you ever have to, but it is better to know what to do and not need it, than to need to do something and not know how.

Most people who carry a gun for protection will never need it.  Of the few that do, most will not need to pull the trigger because the presence of a gun being aimed will stop most attackers and bring the situation to one where there is no need to do more.

While many people who are shot a shot with their own guns, most guns never shoot anyone.  (less than 1%)  More people are killed with their own cars than with their own guns if you want to look at meaningless statistics. 

 

[VnSr4JC]

[br]Date Posted: June 25, 2006, 02:28:41 PM

  My husband and I are new RV'ers and we decided that we will use Bear Spray! I know from reading, that it will stop a Bear or a large dog. It will spray for 20 ft. It blinds them (people,bears or dogs)temporarily and we would have a chance to escape! It is not against the law to carry it!
                                    Al and Shirley

What if the wind is in your face???  EEE-OUUUUCCCHHH!!!

OH YES, another FYI, This months copy of the NRA's magazine AMerica's 1st freedom (July 2006) has an article in it that explains all this more in detail.  I'm sure they would be glad to help or send you copy of it.  Try going to www.nra.org  I love the monthly feature called the "Armed Citizen" whre it tells several stories of how the bad guys lost out when they picked a target they thought would be easy prey. 

 

[woodartist]

Sprays appear to be cumbersome and I can get the gun faster I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 comes to mind. We travel primarily in the West and I even carry a pistol when hiking...not concealed. I have a short  (legal length) shot gun loaded with buckshot and a 357. Never have had to use it but have had a few places that I had the antenna up. Yes, training is vital but can easily be done.
Hey, loved the story by Ray D. Classic I did a similar thing as a kid when trying to toss a fire cracker out a closed window Now I have guns : Maybe I should post my tag number

 

[Gottasmilealot]

With regard to the wasp spray, anyone know how that would work on wild animals like racoons or bears that decide they want to meet the neighbors?

 

[Carl L]

With regard to the wasp spray, anyone know how that would work on wild animals like racoons or bears that decide they want to meet the neighbors?

Raccoons:  run at them and yell blaaah.  They will get the hell out of there.

Bears, black:  yell blaaah but do not run at them.  It that fails, you  get the hell out of there

Bears, grizzly:  crank a round into the chamber of your Winchester 338 Magnum and squeeze off a round of 250gr bronze tip aimed at a point on the front quarter about 6-8" below the hump.  Better yet, because damn few RVers carry around a heavy caliber magnum rifle, get the hell out of there, period!

 

[Ray D]

Ordinarily, yelling ought to do it for the smaller animals and bears, too. Sometimes it doesn?t work. Then, throwing things can be helpful - firewood - rocks - pots and pans - whatever you can get some distance out of. Sometimes, nothing works.

Some years ago, a friend of mine and family were invited to go fishing with another friend and his new TT. First morning, the two men left early for some stream time. A black bear came into camp just after moms and kids got up. Nothing worked at chasing him off, so they all retreated to the TT. The bear decided to go inside, as well. Fortunately, he tried getting in via the left rear corner, tearing a section out of the aluminum siding.

In the midst of mayhem, 15 year old daughter had had enough. She lost it, in a rage! She grabbed Dad?s single action .44 Mag and went after the bear, screaming and cursing! She started pulling the trigger as soon as she rounded the corner, but didn?t know she had to cock the hammer on the single action gun. No shots fired! It was convincing to the bear, nevertheless, and he left in high gear. Several hundred dollars damage to the trailer.

Friend of mine and I decided to break in his new 4X4 pickup and camper shell, on a bear hunt. Went to Upper Bayhorse Lake, near Challis, Idaho. Found our bear, the first night.? :-\

In the middle of the night, us sound asleep, the pickup started bouncing. A black bear was bouncing on the bumper with his front feet. Then he started tearing at the edges of the tail gate. We figured,? as soon as he started working on the fiberglass camper shell, he would be in there, with us. Also, there was a handle in the middle of the tailgate. One tug, and we share the shell with the bear.?

You know how the inside discussion went! I don?t have to tell you! We had two 30-06s and two .357s. It was an urgent, technical discussion of the merits of each, tailgate penetrating power, and the noise effect inside a camper shell. Bear lost interest before we settled the matter. Figured we would be a long time forgetting that. Haven?t forgotten it yet! It was the only bear we saw, that trip!

Ray D.