Rant: I hate Mercedes Engineers

[Mc2guy]

So my in-laws have a Fleetwood Jamboree DSL on a 2011 Mercedes Sprinter 3500 chassis cut away.  It performs well, good mileage, and smooth ride. As a favor (because I'm a good dutiful Son in Law), I do most of the routine maintenance on the coach part of the unit, including external maintenance, winterization, etc.

This weekend, the chassis electric systems went haywire.  I mean, like possessed by the devel.  Flashing lights, on/off, clicking, whining, and all sorts of commotion.  My first thought was a low voltage problem on the battery combined with some poor engineering of the ECU that was cycling on/off around a low voltage cutoff point.  Mind you, American and Japanese engineers figured out how to just put a "battery" symbol on the dash to tell you there is a problem, but the Germans? Nien.

Sure enough, I put the multimeter on the battery charge points (not the actual battery, and I'll get to that in a minute), and I'm getting 10.4V.  Well below low state-of-charge for a 12V battery.  Knowing it was a long shot (at this point I suspect a shorted cell in the battery), I hook up the charger and let it run... no dice.  So I begin what I now know is an approximately 2 hour job.  That's right, two hours to replace a battery, thus my rant:

The battery is located in a hidden, sealed compartment beneath the driver's feet.  It requires not one, not two, but three distinct disassembly procedures to access it. 
[list type=decimal]
[*]Remove foot well trim with 5mm torx.  Remove floor covering.
[*]Remove 4 metal plate bolts with 6mm torx.  Slide plate out.  Disconnect battery leads with 10mm socket. 
[*]Remove two battery retaining harness bolts requiring a 10mm socket with an 8 INCH EXTENSION.  Of course, I have an 8 inch extension for my 3/8" sockets, but not my 1/4" sockets, because who in their right mind needs an 8 inch extension for 1/4" sockets?
[*]Lift 70 lbs battery out from compartment where you have no leverage or space to lift (under the steering wheel) and try not to herniate a disc.
[*]Reverse procedure for installation.
[/list]

Oh, and the battery is a special design, which you can only find at certain battery dealers/locations and is twice as expensive as a standard battery.

Anyway, problem solved.  Not that ever had an inkling to buy a German vehicle, but Mercedes engineers just helped remind me why I never will.  I should also offer the disclaimer that I work for a very large German corporation and I'm not in the least bit surprised by my experience yesterday...

 

[kdbgoat]

because who in their right mind needs an 8 inch extension for 1/4" sockets?

I guess I'm not in my right mind-I have 3/8"and 1/4" extensions up to 24". ;D Glad you got it fixed though.

 

[Mc2guy]

I guess I'm not in my right mind-I have 3/8"and 1/4" extensions up to 24". ;D Glad you got it fixed though.

Luck favors the prepared I suppose.  The issue is that my 3/8" sockets go down to 11MM.  I needed 10mm, which I only had in 1/4" and of course, I did not have my 3/8 to 1/4 adapter (working in field). 

The issue of course, is why on earth would you design the vehicle to require such an arduous procedure requiring somewhat specialized tools to execute what is one of the simplest forms of vehicle maintenance?  I've owned 25 motor vehicles, and I've never seen such a ridiculous design.  The only one that came close was the headlight change procedure on my wife's '98 VW that required a specialized tool and 1.5 hours of tech labor at the dealership (VW... notice the trend?).

 

[grassy]

I guess I'm not in my right mind-I have 3/8"and 1/4" extensions up to 24". ;D Glad you got it fixed though.

What about you 1/2 in drives ?   

 

[bucks2]

Some vehicles are designed to only have real mechanics with big toolboxes work on them. They put a lot of things into a small amount of room and one needs a good tool set to service them. The nice part of a Mercedes is the very small number of times that things go wrong, if one maintains and treats the vehicle right. Next March will be the 25th anniversary of buying my first Mercedes. I'm very satisfied with my 4th MB since then. 2 were totalled with me inside. I very well may have died in the second crash if not for the safety features built into their full size cars. (smashed between a semi in front and a semi in back that could not stop when traffic did on the freeway) 

"It performs well, good mileage, and smooth ride." Those are classic Mercedes praises.

And I couldn't help but wonder if I was in my right mind or not. "because who in their right mind needs an 8 inch extension for 1/4" sockets?" So I checked my toolbox in the garage. I have one 2", two 3", one 5", one 6" and two pass thru nut driver handles which are both 5", all in 1/4" drive. So I could make the 8" requirement several different ways in 1/4". I could also make 3/8" drive 10mm socket and 8" of extension a number of different ways too. Nobody ever accused me of being in my right mind.

