New project in the works - adding roof air

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Alfa38User said:
Another Alfa owner I heard from had used a Bilge blower (boaters know what that is!!) in the duct and it reportedly improved the airflow considerably. However, the fans of this type I have encountered are quite noisy, at least  the one on my sailboat was, so I am not sure of going that way just yet.

Oh yeah - that brings back memories.  Did the same thing in the aft cabin of our 40' sailboat.  I had a fan at the aft cabin duct to suck/blow a little more air (the AC was under the forward cabin berth.)  Jane (a nurse) worked 11-7 and needed the noise (white noise) and the cool air to sleep during the day.

I've heard about RVs using floor ducts for heat and AC - not the best arrangement.
 
FrontrangeRVer said:
Alfa38user, the key difference in the Winnebago system and the Alfa system, is that Winnebago ducts the cold air to the ceiling and through the ceiling roof vents vs Alfa who used the floor furnace vents.  I am still surprised that Alfa chose to use the floor furnace vents for the cold air distribution considering that heat rises.

And cold doesn't!!! Yeah, I am well aware of that difference with Winni. We have a large ceiling fan that must be used while the a/c is working. The a/c return is at 6ft in the back of the trailer. The furnace feeds through a normally closed door that is supposed to block (ha!!) the cold air from backing into the furnace.
 
Tough to see an Alfo to folks that remember the hot air cold air equation, especially in FL in the summer.  I would avoid them when selling RV's.
 
Only the DC wiring is labeled. I have a chart to identify those. The AC wiring however is not labeled ... would have been nice.
 
John--  Any updates on how the new ac is keeping up with the heat? 

Also, do you think your installation would of been any different had you went with the Coleman mach 15?  I really want to go as large as possible and being that I never use the microwave, I am figuring a few extra amps will not hurt anything.

In addition, I have a max air vent over my current fantastic fan.  When I remove it to install the ac, what would be best for me to fill in the holes with?  Please advise.  thank you.
 
stardalo said:
John--  Any updates on how the new ac is keeping up with the heat?

We're currently in Colorado at lower elevations (~5,000 feet) and the temps have been in the lower 90s.  The extra 13,500 BTU now means the coach interior is in the mid 70s in the hottest part of the day.

Also, do you think your installation would of been any different had you went with the Coleman mach 15?  I really want to go as large as possible and being that I never use the microwave, I am figuring a few extra amps will not hurt anything.

My guess is it probably doesn't make much difference one way or another either talking about the additional 1,500 BTU of cooling or an extra amp or two.  I think the 13,500 BTU version is the biggest bang for the buck.

In addition, I have a max air vent over my current fantastic fan.  When I remove it to install the ac, what would be best for me to fill in the holes with?

I would probably use Dicor self leveling sealant in the holes.  It is fairly tenacious and seems to do a great job.  Epoxy would be a good choice as well if you have a fiberglass roof skin.
 
Harry B said:
Only the DC wiring is labeled. I have a chart to identify those. The AC wiring however is not labeled ... would have been nice.

Harry - I think Winnie started imprinting the AC wiring sometime after our coaches were produced.
 
Didn't know about the AC wiring labeling change. I guess I have to be more careful and precede my statements with"On my coach". Thanks for the correction John.

Still in the 90's at 5000 feet?  Nice to have that additional roof A/C then I'll bet
 
Harry B said:
Still in the 90's at 5000 feet?  Nice to have that additional roof A/C then I'll bet

:p - the plan was to be in Silverton, Ouray, Montrose, etc.,  but the DW of our RV buddies has ear trouble and hasn't been able to be above 6,000 feet without problems.  We're headed to the Cheyenne, WY area Sunday.  The roof air has been a fabulous addition - we're lovin' it almost every day.
 
