Isaac-1
Well-known member
Given the way the price has been dropping on LiFePo4 Lithium batteries, and the price going up on Lead acid this is a lot less true than it was 2-3 years ago.
I can't believe it's not possible for us to boondock!
- Thread starter MN Blue Skies
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Given the way the price has been dropping on LiFePo4 Lithium batteries, and the price going up on Lead acid this is a lot less true than it was 2-3 years ago.
Skookum
Well-known member
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- Dec 19, 2018
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It's $1400 added to the cost of a nearly new 5th wheel. Nothing to sneeze at, but if it solves the problem and then some...
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
So you can boondock but the question becomes "for how long" without running the generator. A residential fridge typically consumes 1-2 KWH (Kilo-Watt Hours) daily and that's roughly the entire capacity of that single 12v, 105 AH, battery you have (105 AH x 12v = 1260 watt-hours. So your hubby is right about insufficient reserve for overnight use.
The obvious solution is to add more battery capacity. One more 105AH battery should get you thru a 24 hour cycle but you still end up running the generator a lot of hours to recover for the next day. More batteries stretches out the time between generator use but doesn't change the recovery runtime - you still have to replace every watt-hour used. Solar charging may help with that if you camp where direct sun is available.
The parameters here are space for batteries and their cost vs the amount of time you want to spend boondocking.
The obvious solution is to add more battery capacity. One more 105AH battery should get you thru a 24 hour cycle but you still end up running the generator a lot of hours to recover for the next day. More batteries stretches out the time between generator use but doesn't change the recovery runtime - you still have to replace every watt-hour used. Solar charging may help with that if you camp where direct sun is available.
The parameters here are space for batteries and their cost vs the amount of time you want to spend boondocking.
Isaac-1
Well-known member
Just to add to what Gary said there, LiFePo4 Lithium batteries can charge faster than Lead Acid given a large enough charger, and enough generator capacity. Better LiFePo4 batteries can fully charge in 1 to 1.5 hours (this is mostly a limitation of the BMS built into the battery), where Lead acid battery including AGM batteries will take about 4 hours to get to 80% state of charge, then about another 4 hours at a depreciating charge rate to get all the way to 100% charge. This means given a large enough generator / charger you can greatly reduce your generator run time hours per day with the same AH capacity LiFePo4 batteries.
Mark_K5LXP
Well-known member
A data point to consider is to run what ya brung - take the thing out and see how it operates with what's there. Even if it fails colossally you would have data to know what it would take to make it into what you want. When I got my class A it only had one working marine battery and it was almost enough to get us through a weekend, so I knew to double that with GC2's would easily check the box. 6 years later it still does.
Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
Isaac-1
Well-known member
Mark, I agree, though I must also say since upgrading to a bank of 430AH worth of LiFePo4 from a pair of 6V golf cart batteries 2 years ago, it feels like I have moved out of the stone age into the 21st century.
UTTransplant
Well-known member
Max, you just don’t have enough battery. My residential refrigerator needs 150 amp hours overnight. Yours might be smaller, but it will still use a lot more than you have.. 400 amp hours minimum is needed.
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
Good point, but the charger Max has is probably sized for the little 105 AH battery the factory installed. I'll bet it isn't capable of more than 50A DC output. Lithium still won't charge any faster than the charger can deliver.
Hello,
Just to add to the discussion. My wife and I boondocked in the KOFA & Quartzsite area for three weeks in our RV without dumping tanks and only using our generator to charge our two 6 volt batteries = 12 volts that provide 240 amps. No Solar.
Charge time was about 2 to 4 hours daily. Still had plenty of power to run the TV and DVD player each night off the batteries.
We save our batteries by using LED flashlights and also have LED bulbs in the RV for lights.
Our fridge is LP and electric which really helps extend the stay. We really enjoy this set up and have no real inconvenience during the whole time we were out. Part of getting along is not having to run all the appliances at a given moment but doing so when you are charging batteries. It is simple management.
I am amazed we can go that long.
Just to add to the discussion. My wife and I boondocked in the KOFA & Quartzsite area for three weeks in our RV without dumping tanks and only using our generator to charge our two 6 volt batteries = 12 volts that provide 240 amps. No Solar.
Charge time was about 2 to 4 hours daily. Still had plenty of power to run the TV and DVD player each night off the batteries.
