Gas vs. Diesel under $7,000?

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claymation

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May 31, 2010
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Hi, I'm looking to buy a truck to haul a 5th wheel. I haven't bought the 5W yet, but I expect it will be about a 30 to 33 ft toy hauler. I'm in the debate of gas vs. diesel for the TV. I've been set on the diesel, but am rethinking it now. I know diesel is going to out perform the gas any day. The issue is, what about in my budget?  In the $5 - 7K range, am I better off buying a diesel with high milage that may need expensive work done in the near future on the transmission, etc, but will outperform the gas? Or am I better off getting the gas, which will save me money now, be newer, lower relative miles and less expensive repairs, but a bit less power and lower gas milage? Thanks!!
 
You may want to look more carefully at what the trailer you might get, will weigh.  You may find that what you want is too heavy to be towed by a gas engine.  Unless you go pretty far back and get one of the big gas burners which would really separate the mileage figures.  And create the opportunity for many repair bills.  After you figure what the proposed trailer might weigh, with your toys and all the other stuff you will want to take, it may eliminate enough choices to make it easier.
 
One thing to consider besides the initial cost and cost of repairs is the routine maintenance.  15 qts. of engine oil versus the usual 5, oil filter that cost 3 times more than one for a gas engine, fuel cost about .010 to .20 gal more.  Basically everything for a diesel cost more.  I have a diesel and it does a great job but when I bought it fuel cost less than gas and the mileage was much better.
 
A couple of thoughts (and I've towed with gas and diesel and openly prefer diesel):

The transmissions are similar in both, so you could (and probably will) have problems either way.  Gas transmissions tend to last a bit longer than their diesel counterparts mainly because the gas engines do not put out the same level of torque at low rpm, but that being said, the gas transmission will have spent a lot more time in a lower gear with the engine at red-line if it did much towing, so it is probably a toss-up as far as longevity.

tvman44 is correct -- costs will be higher with a diesel.  Fuel is more, oil, though similar in price, has higher volumes used, filters (if you use GOOD stuff from Fleet) are more expensive, the trucks weigh more so can tend to tear up front suspension parts, etc.  But, that being said, I've found that actual operating costs while on the road are less in the long run because virtually every part on a diesel truck is heavier duty than a similar gas model, and I can typically (with my 96 Dodge/Cummins 5.9 12V) double the miles per gallon of the gas trucks I pull alongside of during our pulls to off-road runs.

Total miles driven on diesel engines can also double or more the range of similar gas rigs.  On cumminsforum.com guys are reporting total miles on some of their trucks in excess of 1 million!  It is almost commonplace to see 500K on trucks that tow for a living.

I've seen 5vers pulled by decent set-up gas trucks, but you are almost certainly talking about a big block or V-10 to move that toy hauler.  My brother runs a motocross toy hauler and it is all his Chevy Duramax wants to pull once loaded with tools, bikes, and pit supplies.  My Dodge pulls better, but I have the advantage of engine mods for increased power that he doesn't have on the Dmax.  My son pulls w a 95 Ford 7.3 Powerstroke, and it also struggles to keep up with my Dodge, but I sure like both the Chevy and Ford platforms much better than the Dodge. If not for the Cummins, I'd have looked elsewhere, but it is hard to argue with cheap horsepower and as of right now, I have only about $500 into my truck after selling the snow plow and I'm pushing 300 hp and 700 torque.  Price wise, my brother bought a brand new truck, so he is into that thing for over $500 a month in payments.  My son paid $2500 for his Powerstroke, and it is paid for, but he needs a turbo down-pipe, new injector wiring harness, and new injectors -- somewhere in the $1000 range to complete.  I paid $400 for mine, sold the plow for $1000, and used the proceeds to start the modification process.  My next stage of mods will be transmission valve body, billet torque converter, then injectors and turbo, which should boost me to about 450 hp and over 900 ft. lbs. of torque.  I'll end up having about another $1400 in the truck before I make it pretty.  Just an example of how it can work for you.

Find a bargain like that and you are home free to fix the couple things the truck needs to give you many more years of service.
 
