New Purchase Question

[Squeak]

I?m looking to buy my first motorhome in the next 6 months or so. 

A bit of background.  My plan is to use it for the next 8-9 years as a weekend getaways ? and an occasional 1-2 week trip.  After that, I?ll probably be ready to retire and hopefully trade into something newer.  I would use it with my wife and two adult kids and I would think my adult kids would borrow it occasionally as well (after I put the fear of God into them about taking care of it).  I?m trying to keep the cost in the mid $30?s if I can.  And I definitely plan on having anything I buy inspected first.

I?m leaning towards a 13-18 year old Class A, in the 30-32ft range. The roominess is important for us in case we travel with either of our kids (and their husbands), which is why I?m leaning against a class C.  We probably won?t tow a car, but that?s just a guess on our part right now.  I?m leaning towards one of the  more reliable names ? Monaco, Newmar and Tiffin.  Which leads to my question.

Is my thought that an older more reliable brand of motorhome the right way to go for something that will last 8-9 years, or should I buy a newer, less premium brand?  Any other advice of what I else I might want to consider?  In that size, most options are gas only, but if I can find a diesel puller, should I go that route?

 

[Isaac-1]

If you are going to use it less than 2-3 weeks per year you may very well be better off renting once you consider depreciation, ongoing maintenance, insurance, storage cost, etc.

 

[Squeak]

I?m definitely planning on using it more than that.
Probably 15-20 weekends a year (assuming my kids use it once or twice each).
We?ll probably use it for a couple week long vacations too.

 

[Isaac-1]

In that case, sure it is possible for a 15+ year old coach to last another 9+ years, my coach was 14 years old with 74,000 miles on it when I bought it in 2016, and today with another 20,000+ miles on it, I have no reason to expect it not to last another 10 or more years, if properly maintained.  It is that properly maintained that is the killer though, as all sorts of parts tend to age out around the 12-15 year mark, primarily rubber parts, including all sorts of belts, hoses, suspension and steering bushings, etc.  Just this month I have spent nearly $1,000 in parts on replacement hoses.  In the search for a 13mm socket I dropped while changing out the radiator thermostat a couple of weeks ago, I found that the flex section of the brake lines leading to the ABS modulator are oozing fluid, and the oil cooler line has rubbed through the outer jacket and into the inner steel braid where it runs over a bracket.  Every year it seems to be something, and something is always on the to be fixed later list, sometime in the next couple of years I am going to need to get the creeping double pane window seals repaired, they are not bad yet, but I can see the progression, that will run another couple of thousand dollars, I keep expecting the original roof air conditioner to die as it is almost 19 years old now, that will be another thousand,  The list goes on and on, and I consider myself lucky as I have a covered storage shed for the coach, so worry less about weather issues, roof leaks, etc.

 

[SeilerBird]

I lived full time in a 32 foot class A with my cats and it was way too small for me. For four adults that size would be ridiculous. You should try renting one for a weekend and the four of you go camping. 

 

[Squeak]

I?m pretty comfortable with the size.  Most of the time and for all of our extended trips it will just be my wife and I. 

What I am really looking for is the most reliable way to go on this,  Should I go older with a more reliable brand as noted below or should I go newer with a lower end brand?  I?m not overly mechanical and had planned to budget about $250/month for repairs.

 

[Ex-Calif]

<snip>
I would use it with my wife and two adult kids and I would think my adult kids would borrow it occasionally as well (after I put the fear of God into them about taking care of it).  I?m trying to keep the cost in the mid $30?s if I can.  And I definitely plan on having anything I buy inspected first.

I?m leaning towards a 13-18 year old Class A, in the 30-32ft range. The roominess is important for us in case we travel with either of our kids (and their husbands), which is why I?m leaning against a class C.  We probably won?t tow a car, but that?s just a guess on our part right now. 
<snip>

Unless you are really "close" as a family I would suggest to blow up your paradigm.  A Class A will be difficult to find with 2 private quarters and with people on the dinette bed or sofa bed it is more like camping together than hoteling together. People also have to be more synchronized in their schedule - no naps at dinner time.

You need to have this conversation with the kids about how often they will accompany because the other trap is buying something with a guest room that no one uses.

If your adult kids do plan to participate frequently you might find more options/roominess in a TT or 5th wheel.  Of course you need a pretty good tow vehicle but a trailer is happier sitting long periods not getting used and ongoing "maintenance" will be cheaper. You also don't have to make the decision about a toad (and an RV with the capacity to tow one) because the tow vehicle is the runabout.

The offset in a trailer is slighter longer set up time but if your plan is "destination" camping and not site hopping this is a minor factor.