We save our batteries by using LED flashlights and also have LED bulbs in the RV for lights.
Our fridge is LP and electric which really helps extend the stay. We really enjoy this set up and have no real inconvenience during the whole time we were out. Part of getting along is not having to run all the appliances at a given moment but doing so when you are charging batteries. It is simple management.
I am amazed we can go that long.
DonTom
Well-known member
You could reduce the gen run time by taking a portable one or two-hundred-watt solar setup with you in such a sunny place.
It's also nice to have a SmartShunt thingy to monitor your charge percentage so you do not run the genny longer than really needed.
That's the way I have been doing it in either of my RVs when I plan to boondock for a while.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Isaac-1
Well-known member
True, but given it is possible to get a 100 to 120 amp lithium compatible charger for around $200-$250 I don't see this as a big issue.
Which is exactly my point, that's the cost of a couple of lead acid batteries. Going lithium isn't just the cost of the battery, it's the bits needed to make it work properly that's the issue. Great if you boondock extensively.
At the end of the day, the buyer decides what's right for them. For us, two batteries and an hour with some cable and the job was finished.
Isaac-1
Well-known member
TonyL, their existing converter may work just fine, in this case we are just talking about a bigger converter / charger shortening the number of hours of generator run time.
p.s. when I converted to LiFePo4 about 2 years ago, my total expenditure was around $2,100 -$2,200, of that the batteries was $1,500, much of the rest was battery cables, distribution blocks, a MPPT solar charger / DC-DC Charger, probably $300 was related to relocating by battery bank into the climate controlled part of the RV. If I would have left them in the original battery location, my cost could have been as low as $350.
p.s. when I converted to LiFePo4 about 2 years ago, my total expenditure was around $2,100 -$2,200, of that the batteries was $1,500, much of the rest was battery cables, distribution blocks, a MPPT solar charger / DC-DC Charger, probably $300 was related to relocating by battery bank into the climate controlled part of the RV. If I would have left them in the original battery location, my cost could have been as low as $350.
jims94vmx
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2017
- Posts
- 110
We just stayed overnight at a harvest host. Low temp got to 30 degrees F.
Watched 2 hours of tv before bed (have a surround sound and subwoofer),
charged 2 phones, had a lamp on, 14 CF residential fridge running. At 6 PM no more charging from solar.
made coffee next morning using a Mr coffee plugged into inverter directly. By 9AM getting charge on batteries. I got down to 50% before charging again.
My system consists of 2 100aH lithium batteries, 720w of solar and only a 1500w inverter.
Colder temps let the fridge cycle less often so that helped as well.
It can be done reasonably. My biggest cost was the Battle Born batteries. So many good options and less expensive also. Do some research and see what your needs actually are.
Forgot about some water pump use. I am all in at about 3600 bucks.
Watched 2 hours of tv before bed (have a surround sound and subwoofer),
charged 2 phones, had a lamp on, 14 CF residential fridge running. At 6 PM no more charging from solar.
made coffee next morning using a Mr coffee plugged into inverter directly. By 9AM getting charge on batteries. I got down to 50% before charging again.
My system consists of 2 100aH lithium batteries, 720w of solar and only a 1500w inverter.
Colder temps let the fridge cycle less often so that helped as well.
It can be done reasonably. My biggest cost was the Battle Born batteries. So many good options and less expensive also. Do some research and see what your needs actually are.
Forgot about some water pump use. I am all in at about 3600 bucks.
Laura & Charles
Well-known member
Indeed! 4-6volt GC will come in much less $$.
Isaac-1
Well-known member
Lets run the numbers:
Checking online my local NAPA sells 225 AH 6V GC2 standard lead acid deep cycle batteries for $221 (after core charge as you do not have old ones to turn in) and AGM 6V GC2's for $441 each (with only 12 month warranty). To get 225AH at 12V you need a pair of these, or 4 will give you 450 AH for a cost of $884 for lead acid or $1764 for AGM. A LiTime 460AH battery with 250A BMS on Amazon is currently priced at $1499 Amazon.com Though note this model does not have low temperature charging protection, so must be located where it will never attempt to charge at below 32F or use an external battery low temperature cut off device like the Victron Low temperature battery protector Amazon.com Or a pair of LiTime 230AH batteries with low temperature charging protection for $619 each ($1238 total, plus a pair of quality interconnect cables) Amazon.com
To me that puts LiFePo4 at only 35% higher price than higher than Lead Acid, and actually cheaper than AGM, with a likely MUCH longer service life and better all around performance. In my experience with RV's, golf carts, boats, etc. deep cycle lead acid batteries from non premium brands rarely last more than 3-4 years, and premium brands may last 5-6 years ( for example we have an electric golf cart on the family ranch, it was bought in 2013, it was bought used with still good batteries, those were replaced in 2014, again in 2019, and are due to be replaced again, as its range is down to a fraction of new). The LiTime batteries I linked to above have a 5 year warranty and a 10+ year expected service life, to me that is money well spent, even before considering the performance advantages of LiFePo4.
