darsben
Well-known member
As a 70 year old perpetual beginner I. had trouble understanding your concepts they are over my head and not very basic IMO.
Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
- Thread starter SeilerBird
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an RV or an interest in RVing!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Pugapooh
Well-known member
Wow. Joined up just to shoot somebody down.
If it were a safety issue,that would be okay but an artistic pursuit? Just,wow.
If it were a safety issue,that would be okay but an artistic pursuit? Just,wow.
OP
OP
SeilerBird
Well-known member
Harrington is a "professional" photographer who thinks he is better than everyone else because he has read a few books and took a few courses. He does not comprehend that there is a large difference between a "professional" and a beginner. I wrote these tips out for beginners who are having trouble getting good images. It is not a complete course for a "professional" photographer. I am not going to go over his points one by one since it is not worth the effort. I am right and he is wrong.
Larry N.
Well-known member
I'd suggest that, in spite of your comment that you understand it's for beginners, you seem to not quite understand the needs of beginners. As for what separates "the Pro's from the Joes" the beginners are the Joes. And many (most?) beginners won't even understand a lot of what you are talking about.harrington63 said:@SellerBird - Your post on Photography Tips For Beginners motivated me to join this group; well that and I occasionally look for answers to my rv questions... Anyway I wish I could say in a positive way, but unfortunately I have to disagree with many of your initial "tips."
...
I appreciate and understand that you are offering your tips and pointers to new photographers and you make a few valid points but I'm obliged to comment on those areas that are patently incorrect. There is an expression - Lighting and Pose separate the Pro's from the Joes...
I've attached a couple of random images for credibility
The whole idea is to help beginners be able to take some pictures with some simple "rules," rules that often are "broken" by more advanced (and pro) photographers, NOT to set them on the road to being professional photographers with all the complexities that would entail.
The bottom line is that, for rank beginners, Tom's tips work just fine. Those that want more than improved snapshots can then have a starting place to learn, without needing an advanced degree.
harrington63
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2019
- Posts
- 5
@CamperAl
The Horsehead Nebula image is a single 5 minute exposure using a cooled camera for deep sky photography. Usually I stack a group of images but in this case was just trying a longer exposure. It takes a lot of equipment to do deep sky astrophotography and generally the cost is prohibitive unless you are really into it. My equipment is: C11 Edge HD scope, Hyperstar 3, ZWO 1600MC Pro, Orion ST80 with QHY5L-II for guiding and a CEM120 mount. I use PHD guiding to control the micro-movements of the scope and Nebulosity 4 for image capture. Processing is a combination of Nebulosity 4 and Photoshop. I'm just beginning to learn this skill; it can be very challenging as you must understand telescopes, photography and computers not to mention things like arc-seconds, pixel scale etc. But it is very rewarding
The Horsehead Nebula image is a single 5 minute exposure using a cooled camera for deep sky photography. Usually I stack a group of images but in this case was just trying a longer exposure. It takes a lot of equipment to do deep sky astrophotography and generally the cost is prohibitive unless you are really into it. My equipment is: C11 Edge HD scope, Hyperstar 3, ZWO 1600MC Pro, Orion ST80 with QHY5L-II for guiding and a CEM120 mount. I use PHD guiding to control the micro-movements of the scope and Nebulosity 4 for image capture. Processing is a combination of Nebulosity 4 and Photoshop. I'm just beginning to learn this skill; it can be very challenging as you must understand telescopes, photography and computers not to mention things like arc-seconds, pixel scale etc. But it is very rewarding
harrington63
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2019
- Posts
- 5
This afternoon I received a private message from a concerned member:
"Hi
After your first ever two posts on our forum, I hinted to the fact that Seilerbird gave tips to amateurs and you blasted him about that he was wrong in almost anything because you were a "professional" photographer and could up him big time. Others came on and voiced their concerns too. Than ignoring all the other comments you just answered someone about one of your photographs and tried to "Impress" everybody with your million dollar equipment.
Please be a gentleman and offer some polite excuses, that gets you further once you need help from RV experts about the knowledge you don't have.
