Questions about propane refill at a truck stop

[FunSteak]

I fill our rig at a local equipment/party rental place. Best price around, charged by the gallon. Not many RVs around here use them, so I've never had to wait in line.

 

[CharlesinGA]

With reference to DOT cylinders for Propane, this DOT flyer is pretty clear on what is expected to be done and how. Requalification Guidance for Propane Cylinders (this is a one page PDF that downloads from the US DOT Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration.)

Hard mounted tanks on RV's and at your home, etc, are ASME tanks and do not fall under DOT regulations for inspections.

Charles

 

[CharlesinGA]

Blue Rhino clearly marks the amount of propane contained in our tanks, right on the package. Blue Rhino also notes the amount of propane contained in our tanks on our display signs.

The reason for the labeling and signage by Blue Rhino (and probably AmeriGas also) is due to a Class action lawsuit......................​

Charles

AmeriGas, Blue Rhino Accused of Selling Underfilled Propane Tanks in Class Actions​

In addition to AmeriGas and Blue Rhino, indirect purchasers had filed a complaint against the retailers—including Lowes and Walmart—who sold them the propane tanks in 2008.


A Class of direct purchasers—such as auto repair shops and home improvement stores—had previously reached a $12.6 million settlement agreement with AmeriGas and Blue Rhino in 2019.

In recent years, AmeriGas paid $6.5 million to end a class action lawsuit alleging the company colluded with Blue Rhino to lower the amount of propane in their pre-filled propane tanks from 17 pounds to 15 pounds without also reducing the price.
The AmeriGas, Blue Rhino Underfilled Tanks MDL is In re: Pre-Filled Propane Tank Antitrust Litigation, Case No. 4:14-md-02567, in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Missouri.

 

[Lou Schneider]

With reference to DOT cylinders for Propane, this DOT flyer is pretty clear on what is expected to be done and how. Requalification Guidance for Propane Cylinders (this is a one page PDF that downloads from the US DOT Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration.)

Hard mounted tanks on RV's and at your home, etc, are ASME tanks and do not fall under DOT regulations for inspections.

Charles

An issue with getting a tank re-certified is the re-certification label is sometimes made out of thin foil that the certifier uses a pen to write/engrave the re-certification date on, not stamped into the tank itself. The price is reasonable enough ($20 at our local supplier) but the foil label rarely remains legible for more than a few months and can lead to questions about whether the tanks are current when re-filling the tank.

 

[CharlesinGA]

An issue with getting a tank re-certified is the re-certification label is sometimes made out of thin foil that the certifier uses a pen to write/engrave the re-certification date on, not stamped into the tank itself. The price is reasonable enough ($20 at our local supplier) but the foil label rarely remains legible for more than a few months and can lead to questions about whether the tanks are current when re-filling the tank.

I agree 100% with this. One would do well to have a re-certified tanks cylinder(s) paperwork with you, possibly photos of the label immediately after it was applied, and consider a thick layer of a clear epoxy over it to help preserve it. I have seen tanks with these stickers and always thought that was a crappy way of doing it.

And note that external visual inspections are only valid for 5 years, after the initial 10 year life has run out. Other forms of testing are generally not economically feasible, and a new cylinder might be the order of the day. (original, antique, Airstream cylinders might be an exception to this)

Charles

 

[Ray-IN]

Blue Rhino uses delivery trucks that are designed like the older soft drink trucks with the slightly sloped sides with the roll up slatted doors with shelves inside that hold the cylinders (they are not tanks). The story goes that to limit the weight of the truck, they started filling the tanks to 15 lbs each. In any case, you are not getting a full tank from them. I have 30 lb tanks so I have to refill. If I had 20 lb tanks I'd buy the Flame King YSN230b 20 Pound Steel Propane Tank Cylinder with OPD Valve and Built-in Gauge, 20 lb Vertical. Costco usually has stacks of them even cheaper than Amazon. The gauge is magnetic, operated by the OPD float and while not perfect, its pretty darn good. As it is, with the 30 lb cylinders and the difficulty in removing them, I use the Mopeka Tank Check system to track the level.

