Need New Converter/Charger

[Great Horned Owl]

I upgraded to four 6V batteries. Now, with 440 Amp-hour capacity, the little 45 Amp charger takes entirely too long to charge them. I am thinking that I should put in a 80 or 100 amp charger.

Progressive Dynamics is the brand that I see mentioned most frequently. The Powermax PM4 series are also 4 stage chargers with similar characteristics and are significantly less expensive. Does anybody know anything about them? Are there other brands worth considering? Other than Amazon or ebay, who carries a decent selection of them?

I haven't checked yet, but I suspect that I will also need to increase the size of the wires to the batteries. The charger is located under the frig, almost directly over the axles. The batteries are in the front bay. If I do need heavier wire, running it will become a tough job.

Am I overlooking anything?

Joel

 

[Just Lou]

Joel, you can always leave the current converter in place, and install an additional one closer to the batteries.  I think a PD9260 would be sufficient for a 440ah bank, if the wires are short and big enough.  Unless you let the batteries get too low, you won't ever make good use of an 80+ amp charger anyway.  It is nice to have one that you can force into BULK mode (or equalizing mode) once in a while.

I have the PD9260A and 4-6V GC-2s as well.  I also have an Inverter/charger installed that is an 80amp charger that I use when necessary.  I can easily separate the two banks of 6s and charge with separate sources when desired.

 

[joelmyer]

I went through the same thing.  I bought a Black and Decker Smart Battery VEC1093DBD

http://car-battery-charger-review.toptenreviews.com/black-and-decker-smart-battery-review.html

When dry camping I set it in front of the battery compartment and use the clips.  When not dry camping, you don't need it.  But is is occasionally very useful for cars, lawn mowers, etc.

It plays well with my PD.  My routine when dry camping is:
1. Start Generator
2. Set the VEC for wet cell and 40 amps
3. Come in and push the button on the PD charge wizard - that puts in into bulk mode

I get about 60 amps to start with, and of course that tapers down.

Joel

 

[SeilerBird]

Joel - Coincidentally I just listed my Progressive Dynamics 45 amp converter for sale. Brand new and never used. $120 plus $10 for shipping.

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=73229.msg666537#new

 

[Bob Buchanan]

    I have three 12 volt house batteries - and bought the PD 45. Considered a larger charger but that would require more current when running my Honda 2000 while dry camping. While the 2000 is running I wanted to be able to run my business and so forth at the same time. I still turn the charger off when running the microwave.

 

[Great Horned Owl]

Thanks for all of the help.

Tom, your charger is no bigger than what I have, but that sounds like a good price for somebody who can use it.

I don't think that I want to keep two chargers hooked up. I don't think that I could run them both when connected to a 15 amp line. I might try installing the new charger near the batteries and just disconnecting the 120AC from the existing one.

Joel

 

[Just Lou]

Thanks for all of the help.
I might try installing the new charger near the batteries and just disconnecting the 120AC from the existing one.
Joel

That's my normal mode of operation, as it's easier to (opt out) the PD9260 than it is to cripple the charger that is an integral part of the Inverter/charger.  The PD is always there as a backup.

 

[denmarc]

I went through the same thing.  I bought a Black and Decker Smart Battery VEC1093DBD

http://car-battery-charger-review.toptenreviews.com/black-and-decker-smart-battery-review.html

When dry camping I set it in front of the battery compartment and use the clips.  When not dry camping, you don't need it.  But is is occasionally very useful for cars, lawn mowers, etc.

Just wondered...
Bought 2 of these before Vector was bought out by B & D.  Both went bad in about a year.  How has your luck been?

 

[Just Lou]

Just wondered...
Bought 2 of these before Vector was bought out by B & D.  Both went bad in about a year.  How has your luck been?

I've had three VEC1097As go bad.  I don't know if the 1093 is a better product or not, but I'll never pay the money to find out.

 

[denmarc]

I've had three VEC1097As go bad.  I don't know if the 1093 is a better product or not, but I'll never pay the money to find out.