Continuation of questions/considerations related to this intersting thread on roof AC.  Some folks having problems with their basement AC units have discovered 2 things:

1.  RVP no longer makes these units since demand has dropped off with Winnebago switching to roof AC with the 2011 models.
2. repair parts (especially compressors) are not kept on the shelf but manufactured only when ordered.  So, if your's breaks and you need a part from RVP, you will likely wait weeks for it.

That is getting folks (including myself) thinking more seriously about adding one roof AC as a back up in the event of failure of the basement unit.  With a DW with medical problems and two dogs, a trip with a busted AC is not going to pleasant.  Thinking can extend to the possibility of adding two roof AC units if the big box breaks, then convert the hole to a nice basement storage compartment.  However, there is the weight issue.

My contact at Winne tells me the roofs on a pre 2011 Winne is engineered for a 225 lb person and an additional 100 pounds while the coach is stationary.  So, two roof airs will add about 180 - 200 lbs (if you opt for a roof AC/Heat Pump weight goes up).  If you add the weight of many of us who have put on some weight as we age, you may be overloading the roof.

So, we pray that our basement units hold up or we can at least find replacement parts in a timely manner.
 
Gary - interesting post.  Compressors are for the most part extremely reliable; a likely failure scenario would be the blower, thermostat, freeze switches, or the control board.

On my roof is a Datastorm (~100 pounds), and now 100 pounds of AC.  I'm about 160 pounds so I'm a little overweight on the roof (and I'm a little overweight on the ground  ::). )  Since the Datastorm is installed towards the side of the roof and not on the center line, that probably changes the dynamic loading a bit in my favor.  The other factor for the Datastorm is the weight is spread out over a fairly large area due to the aluminum mounting plate, so I'm quite comfortable with my roof loading.

Having a backup AC for the coach was a strong selling point for me - I like backup systems - always wanted a backup for anything important or critical on the boat.
 
John, the DW says I am too techical and worry too much.  But, she will be the first to complain if the AC poops out.

Bryan told me that the 2011 coaches have a plate in the roof for reinforcement where the AC's reside.  Also said the R value of the new roofs are significantly higher than previous model years.

 
I installed a roof unit in the kitchen vent last weekend. Since I work for a manufacturing company and my office is located in a distribution center, I pulled the coach inside the building and lifted the AC unit with a forklift. A couple of us on the roof picked it up and placed it in position. My next challenge is electrical. I ran the wire through the AC duct back to over the One Place in the center of the coach. I thought I had the perfect spot for the hole over the cabinet behind the TV and One Place. The problem is that Winnebago didn't run the duct in a straight line from the back. It angles into the hallway. That makes the hole in the ceiling visible. In addition, since the cabinet does not go all the way to the ceiling, the wire is visible coming out through the hole. Originally, I was going to cover the hole with a blank ivory switch plate and run the wire in a groove cut into the ceiling vinyl. I have been thinking about it for a week and remembered using a vinyl seat repair kit years ago. If I can get some scrap ceiling material from Winnebago, I can get a vinyl repair kit (if they still make them) and make the hole invisible. I can also move the wire back against the wall behind the cabinet and make that not noticeable, too.

I also have another couple of challenges with the electrical supply. In order to prevent having to another run a wire from the One Place to the breaker panel under the bed, I tied the power into the engine block heater circuit. The AC installation instructions called for a 20 amp circuit and the block heater is 15 amps, but I thought it would be worth trying. After installation, I ran the AC for an entire day. As long as I didn't run the fan on high, it would not trip the breaker! I also ran it for a an hour or two on the generator to make sure nothing would get overloaded. This worked fine until I started driving. After 10 minutes of driving, the 15 amp breaker would blow. I reset it a few times and it would blow after a while. I replaced the breaker with a 20 amp one, which did not blow.

