Gas vs Diesel

[cadee2c]

Note: on a list of 27 surreal places to visit before you pass away, only three were in the U.S.

I've seen those lists, and I think I could die satisfied with my life, even without visiting them. Pretty pictures, but pictures are only one fraction of a second in one facet of an entire experience.

I've stood on the bank of a stream in the mountains in Oregon in August, with the smell of pines and the dirt and watched the sun reflecting of the swirling waters and the sunlight filtering down through the trees as they swayed in the breeze. No sound of any cars or trains or planes or lawnmowers, just nature on a peaceful sunny afternoon. It won't make any list but it sure makes me happy and gives me peace when I think of it even now, 30 years later

 

[cadee2c]

basically I'm gonna have to take the wife and trim it down to floor plan for her and making hard judgments on the chassis for me, as we wheel through the options. I just don't think it is a argument of absolutes or grand truths, but a process of compromises, hopefully informed compromises.

That's pretty much what I see advised throughout this forum. So much of an RV is put together by hand. Hands are attached to humans. Humans make mistakes, humans go out drinking the night before and come into work hungover. Or come in after being up all night with a sick child, or sick themselves, but not having any PTO. Humans are human, not precision machinery drilling in the exact same spot to the exact same depth as each RV goes past.

People who buy the RVs are human also. Humans who don't like the same things.  They have different needs, some have big heavy toads or lots of toys to haul around, some who just make due a little Honda and a bicycle. Some people spend all their time in the flat lands in the midwest or east coast while others spend it going up and down the mountains along the west coast. And then they change.

Roger, I think you keep having difficulty because you try to put everything into a logical neat linear order that is absolute. The reality is that there are no lines, its just a big jumbled pile of liquid sand. There is no equation for this, other than what you just stated. Go for the floor plan you like and get the best rig you can that works for you with what you have.

 

[RodgerS]

"Roger, I think you keep having difficulty because you try to put everything into a logical neat linear order that is absolute. The reality is that there are no lines, its just a big jumbled pile of liquid sand. There is no equation for this, other than what you just stated. Go for the floor plan you like and get the best rig you can that works for you with what you have."

Thanks, but I don't feel like I'm having any difficulty at all. I don't see that I'm trying to put everything into a logical next linear order that is absolute. But thanks for the psychological profile. I made my living doing research and due diligence, so maybe I'm just more careful and thoughtful than what you are used to dealing with....which is why I never lost a case as an expert witness...not once.

As some say, at least I didn't have to pay for the profile and I'm happy to not follow the mistake laden paths (I see as reasonably avoidable)  that some have happily followed. I just made it a point a long time ago to reduce my mistakes and bad judgments to what I feel is a very reasonable degree...of course that requires patience and curiosity and a pit bull character.

Bye...

Rodger, not Roger.

 

[Deano2002]

When the stuff being towed becomes an appreciable fraction of the weight of the towing vehicle you have introduced factors that can overwhelm even an experienced driver in a panic situation.  I'm not denying that it can be towed safely "most of the time" but grossly exceeding the GCWR reduces the driver's margin of error and increases the chances of an accident.  I taught physics for enough years to be able to easily calculate how having too heavy a trailer changes the dynamics of the situation for the worse.

You clearly have your mind made up and i don't expect for you to change it, but I hope others realize that GCWR's exist to do more than placate lawyers.

your comments would be true in many mechanical pieces of machinery, from passenger jets to farm tractors going down the road, lets not panic

 

[rvgeorge]

Old thread but I just wanted to add something else to it about the pushers. I cant remember the make of the RV's but we are at an RV show a few years back and one manufacturers had 3 pushers in a row on display. Looking around at the outside they all looked pretty much the same, same length etc. All were on Freightliner air ride Cummins engines etc.
First one was $250,000 we went in and it was very nice, the next one was $450,000 outside the same and inside was better but I thought to my self is it $200,000 better? Almost buy 2 of the first one. The third was $650,000 outside was not much different, nice paint, nicer stripes, inside was very nice, I was very impressed but I stopped to think is it $400,000 nicer than the first one that was built on the same platform? Same power plant, same transmission, etc? Not a chance, I love to look at the high dollar RV's but in my humble opinion they are overpriced.
If I spent $100,000 on the inside of my gas RV I bet it would look as good as that $650,000 unit. Probably wouldn't even need $100,000. LOL
seriously how do they justify the price of those interiors? marble floor? there are not many tiles in a RV, the cabinets? home kitchens are 10 times bigger and a 10th of the cost.
Maybe it's me. LOL

 

[billwild]

I am sitting here looking out at the big empty space in my backyard where my 2005 Holiday Rambler Endeavor used to sit. Sold it off about 2 weeks ago. I could put up with the fuel mileage, but the maintenance was over the top. In 7 years of ownership, I spent just over $19,728.00. Tires, batteries windshield, oil leak on motor, tires again, painting the caps, oil changes which I did myself, generator repair, on and on and on. I sure will miss cruising down the highway to Arizona for the winters, but there comes a time to check if it is all worth it. And I just did.