Lets hope they get another good life from this battery.

Ken

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

FWIW, the battery in my strictly American GMC Acadia is under the rear seat floorboards and is an expensive AGM (it has to be a sealed battery, since it's in the passenger compartment). Have to remove a carpet piece (it's designed to come out), remove a cover plate, then finagle various wrenches into the tight cubby hole to remove cables and tie down. And somehow suck the battery up out of the hole, cause there is no way to get your hands in to lift it.  Much cursing is a standard part of the R&R procedure!

 

[Joezeppy]

I've owned 25 motor vehicles, and I've never seen such a ridiculous design.  The only one that came close was the headlight change procedure on my wife's '98 VW that required a specialized tool and 1.5 hours of tech labor at the dealership (VW... notice the trend?).

lol - I recently changed both headlights on my daughter's 2002 VW New Beetle. The design is actually quite good - rotate a lever on the side of the housing and the entire assembly slides out the front. On the driver's side, though, the placement of the battery makes you angle your hand/wrist in such a way that you lose about 90% of the leverage needed to rotate the lever.


Just something we have to deal with, though. Long gone are the days of standing in the engine bay while working on it!

 

[TonyDtorch]

The German engineers have always been "function over form" driven, and throughout history have been at the forefront of performance design.

Things like convenience or style ....when it happened, were accidental.

 

[Rene T]

With the various adapters I have, I can go from 1/4" to 3/8" to 1/2" back to 3/8" and then to 1/4". It would probably be about 36" long.

 

[SeilerBird]

Mc2guy - The battery in your Mercedes sounds like a dream to remove compared to the house batteries in my RV.

 

[Molaker]

Mc2guy - The battery in your Mercedes sounds like a dream to remove compared to the house batteries in my RV.

Can't be any worse than the house batteries in my Winnie ERA - which just happens to be a German Sprinter chassis.  But, the Germans didn't do it.  Winnebago did.  There is one battery on either side just behind the wheelwells.  The 70-80 lb AGM has to drop out the bottom.  Ooookay, now lift the new one back in while laying on your back.  Right!

 

[Mc2guy]

Well, apparently, I just need more 1/4" socket adapters according to most of you.  Point noted. 

As for the one comment on MB reliability, I think you are about two decades behind the times.  The Sprinter chassis is one of the most unreliable on the market and is incredibly expensive to maintain particularly the NCV3 design from 2005 on.  Just go over to the Sprinter Forum and read a few pages of rants... makes my afternoon look like a cakewalk. http://sprinter-source.com/forum/

As an engineer myself, I know good design when I see it, and I know poor design when I see it.  Often times engineering design decisions are made for packaging efficiency or weight distribution, or even aesthetics.  In this case, there is no excuse for the placement of the battery on this chassis as there is plenty of room in the engine bay and plenty of GAWR on the front axle. It was a choice made by someone creating complexity for no purpose... on a commercial chassis no less.  It's one reason the new Transit is eating the Sprinter for lunch right now.  Fleet owners are running from the Sprinters...or should I say sprinting ;D 8)

 

[legrandnormand]

Mc2guy - The battery in your Mercedes sounds like a dream to remove compared to the house batteries in my RV.

You should see where my 3 batteries are in my coach !
Would you beleive, way down the bottom front frame of the coach, just at the bottom radiator level and they provided us an excellent access to them, from a typical gas engine coach, a access door that is 4 feet wide, 1 foot height, but mounted at about 5 feet from the ground !
This is pure USA engineering...I should say "pisspoor" engineering ! 8)
I wish I had a Triple E coach, made and insolated in Canada !

 

[Molaker]

Well, apparently, I just need more 1/4" socket adapters according to most of you.  Point noted. 

As for the one comment on MB reliability, I think you are about two decades behind the times.  The Sprinter chassis is one of the most unreliable on the market and is incredibly expensive to maintain particularly the NCV3 design from 2005 on.  Just go over to the Sprinter Forum and read a few pages of rants... makes my afternoon look like a cakewalk. http://sprinter-source.com/forum/

As an engineer myself, I know good design when I see it, and I know poor design when I see it.  Often times engineering design decisions are made for packaging efficiency or weight distribution, or even aesthetics.  In this case, there is no excuse for the placement of the battery on this chassis as there is plenty of room in the engine bay and plenty of GAWR on the front axle. It was a choice made by someone creating complexity for no purpose... on a commercial chassis no less.  It's one reason the new Transit is eating the Sprinter for lunch right now.  Fleet owners are running from the Sprinters...or should I say sprinting ;D 8)

Go ahead.  Make my day.