For the size/weight trailer you are talking about, go with the diesel and  3/4 ton or 1 ton. You should be able to find an older Ford F250/F350 7.3L Powerstroke in that price range. Set aside some bucks for repairs, though.
 
Thanks so much everyone. I forgot to clarify that I won't actually be hauling any toys. I'm converting the back into a recording studio, so I don't expect my GVWR to exceed 10,000 lbs. I've been mainly shopping for F-350 Powerstrokes. Do you think a 3/4 ton diesel could pull this load? Is it worth the small savings to go from 1 ton to 3/4 ton if I can? At 10,000 lbs, would any of you change your opinion to thinking that gas might be the better choice at this price point?
 
Hard to answer the towing question not knowing what year truck you might select but currently, diesel engines are rated to tow about 15,000#'s.  That is plenty for your rig and the difference between 3/4 and 1T would be mostly in carrying capacity.

I have a 6.0 Chevy rated to tow 10,5000#'s and tow a trailer that weighs about 8,000#'s with it.  I would not tow more with this rig.  I like a little cushion and that works for me.  Towing 10,000#'s with a gas engine would concern me.  Many do it, but there can be issues.  And keep in mind that many outfits that start our at 10,000#'s end up at 11,000#'s.

The advice seems to be that diesel is preferable for what you are considering.
 
The difference between F250 and F350 is the rear axle capacity, i.e. how much pin weight it can carry. Tow capacity is the same for otherwise identical trucks.

You need to review the Trailer Towing Guides for specifics. Here are two good sources:

https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/rv_trailer_towing/default.asp
http://www.trailerlife.com/output.cfm?id=42175

 
claymation said:
Thanks so much everyone. I forgot to clarify that I won't actually be hauling any toys. I'm converting the back into a recording studio, so I don't expect my GVWR to exceed 10,000 lbs. I've been mainly shopping for F-350 Powerstrokes. Do you think a 3/4 ton diesel could pull this load? Is it worth the small savings to go from 1 ton to 3/4 ton if I can? At 10,000 lbs, would any of you change your opinion to thinking that gas might be the better choice at this price point?

This was sort of answered by RV Roamer, but there is one other distinction between the 3/4-ton and 1-ton trucks -- the ride while empty.  Both will handle 10K on a 5th wheel, but the 1-ton will riide rougher than the 3/4 because of higher spring rates and heavier axle components (most of the time -- you have to check the individual truck -- sometimes there is little difference except the GVRW tag).  The real question is single axle or dually.  Costs go up with the dually because of special tires and more of them, plus the added penalty of the tire resistance on the highway decreasing fuel economy.

I'm planning on towing a 10K gooseneck RV/Toyhauler with my 3/4 ton Dodge detailed above.  I'm already pulling 8K on a bumper hitch and don't see an added 2K on a gooseneck much of an issue.  In fact, it will probably pull easier.  Every one I've pulled did, even when they weighed much more than a ball hitch trailer of similar size.
 
Thanks so much. That's an eye opener that the F-250 and F-350 can tow the same. That saves some cash on the initial purchase.  Does the same go for Dodges and Chevys or are there greater differences between 3/4 ton and 1 ton? Any other specific recommendations for a diesel in this price range?
 
You'll have to read the specs, and they may or may not tow the same based on manufacturers GVRW tag.  Though the hardware under the trucks is often identical, the factory may have decided to up the rating on the 1-ton models for any number of reasons known (sometimes) only to them.

For pure towing, I prefer the Dodge, and especially the earlier 12 valve Cummins models.  I dislike much about the truck, but I cannot fault the heavy duty components.  Ater 97 they went to electronic pumps, which typically have to be replaced at a fairly substantial cost, so prior to 97 models, if you can find them, are the cheapest towing powerhouse available.  It is SO easy to boost power on those models that almost anyone can do so in the home garage for minimal cost.  The deal being that Cummins builds the 6BT 6 cylinder diesel and rates it as a 335 or 37h hp engine (with 750 or 850 ft/lbs torque) for various uses including agriculture tractors, boats, drilling rigs, etc.  Dodge specified 160 hp (400 ft lbs torque) engine for their pickup trucks to meet emmissions requirements and to add transmission longevity.  Simply returning the engine to Cummins factory tune will unleash a towing monster!  Further boosts are available from that point.  Wit turbo , exhaust, and fueling upgrades an honest 500 hp and 1000 ft lbs of torque are possible and the engine will not only live, it will even get great miles per gallon.