I have been using Tractor Supply as they have a good price and usually will come right out and fill my cylinders. When cylinders are refilled they are supposed to be placed on a scale to verify the amount but most people do not pay attention to the scale, they fill until liquid comes out the vent screw, which is about the time the OPD shuts it off anyhow.

The time interval for DOT cylinder inspection is now 10 years. Its a somewhat convoluted story. DOT took it upon itself to issue a rule change, known as a NPRM (Notice of Proposed Rulemaking) to move the time interval for inspections from 12 years to 10. There were few comments and the NPRM was approved as written and became Federal Code. Apparently the watchdog organizations that should have caught this did not and the industry cried foul and so the DOT issued "do not enforce" letters to their field inspectors and filed a new NPRM to move the time interval back to 12 years. Again, few comments were received, mostly advocating the 10 year interval, so the NPRM failed and the 10 year interval stayed in place. The "do not enforce" letter became void after this. This was about 2017 or 2018. There is a lot of stuff on the internet that still says 12 years but it is incorrect.

Charles

Please post a link to that information-with dates; about reverting to 10 years. I've argued with some guys but cannot prove what I say.
The link you posted is undated.
This is a quote from the Federal Register link embedded in your previous link.
Quote: " (ii) For a cylinder having a water capacity over 5.44 kg (12 pounds), by the water-jacket, direct expansion or proof pressure test methods as prescribed in CGA C–1. For the water-jacket or direct expansion test, the re-qualification must be performed by the end of 12 years after the original test date and at 12-year intervals thereafter. For the proof-pressure test, a re-qualification must be performed by the end of 12 years after the original test date and at seven (7) year intervals."

 

[CharlesinGA]

Please post a link to that information-with dates; about reverting to 10 years. I've argued with some guys but cannot prove what I say.
The link you posted is undated.
This is a quote from the Federal Register link embedded in your previous link.
Quote: " (ii) For a cylinder having a water capacity over 5.44 kg (12 pounds), by the water-jacket, direct expansion or proof pressure test methods as prescribed in CGA C–1. For the water-jacket or direct expansion test, the re-qualification must be performed by the end of 12 years after the original test date and at 12-year intervals thereafter. For the proof-pressure test, a re-qualification must be performed by the end of 12 years after the original test date and at seven (7) year intervals."

You are quoting....
(j) Cylinder used as a fire extinguisher...... snip....

(1) A DOT 4B, 4BA, 4B240ET or 4BW cylinder used as a fire extinguisher may be tested as follows:​

(ii) For a cylinder having a water capacity over 5.44 kg (12 pounds), by the water-jacket, direct expansion or proof pressure test methods as prescribed in CGA C–1... snip.....​

​

So, that doesn't apply. I did notice that the flyer I linked to did not have a date, which I thought odd. I see what I need to quote, but I'll get it together tomorrow.

For the sake of discussion, I suspect that testing a cylinder by the volumetric expansion or proof pressure methods is probably as expensive or more so than a new 20 or 30 lb cylinder costs. As I said, I will work on that tomorrow.

Tonight is the peak of the Lenoids meteor shower and our weather is clear with a slight haze so I plan to spend an hour or so outside in a lounge chair watching, as the temps are comfortable (59°F).

Charles

 

[gwinger]

If I get an out of date tank, I then use one of the companies that swap tanks, let them get it re-certified.

Just make sure the tank you receive is not close to the expiration date so you can continue to get it refilled. Most of those exchange tanks are only filled with 15 lbs. of propane so you are getting short changed when you buy them.
My local propane distributor will re-certify a tank.
The cost a new tank is around $50-$60. About $5/yr.

 

[Ray-IN]

You are quoting....
(j) Cylinder used as a fire extinguisher...... snip....