Gave up after two.  Not trying to thread drift.  Just sayin'

 

[Ernie n Tara]

FYI, you should have no problem running even 100A of charger even on the 2kW generator. That is still only about 1,400W of power.  At 60 to 70 A the charger will only draw about seven or eight Amps of 120V ac.

Ernie

 

[Lou Schneider]

To get the highest charging rate, you'll want to place the new converter as close to the batteries as possible, but not in the same compartment so it's not exposed to the battery vapors, and use fat cables to connect them.  Just as the voltage drop through a long cable will make an inverter drop out sooner than it should, the voltage drop while charging will make the current drop from bulk to acceptance modes sooner than it should.

Bulk charging mode is where the batteries are absorbing all of the converter's output so the amount of current the charger can supply is the limiting factor.  During bulk charging the batteries pull the charger's voltage low, so it's producing maximum current.

As the batteries gain charge the voltage rises until the converter reaches it's voltage setpoint, then the charging current starts to drop.  This is acceptance mode charging.

Losing voltage along the charging wire is the same as setting the charger to a lower output voltage.  You exit the bulk charging mode sooner and spend more time in acceptance mode.  If there's sufficient wire resistance you might never be in bulk mode at all and spend all of the charging time transferring less than the charger's rated current into the batteries.

If you're not getting a significant amount of charging time at or near the 45 amp rating of your present converter, you won't gain anything by just replacing it with a larger one.  You'll have to upgrade the existing wires or move the converter closer to the batteries to make a difference.

 

[denmarc]

You'll have to upgrade the existing wires or move the converter closer to the batteries to make a difference.

I will be replacing/upgrading my converter soon.  A few questions comes to mind...

Currently the distance between my converter and batteries is roughly 15'.  Batteries at the nose of the TT.  Factory wiring.  If I simply replace the old converter/charger with the new one in the same location, will the existing wiring sufficiently handle the additional 25A of bulk charging rate with the upgrade?  Any other issues?

I do have two spots in the interior nose of the TT where I can install the new converter.  One location will require a little wiring for 120vac, but doable and within the 36" reach of the converter power cord.  If done this way, it's the 12vdc wiring to the fuse panel I'm worried about.  Thoughts and suggestions?       

 

[Lou Schneider]

What is your present bulk charging current, and how long does bulk mode last before the charging current starts to taper off?  The problem is it's likely your existing wiring is limiting the amount of time the batteries are charging in bulk mode, not the converter.  Are you currently seeing 40-45 amps of current going to the batteries for a significant amount of time before the charge moves into acceptance mode (where the current starts tapering off)?

If you're not presently spending a large amount of time pushing high current into the batteries, installing a larger converter using your present wiring won't make much of a difference.

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm has a good voltage loss calculator following their wire chart.  Enter the length of wire, the operating voltage (12 volts) and the expected current and it will tell you how much voltage is lost along the wires.  For example, a 15 ft. run of 10 gauge wire carrying 45 amps has an 11.55% voltage drop.  If your converter puts out 13.6 volts, this means when full current is flowing, there's only 12.05 volts at the batteries.  Obviously at this voltage the only time the batteries will accept the full charging rate is when they're completely discharged, as soon as they gain any charge at all they'll need more voltage to continue charging, which means the charging rate will drop until a balance is reached between the wire loss and the battery voltage.

For best results, put the converter close to the batteries and connect it directly to them using large, short wires.  Then let the existing wires carry the converter and the battery voltage back to the fusepanel.  This is how the current flows while you're boondocking and it will work the same way when the converter is charging the batteries.

 

[denmarc]

Gotta be honest, Lou...
Never put a VOM on the batteries due to the fact I never had an issue until it went south a few years back.  Charging side took a dump.  Been wanting to change it out anyhow with a smart converter/charger.  Been using an automotive smart charger in the mean time.  Recently purchased a Power Max PM4-60 Boondocker.  The old converter is a 40A.

I'm confused about one thing.  This new unit only has one 12vdc heavy gauge output.  Depending on where I choose to mount the new unit, I am going to have to make sure sufficient gauge wire is used.  Not sure how I can run the wire if new converter is mounted as old converter vs. new converter installed close to batteries.