I did not want to post this on our forum (yet) to give you a chance to correct your unprofessional behavior. Kindness goes a long way my friend."
In response, let me say that I am not a "Professional" I am a professional, I have the licensure, insurance, equipment, training and client base to support that, all it takes is a little checking. Next let me address the assumption that I "blasted" the OP. I make my living from my equipment, during which I am forced to compete with people who are able to take semi-pro quality images yet have little training or training received via the internet, some is very good and some very wrong. Here some of the information is not right. This becomes an issue because someone with poor skills devalues the market and the effort I put into my business. Basic get it done advice may help a total beginner get an image with a point and shoot camera that is slightly better than a phone image, but it won't improve their long-term photographic skill. A solid foundation of knowledge is fundamental to understanding photography. Further I did not just jump in and refute each claim to "up him big time", in fact I browsed the forum and found that there were many things being promoted that are not correct. For example, no need for "professional lenses" While most do not need a pro lens, there are many reasons why you may choose to shoot with one, not the least of which is sharpness. The furthering discussion centered around sharpness of the image and frankly the OP's images are soft and lack contrast while otherwise the images are good. A "pro" lens will without question offer a sharper and higher contrast image. Wouldn't it be better if the OP had not set himself up so that his opinion is the only one that matters and let the reader determine for himself what he needed? In fact, this is the whole point of why I was motivated to comment - When you set yourself up as the expert and are going to advise others, make sure you are correct and give the reader the tools to do it on their own, not just "He's wrong, I'm right" approach... Next issue, Not answering the other commenters concerns. They did not specifically add anything to the conversation that would not devolve into a further pointless conversation, had someone asked a question or addressed me in a way that my response would have resolved an issue I would happily have replied, as I am here. To offer some polite excuse is fake, condescending and quite frankly a total repudiation of my belief system, as it should be anyone's. I like to know that should I receive an apology it is sincere and not contrived. Now the final issue, which I find extremely biased and unfair, (showing that we are all guilty of either mis-communication or intent) someone asked what equipment I used to take an image of the Horsehead Nebula. I answered their question - what am I supposed to do, lie about the equipment needed to capture that image? Let the person believe that if they point their camera at the sky they too can take an image that isn't visible with the naked eye, even using a high-powered telescope? I don't apologize for being informative. I don't apologize if the equipment I use cost more than a discount mart's offering, again, to get quality results requires quality equipment. So to put this issue to rest, I am not specifically calling out anyone to "one up them, or "impress them with my million dollar equipment" I am trying to offer an alternative viewpoint based on proven fact and experience. Again, when you set yourself up as the most knowledgeable King of the Hill, you better have the facts on your side. Now having said that, if you simply want to take a picture some of the tips may help, if you want to learn how to advance as a photographer some of the tips will trip you up. I'm happy to address any issues any of you may have.
"Hi
After your first ever two posts on our forum, I hinted to the fact that Seilerbird gave tips to amateurs and you blasted him about that he was wrong in almost anything because you were a "professional" photographer and could up him big time. Others came on and voiced their concerns too. Than ignoring all the other comments you just answered someone about one of your photographs and tried to "Impress" everybody with your million dollar equipment.
Please be a gentleman and offer some polite excuses, that gets you further once you need help from RV experts about the knowledge you don't have.
I did not want to post this on our forum (yet) to give you a chance to correct your unprofessional behavior. Kindness goes a long way my friend."