Checking online my local NAPA sells 225 AH 6V GC2 standard lead acid deep cycle batteries for $221 (after core charge as you do not have old ones to turn in) and AGM 6V GC2's for $441 each (with only 12 month warranty). To get 225AH at 12V you need a pair of these, or 4 will give you 450 AH for a cost of $884 for lead acid or $1764 for AGM. A LiTime 460AH battery with 250A BMS on Amazon is currently priced at $1499 Amazon.com Though note this model does not have low temperature charging protection, so must be located where it will never attempt to charge at below 32F or use an external battery low temperature cut off device like the Victron Low temperature battery protector Amazon.com Or a pair of LiTime 230AH batteries with low temperature charging protection for $619 each ($1238 total, plus a pair of quality interconnect cables) Amazon.com
To me that puts LiFePo4 at only 35% higher price than higher than Lead Acid, and actually cheaper than AGM, with a likely MUCH longer service life and better all around performance. In my experience with RV's, golf carts, boats, etc. deep cycle lead acid batteries from non premium brands rarely last more than 3-4 years, and premium brands may last 5-6 years ( for example we have an electric golf cart on the family ranch, it was bought in 2013, it was bought used with still good batteries, those were replaced in 2014, again in 2019, and are due to be replaced again, as its range is down to a fraction of new). The LiTime batteries I linked to above have a 5 year warranty and a 10+ year expected service life, to me that is money well spent, even before considering the performance advantages of LiFePo4.
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Mark_K5LXP
Well-known member
Just to provide a data point, interstate GC2's from costco today are about $130 each including core. Maybe not "premium" batteries but in RV service "premium" won't usually buy you a lot. So a set of four at ~$520 is a fair bit below lithium at ~$1500, so the benefits of cycle life, longevity and charge/discharge performance is going to need to be critically reviewed for the application unless money is no object.
Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
Isaac-1
Well-known member
They are also only $135 at Wal-Mart, but are only 205AH not 225AH, and only have a 90 day replacement warranty, which should tell you something about the quality. At least the ones from NAPA have a 1 year warranty and are 225AH.
Mark_K5LXP
Well-known member
They're 210Ah and they're warranted at full price for 6 months in RV service, prorated after that. Mine are on their sixth season.
Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
1stimerver
Well-known member
We swapped out the original battery with two 6volt 235 AH deep cycle golf cart batteries , with a 55 amp charger/controller and get thru a boondocking weekend just fine. I would suggest you shut down the fridge at night, not going in there any more than necessary. If it makes you feel better put in a couple of bags of ice.
We don't run our absorption fridge while traveling and after a 6 hour drive the inside temp only dropped a few degrees. We started putting in a couple of large zip loc bags of ice cubes, because it makes the DW feel better. Once on site we then run the generator about 4-5 hours or so to recharge the batteries and accommodate our normal 120 V loads.
We also run our fridge on 120 V generator power when we want/need to conserve propane. Just a little more work.
The best part about about adding the ice cubes to the fridge and freezer is that we have ice available for cocktail hour when we arrive, giving our portable ice maker time to fill up.
Just my $.02
Safe travels and all the best.
We don't run our absorption fridge while traveling and after a 6 hour drive the inside temp only dropped a few degrees. We started putting in a couple of large zip loc bags of ice cubes, because it makes the DW feel better. Once on site we then run the generator about 4-5 hours or so to recharge the batteries and accommodate our normal 120 V loads.
We also run our fridge on 120 V generator power when we want/need to conserve propane. Just a little more work.
The best part about about adding the ice cubes to the fridge and freezer is that we have ice available for cocktail hour when we arrive, giving our portable ice maker time to fill up.
Just my $.02
Safe travels and all the best.