Did I make any sense?  ???

 

[Lou Schneider]

Sorry, my mistake.  I thought you bought a stand-alone converter like the PowerMax PM4B-60, not the combined converter and fuseboard.

Your only choice then is to mount it in the same location as your present power center, then use really fat wire to bring the current up to the batteries, 4 gauge or better.  If you move it forward, you'll have to move all of the branch wiring up to the new location, which is a lot of work. 

If you had a standalone converter, you could mount it forward then use the existing wiring to feed the 12 volt fuseboard in the old power center.

 

[denmarc]

HOLD THE BUS!  An angle I didn't think of.  Leave the existing converter in place due to the fact that all is well in the TT except the battery bank charging and mount the new converter near the batteries as I wanted?  Kind of like a "dedicated" battery charger?

I may have been thinking about this whole thing way too deep!  I do have the PowerMax PM4-60.  From what I can see, it may be used as a stand-alone charger.  Which would work just fine in the location I would prefer to mount it at.  Which would be within 3' of battery bank.  Welding cable with soldered lugs would be used.

Best option?

 

[John From Detroit]

Since you are doubling the converter capacity (Make sure you have enough battery, for most battery types 80 amps needs at the very minimum about 250 amp hours (C/20 rate) of battery,, or a pair of GC-2's with 10 amps of load (70 charging).

Question: are you replacing just to increase charge capacity? (Current converter works) if so.. I'd go with something like a Progressive Dynamics 9280... (Or see alternative below) and like an inverter, mount it near the batteries (Next compartment or nearby compartment) and use something like starter cable (4ga) to hook it up.  You can get the cables pre-made at most auto stores saves time and tribble.

Disconnect the wire from the circuit breaker that feeds the current converter,  Tape it off AND LABEL IT. .(that last is important) make sure a label is well attached.

Run a new wire from same breaker (NOTE: you may need to upgrade the breaker too but not likely at 80 amps) run a new power line to an outlet next to the new converter or directly to the converter depending on if you get the plug in or hard wired model.

Advantage...  Heaven forbid your new super-(compared to the old one) converter goes diodes up... You have a back up (Just restore original wire to breaker).

Alternative.... Instead of a converter, put in an inverter/converter with power pass through.. Now you have power to yoru TV's and perhaps some other stuff even when "off the grid" and generator off.. You may need to upgrade batteries some more though.  The rest of what I said applies by the way.. 

IN MY CASE: I have such an inverter.. I still use the original converter though cause I like that charge wizard's program better than the one in the inverter.

Also, depending on the inverter.... you might wish to upgrade from starter cable too.. Mine has not 4GA but 4/0GA (0000GA) much heavier.

 

[denmarc]

Question: are you replacing just to increase charge capacity? (Current converter works) if so.. I'd go with something like a Progressive Dynamics 9280... (Or see alternative below) and like an inverter, mount it near the batteries (Next compartment or nearby compartment) and use something like starter cable (4ga) to hook it up.  You can get the cables pre-made at most auto stores saves time and tribble.

Charging section of original converter is dead.  12vdc works fine in TT.  Been wanting to upgrade to smart charger for some time now.  Good time to do it.  I'm not doubling capacity of anything.  Just wishing to upgrade charger and in a position to install new converter/charger in a more efficient location.

 

[MT4Runner]

Run a new wire from same breaker (NOTE: you may need to upgrade the breaker too but not likely at 80 amps) run a new power line to an outlet next to the new converter or directly to the converter depending on if you get the plug in or hard wired model.

Excellent idea!
Which, (again coincidentally!) is just what I did in my camper last night.  I ran 12ga from the old convertor breaker to a new plug near the battery compartment where I'll plug in my new convertor/charger.

You can run a lot more wattage at 120V in smaller gauge cable than you can at 12V.

If your old charging section is dead, I'd disconnect and pull it out entirely.  You may need to add a jumper on your 12V fuse panel between the "filtered" (always connected to battery) side and "unfiltered" (powered through the convertor/blue wire) side.