In response, let me say that I am not a "Professional" I am a professional, I have the licensure, insurance, equipment, training and client base to support that, all it takes is a little checking. Next let me address the assumption that I "blasted" the OP. I make my living from my equipment, during which I am forced to compete with people who are able to take semi-pro quality images yet have little training or training received via the internet, some is very good and some very wrong. Here some of the information is not right. This becomes an issue because someone with poor skills devalues the market and the effort I put into my business. Basic get it done advice may help a total beginner get an image with a point and shoot camera that is slightly better than a phone image, but it won't improve their long-term photographic skill. A solid foundation of knowledge is fundamental to understanding photography. Further I did not just jump in and refute each claim to "up him big time", in fact I browsed the forum and found that there were many things being promoted that are not correct. For example, no need for "professional lenses" While most do not need a pro lens, there are many reasons why you may choose to shoot with one, not the least of which is sharpness. The furthering discussion centered around sharpness of the image and frankly the OP's images are soft and lack contrast while otherwise the images are good. A "pro" lens will without question offer a sharper and higher contrast image. Wouldn't it be better if the OP had not set himself up so that his opinion is the only one that matters and let the reader determine for himself what he needed? In fact, this is the whole point of why I was motivated to comment - When you set yourself up as the expert and are going to advise others, make sure you are correct and give the reader the tools to do it on their own, not just "He's wrong, I'm right" approach... Next issue, Not answering the other commenters concerns. They did not specifically add anything to the conversation that would not devolve into a further pointless conversation, had someone asked a question or addressed me in a way that my response would have resolved an issue I would happily have replied, as I am here. To offer some polite excuse is fake, condescending and quite frankly a total repudiation of my belief system, as it should be anyone's. I like to know that should I receive an apology it is sincere and not contrived. Now the final issue, which I find extremely biased and unfair, (showing that we are all guilty of either mis-communication or intent) someone asked what equipment I used to take an image of the Horsehead Nebula. I answered their question - what am I supposed to do, lie about the equipment needed to capture that image? Let the person believe that if they point their camera at the sky they too can take an image that isn't visible with the naked eye, even using a high-powered telescope? I don't apologize for being informative. I don't apologize if the equipment I use cost more than a discount mart's offering, again, to get quality results requires quality equipment. So to put this issue to rest, I am not specifically calling out anyone to "one up them, or "impress them with my million dollar equipment" I am trying to offer an alternative viewpoint based on proven fact and experience. Again, when you set yourself up as the most knowledgeable King of the Hill, you better have the facts on your side. Now having said that, if you simply want to take a picture some of the tips may help, if you want to learn how to advance as a photographer some of the tips will trip you up. I'm happy to address any issues any of you may have.
HueyPilotVN
Well-known member
Wow,
I am not going to put this in a Private Message as the other Forum member did as that did not seem to work as a friendly suggestion.
This Forum has the distinction of being known as "The friendliest place on the Internet" and it is mostly well deserved.
We have a term that we use to describe our relationships. "Framily". a conjunction of the terms Friends and Family.
It describes the mostly congenial and socially comfortable relationships that are usually the norm here.
As part of this Framily I and others will come to the defense of Tom. It is much more important for us to do that than to judge the merits of an advanced desertation of the fine points of photography.
We are a very welcoming group and I would suggest that you check your ego and just chill out with us.
Edit: I was going to say, "If you mess with Grandpa, you get the whole trailer park after you". LOL
I am not going to put this in a Private Message as the other Forum member did as that did not seem to work as a friendly suggestion.
This Forum has the distinction of being known as "The friendliest place on the Internet" and it is mostly well deserved.
We have a term that we use to describe our relationships. "Framily". a conjunction of the terms Friends and Family.
It describes the mostly congenial and socially comfortable relationships that are usually the norm here.
As part of this Framily I and others will come to the defense of Tom. It is much more important for us to do that than to judge the merits of an advanced desertation of the fine points of photography.
We are a very welcoming group and I would suggest that you check your ego and just chill out with us.
Edit: I was going to say, "If you mess with Grandpa, you get the whole trailer park after you". LOL
Tom and Margi
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2005
- Posts
- 3,337
I completely agree with Bill Waugh, Larry N. and others who spoke in Seilor's defense. This IS the friendliest forum on the internet. Offering scathing criticism to someone who is just trying to offer help to beginners is a very poor way to foster friendliness in a group.
Here's a positive suggestion for you, harrington63. If you truly want people to read your long message, it would be helpful if you would break it up a little. Long texts with no white space are very difficult to read on a computer monitor. Many people, myself included, will just pass them by unread. Margi
Here's a positive suggestion for you, harrington63. If you truly want people to read your long message, it would be helpful if you would break it up a little. Long texts with no white space are very difficult to read on a computer monitor. Many people, myself included, will just pass them by unread. Margi
Tom
Administrator
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2005
- Posts
- 51,932
OK folks, let's calm down and avoid the "piling-on". We all know that TomS is more than capable of defending himself, and will occasionally offer his own "you're wrong" comments.