The problem then moved to the generator. When both ACs were going, the was 35 amps on one leg and 10 amps on the other. After about 10 minutes, the breaker on the generator would blow. According to the EMS, I was drawing about 47 amps. Since I have an 8000 watt generator, and 47 amps is only about 5700 watts, I thought I was well within the operating range of the generator. I have not measured the current draw from both 120 volt legs, but I am assuming that one of them is being overloaded. The generator has a 35 amp double pole breaker with a single toggle. It is logical that each pole is 35 amps (35 * 120 * 2 = 8200 watts). There is only a single toggle for both poles and it appears that one can blow without the other one shutting off. I am not sure how good a design that is. The only way to reset the blown side is to shut the breaker off (which disconnects the running side, too) and turn it back on. Based on the sounds coming from the engine, you can hear the electrical circuit unload the generator when the switch is thrown. I moved the AC circuit to the other 120 volt leg in the breaker panel, thinking that this would balance the load out, but the breaker still blew. It also screwed up the EMS which now thinks I am on a 30 amp circuit (I am hooked up to a 50 amp circuit). The voltage sensing must be connected to the block heater connection. I looks like I cannot avoid running another circuit from the breaker panel to the One Place. I also need to put an ammeter on the two legs to see what is going on.

I have a Progressive surge protector and I know that one of the 120 volt legs is used for almost all the power in the coach. When I moved the breaker to the other leg, it reports that I am using 25 amps on one leg and 15 on the other. I'll have to see what's going on.

On the positive side (no pun intended:)), when it was 105 out, the inside temperature was 75 and both ACs were cycling. The basement AC hasn't cycled off in hot weather since I took delivery of the coach. On the other side, John was right. I had forgotten how noisy a roof AC can be, but it's worth it!
 
Hi Michael - welcome to the extra AC club  8)

Sorry your electrical situation isn't copacetic.  I'm pretty certain I ran the roof and basement air on gen set, but I don't remember for how long.  Not sure if I have avoided your problems by running a separate circuit.  Also, my EMS works fine.  For a test, you could run a separate circuit (with a new breaker) from the AC to the breaker box with the wire just laying on the floor and see if that solves your problems.

If I can find the right place (we're in a campground), I'll run the genny with both ACs going to see if I trip that breaker.
 
The EMS problem is because I moved the engine block heater breaker from one leg to the other. This has happened to me before. I did that to avoid tripping the generator breaker. When I get home, I need to put an ammeter on the circuit to measure the draw. That will tell me what's going on and whether I am going to need to run another wire. It will also tell me if I am actually drawing 35 amps from each side of the generator. I am beginning to suspect the bouncing a breaker around while driving may actually lower its amp rating. The vibration may cause it to trip at a lower current.

I don't think I own a clamp on ammeter anymore so I may be adding to my tool collection. Once I measure the current, I'll report back. The cool is nice, though. My wife actually complained it was a little chilly yesterday afternoon (it was 101 out). On a related note, the latest complaint is that it is 'stuffy' in the bedroom. I have 2 ceiling vents in it. In the main part of the coach I have 8 vents. Based on the size of the room, I would have thought there would be 4 vents in the bedroom instead of 2. After removing one of the main area vents to run the wire, I don't see it as a big deal to add a vent to the bedroom. Has anyone tried it? Once the duct itself has been identified in the ceiling, the biggest challenges would be to get the vent parts and find the right size hole saw.
 
mrschwarz said:
I don't see it as a big deal to add a vent to the bedroom. Has anyone tried it? Once the duct itself has been identified in the ceiling, the biggest challenges would be to get the vent parts and find the right size hole saw.

Sounds like the extra BTUs are a big hit.  I don't think it would be a big deal to add a vent either.  I have a bunch of extras at the place, I would be glad to part with one or two of them if you can wait until we return home (about a month.)
 
So I completed the install of a coleman 13,500 btu mach 3PS today. Hardest part was snaking the wires.  from start to finish it took me and a friend 6 hours.  The extra btu's are awesome.  It blows so cold!!!  I decided to use 10 gauge wire.  I ended up muscling it up on to the roof, was not too bad, actually easier than I thought.  Very happy with my install.
 

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