(1) A DOT 4B, 4BA, 4B240ET or 4BW cylinder used as a fire extinguisher may be tested as follows:​

(ii) For a cylinder having a water capacity over 5.44 kg (12 pounds), by the water-jacket, direct expansion or proof pressure test methods as prescribed in CGA C–1... snip.....​

​

So, that doesn't apply. I did notice that the flyer I linked to did not have a date, which I thought odd. I see what I need to quote, but I'll get it together tomorrow.

For the sake of discussion, I suspect that testing a cylinder by the volumetric expansion or proof pressure methods is probably as expensive or more so than a new 20 or 30 lb cylinder costs. As I said, I will work on that tomorrow.

Tonight is the peak of the Lenoids meteor shower and our weather is clear with a slight haze so I plan to spend an hour or so outside in a lounge chair watching, as the temps are comfortable (59°F).

Charles

Thanks Charles, I posted that because the Federal Register legal language put me in a tail-spin.

 

[CharlesinGA]

I was working on something, but it became long and convoluted. What it comes down to is
Title 49
Subtitle B
Chapter I
Subchapter C
Part 180
Subpart C
§ 180.209

Paragraph 180.209

Calls for either a volumetric expansion (hydrostatic) test or a proof pressure test at the required intervals, however, for cylinders with specifications 3A, 3AA, 4B, 4BA, 4BW, 4B-240ET, and 4E which are the ones that LPG cylinders are made to, a visual inspection is allowed in place of the "hydrostatic test". The visual inspection is allowed under paragraph (g)

(g) Visual inspections. A cylinder conforming to a specification listed in the table in this paragraph (g) and used exclusively in the service indicated may, instead of a periodic hydrostatic test, be given a complete external visual inspection at the time periodic requalification becomes due. External visual inspection must be in conformance with CGA C–6 or C–6.3, as applicable. When this inspection is used instead of hydrostatic testing, subsequent inspections are required at five-year intervals after the first inspection.

The first hydrostatic test is required (see table 1 in the regulation) at either 5, 7, 10, or 12 years depending on the use (tanks made to these specs can be used for other purposes).

The volumetric test (hydrostatic) or proof pressure require special calibrated equipment, protective barriers in the event of cylinder failure, and removal of the OPD valve assembly and drying of the interior of the cylinder when done. This test would be expensive enough to make the decision to scrap and replace the cylinder an easy one. The visual inspection provides a simple out for this dilemma.

The deeper I get, the more confused it becomes, however it is apparent that after the initial inspection (10 or 12 years) that following VISUAL inspections are at 5 years. That much is clear.

Also, to answer something Lou brought up, para 180.213(c) allows the use of clear epoxy over the stickers to preserve them.

The Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) that made these most recent changes is found HERE. Knock yourself out, you will spend all day and night reading it, but it is a good education in how the rulemaking system works. I am familiar with this from the aviation business, as it is the same process.

Charles

 

[Believer45]

Local propane supplier near me will do a visual (5 year) recertification free if you buy propane, $7 per tank if you do not. I had my two 30# tanks topped off (5 1/2 gal) and visually inspected/certified for a total cost of $23 and change. I am good for 5 more years.

 

[Adventurous Traveler]

I believe CharlesinGa is incorrect in saying Blue Rhineo reduced the 20# cylinders to 15# to save weight in the delivery trucks.

Back in the early 2000's, I believe when there was a huge rise in petroleum prices the cost of propane shot up on a continuing basis for some time. Blue Rhineo and other exchange propane suppliers knew they could only charge so much for their products. So, they started putting less propane in the tanks to offset the price increases they were experiencing at the wholesale level. I believe this is what led to the class action lawsuit against them because they never told the public you were getting less than you thought and paid for.

 

[NY_Dutch]

My local LP refiller visually recertifies for free if you're a regular customer. After he puts the new label on, he covers it a with piece of clear Gorilla tape. I have cylinders due for recertifying again, and the old labels are still perfectly readable.