You may want to go to a site called dieselbombers.com and start reading.  At that site, they deal with all the various trucks so you can get a great education about the various models and what they can do.  http://www.dieselbombers.com/index.php?referrerid=20443

The Ford Superduty and earlier Powerstroke in a 7.3 is also a great choice and there are a bunch of them out there.  The other aspects of the truck (fit and finish, cab, controls, electrical, etc.) are all better on Fords and Chevys, but they just don't have that Cummins diesel.

Here is a refined eBay search for mid-90s Cummins diesel 3/4-ton models for price comparison:
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/Cars-Trucks-/6001/i.html?Condition=Certified%2520pre%252Downed%7CUsed%7C!&Make=Dodge&Model=Ram%25202500&Model%2520Year=1997%7C1996%7C1995%7C1994&rt=nc&Fuel%2520Type=Diesel&_dmpt=US_Cars_Trucks&_fln=1&_mqf=0&_myi=1994-97&_qfkw=1&_ssov=1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m282
 
Every major pick-up manufacturer makes a 3/4 ton and a 1 ton, and the one ton is available in what they call "single rear wheel" (SRW) configuration. Usually the SRW one ton is for practical purposes identical to the 3/4 ton. Sometimes manufacturer ratings differ, though.
 
I live in a rural area where it seems like every other rig on the road is a truck, and I've spent the last two weeks talking to folks about what they like and don't like about their trucks.  No doubt about it, diesel wins every time. Not only that, folks actually brag about their diesel's superior towing power and longevity.  My local Chevy dealer just brought a truck by for me to look at, but it was gas.  He thought maybe I'd be towing a lighter TT and that's why he brought the gasser, but I'm going to go 5'er.  We had a long discussion about the merits of gas vs. diesel, and he agrees that diesel is the way to go. 

I also went to the local RV park and everywhere I looked, I saw diesel TV's.

Hope that helps :) 
 
yeah, definitely doing diesel. I started looking at Dodges. They seem to be a lot less expensive. Any opinions on Dodge vs. Ford?
 
Hard to beat the Cummins engine in the Dodge, but Ford and GM have it all over Dodge with their transmissions, especially the Allison in the GM diesel trucks. And Ford builds a nicer truck all around - there is a reason the Dodges cost a lot less. It's interior fit and finish as well as amenities and noise suppression. If you don't notice those differences when you drive them, then they aren't important to you and you may as well save the bucks.
 
RV Roamer said:
Hard to beat the Cummins engine in the Dodge, but Ford and GM have it all over Dodge with their transmissions, especially the Allison in the GM diesel trucks. And Ford builds a nicer truck all around - there is a reason the Dodges cost a lot less. It's interior fit and finish as well as amenities and noise suppression. If you don't notice those differences when you drive them, then they aren't important to you and you may as well save the bucks.
Are we talking about the newer trucks? A $7,000 truck with the Allison, a great interior, and great noise suppression? When I had a '95 Dodge Cummins, the best part was the engine. I also had a '90 Ford, interior was nice. I now have an '06 Dodge Cummins and a '99 Tahoe. Since I don't need my truck anymore, the Cummins in the Tahoe would be the ticket.
J
 
Not sure if this info applies to an under 7K rig, but you'll find some valuable info on MPG as well as on differential ratio recommendations for towing: http://www.thedieselpage.com/mileage.htm  The entire site is worth reading.

After hours and hours of reading and talking to folks, I've decided on a Duramax/Allison combo.  Something like this: http://tinyurl.com/353uwls
 
had an 01 03 05 07  duramax's.  All models I worked to death. Hauled 12,000 # to 17,000#  bumper pull equipment trailers.  Air spring for the rear are a must.  Sold an 03 ccsb with 140,000 miles on it. Never did anything to the trranny for maintanance the next guy drove ot to 230,000 miles somethingin the motor went bad. tranny no maintenance for him still worked great.  my choice 05 or 06 with miles on it.
 
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