It would be much easier to find a trailer with two "private" berths.

 

[Squeak]

I was trying to avoid getting a truck, since we really wouldn't use it very often and don't have a 3rd parking spot at my house -- but I am also here to listen to what everyone is suggesting, so I definitely won't rule it out. 

I don't want two bedrooms, since the majority of the time it will just be my and my wife.  If the kids join us, they can sleep on the pull out couch/table/whatever else works as a secondary sleeping arrangement.  I think most of the time the kids use it, they will use it without us.

As far as 'destination' camping, my plan is to use it mostly for short weekend trips, although we'd take a week or two a year to go some things farther away.  Is a TT/5th Wheel a better option when going somewhere for a couple nights?  The reason I was leaning towards a motorhome is because I thought it would be easier to handle for short weekend trips.

 

[Oldgator73]

We fulltimed in a 37? triple slide 5th wheel. Big enough for the wife and me but another person was added it got small real fast. We now have a 17? TT we use with the grandkids. Talk about getting small fast. Something to think about with three or four people; I get up early while everyone else likes to sleep in. With dinette being used as a bed I have to outside and sit at the picnic table in the mornings. And I have to crawl over the wife to get out of bed (sometimes this leads to a better morning than I had planned). After two knee surgeries I can no longer get up into our bed. We purchased a tent that attaches inside an Easy Up. Makes a really nice 10?x10? tent. I sleep in the tent on cot. Long story short, your RV will get real small real fast when more than just you and the wife are there.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

I'm not sure that brand name is a solid indicator of "reliable", especially if you are talking about the underlying vehicle. That's because they mostly use the same chassis/engine/transmissions anyway.  Condition is usually more important in an older RV.  Remember, it is first & foremost a house and you spend more time living in it than driving. For "reliable" you want working appliances and water/electric systems, an absence of water leaks in roof and body, well-made cabinetry, etc.

For your intended use, you are probably looking at gas-engine coaches. They will be lower priced and have lower ongoing maintenance costs, so better suited for occasional use.

That said, Monaco & Newmar generally built a more solid coach, priced higher to afford better quality workmanship and interior furnishings.  IMO the Tiffin gas coaches of 13-18 years ago were not that great - Tiffins claim to fame was excellent customer service rather than outstanding quality.  I would add the Winnebago Adventurer & Itasca Suncruiser coaches to the prospective shopping list. Fleetwood Southwind and Pace Arrow as well. Those were the top-line gas models from those companies and a well-kept one should be a good choice.

You will be hard-pressed to find a coach of that era with decent sleeping accommodations for 4 adults. Bunks were rare, so you are talking about sofa beds or fold-down dinette tables for beds.  Some people bring along a tent for secondary sleeping quarters - younger folks may prefer it.

 

[Ex-Calif]

As far as 'destination' camping, my plan is to use it mostly for short weekend trips, although we'd take a week or two a year to go some things farther away.  Is a TT/5th Wheel a better option when going somewhere for a couple nights?  The reason I was leaning towards a motorhome is because I thought it would be easier to handle for short weekend trips.

Didn't mean to confuse things with the trailer idea. To me "destination" camping is a trip followed by staying put for a while as opposed to hopping site to site every few days while going cross country. IMO a Class A suits park hopping with slightly easier set up.

I agree with you regarding the Class A being easier for short weekend trips.

In terms of space issues I have my adult brother and my adult son join me at times and we have no problem "camping" for a long weekend with bodies laying all over the place. As Oldgator says I am the early riser (like 5am) - I'll leave the SO in bed, make coffee (even if the boys are there) and take it outside with my screens to do my morning comms.

I do start kicking everyone out of bed by like 7:30 at the latest cuz it's time to make breakfast - LOL...

There is nothing dumb about later acquiring a pop up trailer and take your "guest house" with you when needed... Better yet - let the kids buy the guest house - LOL.

 

[Mark_K5LXP]

Seems the recurring theme here is "reliable", which I consider an antithetical term for anything to do with an RV.  For the most part a motorhome is a crappy house built on UPS truck.  "Newer" is no greater assurance of quality or reliability either.  "Properly maintained" translates to trying to stay ahead of all the crap that's endlessly failing, meaning there will be some degree of problems no matter how new or "properly maintained" a given rig is.  To be sure, there's some rolling wrecks out there you don't want to get yourself into but I guess my point is that there aren't any clear winners or losers - there can be "good" and "bad" choices out there irrespective of make, model and year.  It will come down to floor plan and impression - if it seems right, looks right and mostly works right then that's as good a start as you'll probably get.  If you pick the thing apart you'll never find one "perfect" and likely miss out on the good side.  I went into it with the idea that I'm handy and will fix the warts as I go, which has worked out OK so far.  If you're the type that has to "take it in" for every little problem get used to the idea of the rig spending more time at the shop than the campground, and the giant sucking sound coming out of your wallet.  But if you're willing to learn (forums like these are invaluable), and are willing to try keeping ahead on the simple stuff you can do OK with whatever you get.  Consider that your all in budget is less than what many lose to depreciation their first year with a new one, so with that perspective get comfortable with the idea of "good enough" and roll with it.  You're "making memories", hopefully ones that help you forget the financial bleeding the comes with these things.  It can be a fun ride when everything works, which fortunately is most of the time.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