 

[John From Detroit]

IT COULD BE WORSE department:

Friend of mine used to drive a Renualt Allaince (Partner of Chrysler at the time)

no on my Dodge, and on my Motor home and on the Min-van (Chevy) I used to drive the heater core is on the right side (As you sit in the car) On older cars it was in the ENGINE compartment (Good spot but let me explain)

Well the engine overheated and the solder melted on one end of the heater core and super heated water (You can easily get water up to 220 degrees in a pressure vessle like a car cooling system, My dodge goes there all the time, it's called NORMAL)  sprays out from the heater core.

Which on the Renualt is right above the steering collum so it's all over his legs (3rd degree was how he got burned)

(I have been there, but not to that extent)

So to remove the heater core they tell you to pull the steering column.

Yup, that's how you do it, 3 hours (there is a 1 hour way but it's not approved, I happen to know what it is)

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Actually, the vaunted Mercedes reputation is mostly a matter of the near-mandatory preventive maintenance that is stipulated in the manuals and heavily promoted by their dealers. Big money maker for them too. American vehicles are better designed from that perspective, i.e. they will continue to run through many a year neglect and abuse and still get you home.

 

[Jerrygroah]

Hey the procedure  described and location of the battery is very similar to where Henry Ford put the "A" model battery.  Maybe Mercedes took lessons from Ford.
The major exception on the A is that you have to remove the floor board or risk getting on arm removed.

Jerry

 

[bucks2]

In this case, there is no excuse for the placement of the battery on this chassis as there is plenty of room in the engine bay and plenty of GAWR on the front axle. It was a choice made by someone creating complexity for no purpose... on a commercial chassis no less.  It's one reason the new Transit is eating the Sprinter for lunch right now.  Fleet owners are running from the Sprinters...or should I say sprinting ;D 8)

On a multi-purpose platform YOU may have plenty of GAWR on the front axle but on other applications there may not be. I find it amazing that you'd admit that engineers are petty enough to "creating complexity for no purpose". I'd imagined that was true on some jobs where I couldn't see any reason for doing something like they did, but to have a practicing engineer admit that his profession is that petty, is enlightening. An engineer that works for a German firm no less, that is complaining about German engineering.

Ken

 

[Lou Schneider]

FWIW, the battery in my strictly American GMC Acadia is under the rear seat floorboards and is an expensive AGM (it has to be a sealed battery, since it's in the passenger compartment).

My 1965 VW bug had it's 6 volt battery underneath the rear seat, above the floor pan.  It wasn't an AGM (hadn't been invented yet) or even vented to the exterior, and the major problem was when someone forgot to replace the cover that protected the battery posts and someone sat down hard on the metal spring rear seat cushion above it.

The acid from the naked battery eventually ate a hole through the floor pan around the edge of the battery.  Aftermarket pan repair kits became really popular in later years.

My 1970 bug had the exact same arrangement, only now it was a 12 volt battery (again, regular lead acid) with the positive terminal recessed and covered by a snap on plastic cover.  Worked fine until the owner replaced the custom battery with a cheaper one with typical protruding top posts and someone sat down hard on the rear seat.

 

[Molaker]

My 1965 VW bug had it's 6 volt battery underneath the rear seat, above the floor pan.  It wasn't an AGM (hadn't been invented yet) or even vented to the exterior, and the major problem was when someone forgot to replace the cover that protected the battery posts and someone sat down hard on the metal spring rear seat cushion above it.

The acid from the naked battery eventually ate a hole through the floor pan around the edge of the battery.  Aftermarket pan repair kits became really popular in later years.

My 1970 bug had the exact same arrangement, only now it was a 12 volt battery (again, regular lead acid) with the positive terminal recessed and covered by a snap on plastic cover.  Worked fine until the owner replaced the custom battery with a cheaper one with typical protruding top posts and someone sat down hard on the rear seat.

My 58 Bug was the same (of course).  I suspect the reason not being vented didn't seem to be a problem was because the generator barely kept up, so boiling was minimum.  Or, it may have been because the old critter was not very air tight.