 

[Trivet]

"worth it" being a subjective matter of course. I'm more than willing to pay a premium to avoid having to go through the dis/re connect process to top off propane.

They built a new TS across the road from the old one near our home. This new TS is about the only one we've found that has a convenient propane tank that you can pull right up to-- without having to disconnect. Most all of the TS sites we encounter when traveling aren't nearly as convenient.

I scoped out the Loves I mentioned in Cumberland, Maryland, using satellite images, and the propane tank is right near the entrance to the auto section. It's on the left, where the propane tank on my moho is, but if I pull up to where it can be filled, I'd be blocking a lot of the right side of the entrance, where the cars exiting need to be.

It was going to be only a little easier than Tractor Supply in Hagerstown because I might not have to unhook at Loves if I'm willing to be in people's way, and only a little more expensive. So I did stop there and parked in the truck area to look it over, and it turned out the propane was not the $3.49 price on the Loves website, but $3.99. So it was going to be 70 cents a gallon more than TS, and I was getting about 20 gallons. Not a dealbreaker, but I did not like the access one bit.

So we went on to Hagerstown, where the Tractor Supply shares a big lot with other businesses, and there are eating places all around, so we planned to just unhook the car and get something to eat (driving because it was raining, a lot). In the car, we drove by the gated area next to the store and it looked pretty typical.

We went to lunch and then I went into the TS to tell them we wanted propane for a motorhome, and she called the guy and as I walked out of the store I noticed that the propane tank was in the parking lot. Huh? I had looked at satellite images and street view, which goes through the parking lot, and in street view there was no propane tank in the parking lot.

Later I looked at all the images again and the satellite view DOES show the propane tank in the parking lot, but I didn't know that's what it was. It's all kind of blown-out white, and I thought it was a feature of a roof. And I'd gone to street view from that satellite image and there was no propane tank there, but that's because street view was an older image.

They used to have propane in the gated area at the side of the store, like most locations. But they moved it into the parking lot.

It's not a huge area, and there are trailers parked all around it (which was another reason not to see it). But the toadless moho easily pulled up beside it, by circling around the Mexican restaurant right there to be at the correct angle. With a toad, it would be pretty easy if there are no cars to dodge, so early in the morning would be fine.

Oh, and the price was $3.39, not the $3.29 I'd been told on the phone two days before, when I called to be sure they can fill onboard tanks on motorhomes.

So the Tractor Supply ended up having much more attractive access than the Loves AND was cheaper by more than I'd expected, since the Loves price was higher than advertised.

 

[Adventurous Traveler]

Yeah, the TS near me all have their propane tanks inside of the gated yard area. Even the closet RV dealer to us (former Buffalo RV now Blue Compass) has their tank at the rear of their maintenance area and generally, it's very tough to get to.

It's hard shopping for propane with an onboard tank.

 

[Larry N.]

It's hard shopping for propane with an onboard tank.

It's been a few years now, but I used to drive my 45' Beaver right to the tanks/pump at a feed store not too far from me. So you might check some other sources, perhaps something set for a farming community, though where I went was in the heart of a Denver suburb.

 

[Adventurous Traveler]

Thanks, Larry.

 

[Trivet]

though where I went was in the heart of a Denver suburb.

In the Westminster area? Where is it? I usually wedge my way into the Tractor Supply in Brighton.

 

[Larry N.]

In the Westminster area? Where is it? I usually wedge my way into the Tractor Supply in Brighton.

It's Willow Run Feed & Supply just west of Sheridan on 120th (south side), straight across from Home Depot. It's been several years since I was there (my Ventana was all electric) but Google Earth still shows it. Oh, and it's actually in Broomfield.

 

[Mountain high]

There are no propane cylindrical tank refills at all of the Tractor Supply stores in Western Colorado including Grand Junction, Delta, Durango, Glenwood Springs, Gunnison, and Pagosa Springs. So if you head west across the Rockies, don't count on it as being as easy in finding propane.