 

[Squeak]

You guys are awesome.  I tend to do a lot of research before I make decisions like this and this is exactly the type of input I was looking for.

Based on what I am reading, it seems like the consensus is that I'll have a lot of things that need to be fixed whether I buy a 6 year old low end or a 15 year old high end version - so I should just pick the one I like.

Are there things I should AVOID getting in the interest of trying to make things maintenance any easier?  Do Class A and C have the same problems?  Do different types of roofs, like a one piece roof, make a difference?  I do know I want slides even if they are a pain in the butt, because I want the space.

Note that I do live in Texas where the heat/sun can be a problem, but I plan on keeping it a covered when not in use.

That said, Monaco & Newmar generally built a more solid coach, priced higher to afford better quality workmanship and interior furnishings.  IMO the Tiffin gas coaches of 13-18 years ago were not that great - Tiffins claim to fame was excellent customer service rather than outstanding quality.  I would add the Winnebago Adventurer & Itasca Suncruiser coaches to the prospective shopping list. Fleetwood Southwind and Pace Arrow as well. Those were the top-line gas models from those companies and a well-kept one should be a good choice.

Perfect -- just the kind of thing I was looking for!  Making additions and deletions to my 'wish list'

You will be hard-pressed to find a coach of that era with decent sleeping accommodations for 4 adults. Bunks were rare, so you are talking about sofa beds or fold-down dinette tables for beds.  Some people bring along a tent for secondary sleeping quarters - younger folks may prefer it.

Makes sense and I will make them bring a tent.  They are young, they can rough it - as long as my wife and I are comfortable, it'll work.

Didn't mean to confuse things with the trailer idea. To me "destination" camping is a trip followed by staying put for a while as opposed to hopping site to site every few days while going cross country. IMO a Class A suits park hopping with slightly easier set up.

I agree with you regarding the Class A being easier for short weekend trips.

Thanks for the clarification -- sounds like a Class A does make more sense for what I was hoping to use it for.

Seems the recurring theme here is "reliable", which I consider an antithetical term for anything to do with an RV.  For the most part a motorhome is a crappy house built on UPS truck.  "Newer" is no greater assurance of quality or reliability either.  "Properly maintained" translates to trying to stay ahead of all the crap that's endlessly failing, meaning there will be some degree of problems no matter how new or "properly maintained" a given rig is.

That's quite the rosy picture you are painting there
However, your point is very well taken. 

If you're the type that has to "take it in" for every little problem get used to the idea of the rig spending more time at the shop than the campground, and the giant sucking sound coming out of your wallet.  But if you're willing to learn (forums like these are invaluable), and are willing to try keeping ahead on the simple stuff you can do OK with whatever you get. 

Makes perfect sense and yes, I will definitely try to fix stuff myself if I can.  I'm no McGyver, but I can read and despite what my wife says, I can follow instructions as well.  Once I make a purchase, I'll be all over the site learning exactly what type of maintenance I need to do to help postpone the big problems from happening.  But I'm also planning on more than my fair share of money getting sucked out of my wallet in repairs.

 

[Isaac-1]

You say you are not very mechanically inclined, and would like to budget $250 for repairs, I honestly don't know if this is compatible with maintaining a 15+ year old motorhome.  A lot depends on if you are lucky, and how not very mechanically inclined you are.  I do much of my own work, just not the heavy lifting stuff as I have a bad back, and average more like $300-$350 per month on maintenance expenses, not counting upgrades (ie converting the old halogen bulbs to LED's, etc).  The problem here is the occasional big ticket item, and the typical $100+ per hour RV shop repair rates.  Amortized over time tires and batteries alone are likely going to be about $350 per year.  Last year the starter went out on my Onan 4000 generator, I changed it out myself, cost was about $75, plus a couple of days worth of my free time to drop the generator to get to it, a shop would charge $800 or so for the same job.  2018 was probably a $3,500 or so year for me in major repairs, $750 when my automatic parking brake blew a hard line and left me stuck on the side of the road (thankfully only 3 miles from home), followed by about $2,000 for new front ball joints a couple of months later, as well as a few other things.


p.s. when it comes to brands, this a hard one to answer, some brands it depends on the exact model year as companies were sold, others have moved up market or down market over the years, yet others offered a broad range of models from entry level up through mid upper line products.  Tiffin for example has moved up market considerably over the last 20 years.