I'm very much a self-described point-and-shoot Joe, although I try to learn from everyone offering help and suggestions, both experienced amateurs and pros. However, my head is sometimes (too often) left spinning when folks get into technical disagreements on photography; Unfortunately, I pick up my camera so infrequently, that I usually forget what I've read/learned.
FWIW my Dad was a semi-pro photographer and one of my adult grandsons has his own successful photography business; I keep telling him that the photography gene passed me by :-[
I have a couple of acquaintances who are avid amateur "astro-photographers", and I'm continually blown away by both their equipment and the techniques they employ to get good results from a "blank sky"; One of these guys has even conducted a basic hands-on class, which gave me an appreciation of some of the specialized equipment and techniques. I learned enough to know that this is not a branch of photography in which I'd excel or that I'd even enjoy (I'd be too frustrated).
I'm very much a self-described point-and-shoot Joe, although I try to learn from everyone offering help and suggestions, both experienced amateurs and pros. However, my head is sometimes (too often) left spinning when folks get into technical disagreements on photography; Unfortunately, I pick up my camera so infrequently, that I usually forget what I've read/learned.
FWIW my Dad was a semi-pro photographer and one of my adult grandsons has his own successful photography business; I keep telling him that the photography gene passed me by :-[
I have a couple of acquaintances who are avid amateur "astro-photographers", and I'm continually blown away by both their equipment and the techniques they employ to get good results from a "blank sky"; One of these guys has even conducted a basic hands-on class, which gave me an appreciation of some of the specialized equipment and techniques. I learned enough to know that this is not a branch of photography in which I'd excel or that I'd even enjoy (I'd be too frustrated).
Pugapooh
Well-known member
The private message you got was excellent advice. In the future,you would do well to explain what works for YOU without criticizing someone else's methods. Again,this was not a risk to anyone's health,safety or equipment.
If you don't use paragraphs,nobody can or will read your response. I didn't.
This forum is about RVing. You have certainly picked a strange place to have a battle over photography. I can only wonder why you want to alienate yourself right from the start.
Now,did you have any RV related topics?
If you don't use paragraphs,nobody can or will read your response. I didn't.
This forum is about RVing. You have certainly picked a strange place to have a battle over photography. I can only wonder why you want to alienate yourself right from the start.
Now,did you have any RV related topics?
harrington63
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2019
- Posts
- 5
I have no RV related questions.
Tom and Margi
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2005
- Posts
- 3,337
:
darsben
Well-known member
Everyone please remember the saying.
Everyone that comes brightens our day. Some when they come and .........
Everyone that comes brightens our day. Some when they come and .........
MN Blue Skies
Site Team
Hi Tom J, how to I find the split for DSLR photography from cell phone and point and shoot photography. Thanks.
MN Blue Skies
Site Team
Pugapooh said:
Pugapooh please clarify, are you saying that a discussion about photography doesn't belong on this forum? If so, then why have the admins included it as a topic?
Tom
Administrator
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2005
- Posts
- 51,932
[quote author=MN Blue Skies]Hi Tom J, how to I find the split for DSLR photography from cell phone and point and shoot photography.[/quote]
??? Not sure what you mean. We only have one board for photography & imaging.
??? Not sure what you mean. We only have one board for photography & imaging.
Pugapooh
Well-known member
MN Blue Skies said:
Their forum,their choices. I was trying to establish if our new photographer had any interest in RV questions . Sorry for the confusion.
Pugapooh
Well-known member
Crap,that sounds snarky. I mean to say, if you run a forum,you run it how you want.
SeilerBird said:
Just have a comment about point 9.
These days smartphones are heavily equipped with advanced technologies in cameras and the camera software features. By experimenting with the new features you will surely learn a lot of new things about different settings on the camera.