Bill  (Now RV free)

 

[Stephen S.]

Old thread but I just wanted to add something else to it about the pushers. I cant remember the make of the RV's but we are at an RV show a few years back and one manufacturers had 3 pushers in a row on display. Looking around at the outside they all looked pretty much the same, same length etc. All were on Freightliner air ride Cummins engines etc.
First one was $250,000 we went in and it was very nice, the next one was $450,000 outside the same and inside was better but I thought to my self is it $200,000 better? Almost buy 2 of the first one. The third was $650,000 outside was not much different, nice paint, nicer stripes, inside was very nice, I was very impressed but I stopped to think is it $400,000 nicer than the first one that was built on the same platform? Same power plant, same transmission, etc? Not a chance, I love to look at the high dollar RV's but in my humble opinion they are overpriced.
If I spent $100,000 on the inside of my gas RV I bet it would look as good as that $650,000 unit. Probably wouldn't even need $100,000. LOL
seriously how do they justify the price of those interiors? marble floor? there are not many tiles in a RV, the cabinets? home kitchens are 10 times bigger and a 10th of the cost.
Maybe it's me. LOL

I'd have to check under the surface... hardwood instead of fiberboard? better drawer slides? better hinges and latches, etc., etc. 

But yeah... it'd have to be a lot of differences to be worth $100,000 more.

 

[spacenorman]

Obviously the debate over gas vs diesel continues to rage.  It seems like for the most part - the arguments for or against tend to focus on the power plant itself.  To me - it's the vehicle's net carrying capacity to ultimately drives the decision.  Once the length of a gas power coach starts get much past 36 feet - the net carrying capacity of the vehicles start dropping to the point that you have to seriously assess whether there's enough room for you, your passenger(s) and all your stuff.  Once you start doing the math - it's not uncommon to find that a large gas coach only has 2,500 - 3,000 lbs of net capacity.  That can be cutting it pretty thin - especially if you're considering using it for a lot of extended travel.  Our desire to "full time" (or darn close to it) meant that we wanted a floorplan that had some room.  The couple of larger gas powered units we looked at wouldn't have left us with much carrying capacity for us and our "stuff".    The sticker on the door of the 43' tag axle equipped DP we ultimately went with says it has a net carrying capacity of 6,773 lbs.  I can fill the fresh water tank with 100 gallons - and still have 5,500+ pounds of capacity.  (Yes I know that's a little simplistic and that corner weights may reduce that a bit - but still, it's a far cry trying to shoehorn everything into a 2,500 lb limit on net cargo weight.

 

[timjet]

Norman, you bring up a good point for a newbee.
My research indicates: ? NCC (Net Carrying Capacity):NCC means the maximum weight of all occupants and goods including the driver, personal belongings, food, fresh water, LP Gas, tools, tongue weight of towed vehicle, dealer installed accessories, etc. that can be carried in the RV. NCC is equal to or less than GVWR (see listing) minus UVW (see listing). The term Cargo Carrying Capacity (see listing) is replacing NCC in new RVs.

OK, so how much NCC/CCC is enough? I have no idea how much I need for extended camping. I know everyone is different, but in general how much is enough?? And since NCC includes dealer installed accessories, how the heck does one determine how much those accessories weigh so you can determine how much stuff you can throw on your RV.

After you buy the RV you can go and weigh it, but it's a little late then.

 

[TonyDtorch]

the weight limits are the engineer approved max weights for factory warranty,  and not necessarily hard fast rules of the maximum you can safely carry...

it's an RV so even the cops don't care.

Whatever you feel safe driving with is probably good. .....the tire weight limit is really the most important weight limit so have it weighed at a scale.

if you ever want to see how far you can actually exceed the factory recommended warranty approved vehicle weight limits....

just look up some Utube videos of these same vehicles being used in the 3rd world countries... it's fun.

 

[tilliepeople]

I am looking at a 32 ft MH with a GM 6.5 turbo diesel.
Anyone have some insight to this engine

 

[530ktm]

I am looking at a 32 ft MH with a GM 6.5 turbo diesel.
Anyone have some insight to this engine

How about giving a little more info on this coach, like what it is and what year it is, etc.   

 

[TonyDtorch]

I am looking at a 32 ft MH with a GM 6.5 turbo diesel.
Anyone have some insight to this engine

....there really isn't too many problematic engines in motorhomes,  the engines, chassis, and transmissions are not where most of the problems are.

GM still makes good motors so don't worry so much about the motor, it's the home part,  that usually gives you all the problems.

 

[tilliepeople]

It's a 94 Fleetwood Flair with 77000 miles
It's in my price range ,but I know nothing about diesels and this is the first time I have ever ran across a 6.5 8cyl.
I now enough about what breaks and doesn't break on the interior/exterior to at least know what to look for.
My present 90 Winnebago is still nice but I am looking to update transmission from that old 3 speed ,plus a few other pet peeves

 

[spacenorman]

the weight limits are the engineer approved max weights for factory warranty,  and not necessarily hard fast rules of the maximum you can safely carry...

it's an RV so even the cops don't care.