 

[Mark_K5LXP]

I tend to do a lot of research before I make decisions like this

Hopefully you won't contract analysis paralysis.

I'll have a lot of things that need to be fixed

There are failure-fixes and fix-up fixes.  Not that there's much distinction between the two when it comes to time, cost and effort but some fixes can be put off a bit when it's more convenient.  Replacing an inop water pump would get priority over replacing incandescent fixtures with LED's.  You want to do both at some point but I wouldn't put off a trip waiting for lights.  I use a spreadsheet as a logbook for my RV and have a running list of must-do's, want to do's and like to do's in there, and stuff gets done in the requisite order based on priorities, time and finances.

Are there things I should AVOID getting in the interest of trying to make things maintenance any easier?

As Gary alluded to, the chassis on these things share many attributes.  Much like the house side there's failure fixes and fix-up fixes to do on all of them.  Since they're all basically run at max GVWR there's always something that could be better, or needs some form of attention.  I've found "getting to" stuff in my class A fairly straightfoward contrasted to the somewhat tight quarters some class C's have, but that's a bit of a maintenance subtlety.  If you don't anticipate crawling under it at all then it's a don't care, you'll pay for it to be someone else's problem.

Do different types of roofs, like a one piece roof, make a difference?

I've watched this on the forums and I don't see one being decidedly better than another.  Some whiz about how the winnebago one piece fiberglass roofs are "better" because they don't have seams but there's enough failure modes with the fiberglass that I'm not sure it's any better, just different.  Someone who's had both might have some specific insight but I wouldn't put roof type on my make or break list of criteria.  There's literally millions of each kind out there.

I will make them bring a tent.

I keep my 2 man tent in the RV and when I suggested the grandkids could stay in it you'd think I was sending them off on army survival training.  Silly me, what kid would want to stay in a tent when you can be in this neato RV that's warm and dry and has a working TV...

the Class A being easier for short weekend trips.

That's how it's worked out for me.  Once you have the routine down the setup is quick and straightforward.  I almost prefer to dry camp because it's less messing around having to hook up the power and water (rough, I know).  Just drive/back in, hit the levelers, put out the slide, pull down the awning and you're popping a cold one.

there will be some degree of problems no matter how new or "properly maintained" a given rig is.

To put my comment in a slightly more optimistic perspective, most failures and issues aren't dire show stoppers, more aw shucks and work around it until you get home.  Example, last trip out my hot water quit.  I had an inkling I knew what the problem was and sure enough, it was a busted check valve on the water heater I was able to open up and clear with tools I had with me.  Disaster averted.  The "big stuff" like transmissions, engines, axles, brakes, slides, furnaces and such are show stoppers, but they're pretty far down the list of things that go wrong unexpectedly.

learning exactly what type of maintenance I need to do to help postpone the big problems from happening.

Much like other vehicles I've owned, doing routine maintenance is as much about discovering problems as it is preventing them.  You can pay a guy to change your oil and you'll have new oil, but if you crawl under there to change the oil you may notice a missing bushing, a joint that needs grease, chafing wire or hose, or any number of latent failures.  So I like to "putz" with things, checking things out and messing with stuff that may not need messing with but maybe I want to know more about.  Early in life I learned no one cares more about my cars than I do, and chances are you know more about what you have than the guy you're paying to fix it.  So I always jump in both feet first with the idea I'm no dumber than the guy at a shop, and I figure it out.  Once you get past the thought that "I've never done it before" then nearly everything is possible.  You can buy a lot of tools, and do a lot of things twice for what a shop charges so full steam ahead.  I would rather bugger something up and know what I'm in for rather than wonder if the shop guy put the right stuff in, torqued the bolts right, or whatever. 

The only issue I see with your quest is with the covid thing going on it would seem used RV's have shifted to a seller's market.  Prolly still some deals out there but you'll have to look a bit harder, longer and further to find that gem in the rough.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

 

[Ex-Calif]

The house systems to me are just a collection of systems plugged into a couple of common power sources. When a system (e.g. Fridge) goes bad the choice is replace with a new system that fits or patch it up. There are pros cons and cost vs. benefits to each choice. These will constantly be failing.

Chassis - There are pretty common and "populous" chassis out there from the Chev P30 class A to the E350 van so in theory picking a popular underlying chassis improves the odds that someone can work on it and that there will still be parts around if it is an older RV.

The killers to me are engine, transmission and water damage in terms of long term cost.

Water damage is a disqualifying finding no matter if it has been repaired. This ties into your roof question - There are probably "more reliable" roofs but no many of them are gonna survive smacking into a tree - so put top corner impact damage on the list of disqualifies for me.

Engine - Brand and number of them out there is the big factor for me. The Chev 454 is all over the place used in all kinds of vehicles. It's long term reliability is known and how to maintain it is also known. So I did not sweat the fact that a 60k mile 1996 454 that started fine, blew no smoke, made power, shifted properly, had "non-burned smelling" fluids and had no weird noises was a slightly unknown commodity - a low risk bet.

Transmissions - Same as engines.

Selection - I honestly fell into my RV by accident. It was so cheap and the problems with it were not beyond my capability so I simply closed my eyes and pulled the trigger. I got really lucky, I think. At worst I would have had to find an RV grave yard and tow it there.

If you narrow the model, make and year the selection goes way down. Also as has been said over and over around here after an RV is not disqualified by the above it's about layout, layout, layout.

Given 2 RVs I would not pick the "better brand" over the right layout.

 

[Kevin Means]

Welcome to the RVForum Squeak. I don't think you'll have much trouble finding a Class A in the price range, age and size to suit your needs. There's a good chance it'll have a Ford chassis with a V-10, which has proven to be a very reliable RV engine.

We had a 1999 Tiffin Allegro for 12 years. (I think the model # was 32M) It had the V-10 and we never had any trouble with it, or the transmission. The House was equally as trouble free, but I did maintain it properly. It had a single slide (we wished it would have had two) and we bought it for exactly the type of use you described - vacations, getaways and family stuff.

When shopping for used RVs, pay close attention to how well they were maintained. Condition is everything. Brand is less important than condition when you're considering 15 year old motorhomes. If you aren't an experienced RVer, I strongly recommend that you hire a professional inspector to look it over before you buy. It's money well spent IMO.

Kev

 

[Isaac-1]

To follow the theme of the recent posts:

Engine / Chassis options, based on the fact you want to have slides in a gas powered coach:
Either buy a Workhorse chassis coach on the W series chassis built after about 2001, or a Ford F53 preferably built after 2005, as 2005 was a major chassis redesign year for the F53, which has only had incremental improvements since then until this year.  I have a Workhorse P32 chassis coach with no slides, which works fine for me, though you will see lots of complaints about the P32, my take on it is around  1999-2001 companies were starting to put slides on gas coaches, and the P32 chassis just was not up to carrying the extra weight.  To put it another way don't buy a P32 chassis coach that is over 17,000 -18,000 GVWR with a length of over 30 ft, note the only difference on the 17,000 and 18,000 GVWR P32 is the rear axle, you will often be weight limited by the front axle on either one.   

Also be aware there was another rare Workhorse P series chassis built around 1998-99 (P46?) with a higher GVWR, the problem with it is they only built a few hundred of them, and many of the front suspension components are no longer available.  Conceptually it is a lot like the W20 /W22, just the components don't interchange.

As to engines I personally feel the 8.1L Vortec built from 01-08 on the Workhorse chassis is superior to the 7.4L Vortec used on the 96-01 P series chassis Chevy / Workhorse coaches with higher horse power, and longer design service life.  Having said that 7.4L Vortec parts are slightly easier to find as more of them were built and put into more types of vehicles.

On the Ford side the 6.8L V10 was introduced in 1999, and continued in production until this year in some applications.  The early 6.8L V10 is notorious for blowing spark plugs out of the block, which can cost $1,000+ to repair, otherwise it seems to be a fair engine. 

As to roofs, I feel Aluminum and Fiberglass are both superior to all the options in membrane roofs (EPDM, TPO, etc.)  though all types need proper maintenance, mostly in the caulking lap sealant around the vents, end caps, etc.  If I were to put them in a worst to best list it would be EPDM, TPO, (other high tech membranes), Filon Fiberglass, solid Fiberglass, thin, and then thick Aluminum.  With 1 part versions of each being better than 2 part.  My coach has a 2 part Aluminum roof, and is starting to show some thinning of the paint in places, and will probably need to be repainted within the next 3-4 years.  By contrast other roofs will generally need to be re-coated every 4-8 years.  For a while Winnebago used a fiberglass roof that was notorious for separating and blowing off if the edge sealant was not properly maintained, but again that is a maintenance issue.  The problem with RV roofs is mainly they are out of sight, out of mind, and people fail to maintain them.