Whatever you feel safe driving with is probably good. .....the tire weight limit is really the most important weight limit so have it weighed at a scale.

if you ever want to see how far you can actually exceed the factory recommended warranty approved vehicle weight limits....

just look up some Utube videos of these same vehicles being used in the 3rd world countries... it's fun.

Ah ... the go with what you feel approach to vehicle weight limits.  Hard to challenge that rationale! 

 

[docj]

Ah ... the go with what you feel approach to vehicle weight limits.  Hard to challenge that rationale!

Right, go with what you feel until you are involved in a serious accident and the attorneys for the other side get everything weighed and discover you are thousands of pounds beyond the GVWR and GCWR for your vehicle.  That's a great prescription for your insurance to wash its hands of your claim and for you to potentially face criminal charges for reckless endangerment. 

Sure, the chances are that this will never happen to you, but it will happen to someone.  That can be guaranteed.  IMHO it is totally irresponsible to be giving advice that one can and should ignore the weight ratings for your RV.  It doesn't matter if you drive a MH or a tow vehicle; they both have weight ratings that are there for a reason.  Ignore them at your own risk.

 

[spacenorman]

OK, so how much NCC/CCC is enough?

I'm sure that varies from RVer to RVer.  I can only speak to our situation. 

Our coach has a Gross weight of 43,000 lbs. ... and a NCC of 6,773 lbs.  Based on those figures - I'm running under the assumption that my "unloaded vehicle weight is roughly 36,300 lbs.  We weighted during one of our "mid trip" relocations during our Florida trip this past winter - and posted a gross weight of roughly 39,500 - which included 2/3rds+ full fresh tank, a freshly loaded fridge and pantry, ourselves along with our personal belongings.  I'm interpreting all that to mean that we had roughly 3,200 lbs of collective "stuff" on board at the time.  I think it's worth nothing that we're still pretty early in our transition into extended travelling - and are regularly adding little stuff to the collection of "stuff" we carry.  We just added two kayaks to the pile.  Granted those travel atop the toad - but it means that life jackets and paddles got added to the collection of stuff in the basement.  We're preparing for a 3 month trip out to Arizona that will have us returning to the upper Midwest in late November.  I'll be schlepping 10 gallons of anti-freeze (just in case we need to winterize before we make it home). We'll be carrying a "3 season" wardrobe.  While none of these things are backbreakers ... it doesn't take long for the pile to grow.  We're schlepping 3,200 lbs of "stuff" now ... and that number is growing.  I'm darn glad I'm not looking at a max NCC of 2,500 ... and wondering about what I should jettison.

 

[spacenorman]

Right, go with what you feel until you are involved in a serious accident and the attorneys for the other side get everything weighed and discover you are thousands of pounds beyond the GVWR and GCWR for your vehicle.  That's a great prescription for your insurance to wash its hands of your claim and for you to potentially face criminal charges for reckless endangerment. 

Sure, the chances are that this will never happen to you, but it will happen to someone.  That can be guaranteed.  IMHO it is totally irresponsible to be giving advice that one can and should ignore the weight ratings for your RV.  It doesn't matter if you drive a MH or a tow vehicle; they both have weight ratings that are there for a reason.  Ignore them at your own risk.

Aw Doc ... what are you worried about!?  The guy who posted that those are just "engineer approved max weights for the warranty  ... and not necessarily hard and fast rules of the maximum you can safely carry" has already explained that "it's an RV so the cops don't even care!".   

Like I said - how can ya argue with that rationale!? 

 

[TonyDtorch]

Ah ... the go with what you feel approach to vehicle weight limits.  Hard to challenge that rationale!

the weight rating has a lot to do with a warranty to carry this much weight for this many miles.... they can safely haul a lot more weight, but for less miles.

and yes, everyone has different driving skills.

I spent 35 years driving severely overload poorly maintained commercial trucks for a living (yes most times illegally)... so I do know how to drive heavily loaded vehicles.

Other people may have some trouble driving them.

most commercial trucks are allowed a fudge factor of about 200 lbs over weight per wheel when you go through scales, mobile mounted crane trucks are allowed to be 2,000 lbs over the front axle limits,  this is according to DMV rules.....go figure that ?

 

[docj]

I spent 35 years driving severely overload poorly maintained commercial trucks for a living (yes most times illegally)... so I do know how to drive heavily loaded vehicles.

I'll concede that you probably can drive an overloaded vehicle better than most people, but that overloaded vehicle still won't be as controllable as it would be if it wasn't overloaded.  So regardless of how well you can drive, your vehicle's performance will be somewhat degraded because it is over its weight rating.  So on an absolute basis you are endangering your life and the lives of other compared to how things would be if your vehicle was within its rate limits.  You obviously can do as you wish, but I hope that most readers of this forum understand that weight limits are there for a lot more than just warranty purposes.