Royal Purple synthetic motor oils

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Everyone present who has run a single RV enough miles to wear out the engine-- gas or diesel-- please say so.

We actually do see blown engine reports here periodically, perhaps 3-4 per year. There is at least one right now, but I'll let the member decide if he wants to volunteer his status.

The more difficult survey question is "how well were those maintained?".  Nobody ever admits to having done anything wrong, or even sub-optimal in their engine care.

 

[Big Bad Allis]

While I tend to agree with Gary about conventional oil and conventional oil is much better than oil 30 years ago. I have seen several problems with turbos and at least one case of  worn valve guides. My plan is to have no problems. That is why I will spend a little more on oil. I am running a oil sampling program and am happy with the trends. My weare  metal levels are down from the first sample where it had conventional oil. I change annually even though the sample report said I could go much longer.
For those who claim that oil is oil contact me and I will sell you my used oil at a discount over the Walmart price. After all it doesn't matter it's oil and it will save you money.
Bill

Good info. Just an FYI the wear metals are usually higher on the 1st couple oil changes the come back down to normal. When the engines are built there is some "sacrificial" metal that is there and will wear off during break in. 

 

[WILDEBILL308]

Jason, this is a used unit. First sample was at 41,000 miles. Hopefully it is getting broke in. I have about 65,000 on it now. I have read about a couple of "dusted" engins but I don't consider that an oil failure.
Bill

 

[Dan23]

All I was suggesting in my post above is that most people probably either get tired of travel and begin to park for longer periods and then sell their RV-- or another similar scenario-- long before they wear it out. Or they trade for whatever they think they now need, etc. long before they actually wear it out.

All the worry that goes on about oil; and all the worry and money devoted to an RV that will go 300K miles is likely misspent. OTOH, if you happen to be a touring musician...  is Kenny Rogers here?

Not that any of this greatly matters to me. As I often say: To each his/her own.

 

[Oscar Mike]

All the worry that goes on about oil; and all the worry and money devoted to an RV that will go 300K miles is likely misspent.

But, if you don't do the maintenance that is devoted to a 300K mile RV, then you won't have a 20k RV either. I am concerned with maintaining the lubrication systems in my RV, just as much as I am concerned about proper tire inflation, and so forth. I know that my current coach will be sold before it hits 15,000 miles on the odo, but in that time I will have done several oil changes (once every 6-months or 3,000 miles). I don't use synthetics in the RV...yet, I am not convinced it is needed as long as I change my oil and filters as often as I do.

 

[RodgerS]

Dan, I think that you are probably right about the Rv experience. My perspective, since my home is paid for, is that I don't want to sell my home nor leave behind for good all my local friends. Frankly, at age 64 and being a tennis player, I'm not gonna put lots and lots of miles on my RV either. I will go someplace then stay several months, then probably come home for a couple of months. Weather may be a factor. Sometimes I may go rent a place overseas and stay there for a couple of months.

I would be a diesel, not for longevity, but safety, storage, and ride.

As to maintenance, I think it follows our basic outlook. I think we all fall somewhere on the range of taking good care of things and not giving a hoot. Doesn't matter whether not you own the RV for six months or six years, it will simply reflect your personality. You paid for it, you do what you want with it and that includes driving it into the ground if that pleases the owner.

I had a friend who bought his cars as status symbols. I'm sure there are RVers that do the same, run the rig with minimal maintenance, and replace as soon as something new comes out. Maintenance is irrelevant in the short term...just gas and go, unless forced to repair.

On the other hand, there are those of us who will just love our rides as they are, new/old/or vintage, and see maintenance as part of the ownership experience.

 

[Dan23]

On the other hand, there are those of us who will just love our rides as they are, new/old/or vintage, and see maintenance as part of the ownership experience.

I'm constantly working on one thing or another. It's not so much that I like doing work, but it is the satisfaction I get when I'm finished. I'd hate to be retired and bored. I wouldn't want to lose the ability to crawl around on the ground, either. LOL

 

[Mavarick]

It's not surprising how much this topic comes up with the superior advertising and claims that are made.
Synthetic oil will not harm anything, if it leaks with synthetic it was leaking with dino oil, just not as bad. It can definitely leak in older engines though, you just didn't notice the lesser amount with dino oil.
Synthetic really shines with an air cooled engine or anything with heating problems as that is it's major advantage. I would not run an air cooled engine without it. Dino oil is usually good to 180, synthetic is ok to around 240, that is what you are paying for among other things like an advanced additive package.
It will not extend mfr drain intervals. Nothing will except an oil analysis and that is only if you have established a baseline. This is common practice in industry, not so in rv's. The cost savings is just not there and most don't want to do the extra work involved. If you do then watch for changes and analyze them, not just the go/no go results.
Using a synthetic oil such as Transynd which is a spec for the Allison trans is blend authorized by the mfr and thus extends the drain interval, not the same as you deciding what to use and when.
If you pick a major brand of dino oil with the proper class for you engine and stick with it, your engine will be fine. The major oil mfr will have a good starting TBN, if all else is equal this is what says how long you can run it in your engine. The higher the TBN the better (this can be found on an analysis). Don't just buy the cheapest brand every oil change because the additive packages also change. Pick one and stay with it. I use Rotella T in the main engine and genset and it can be purchased at Walmart so easy to get.
We have run diesel engines thousands of hours side by side using everything in the book to lessen maint costs and there are no magic bullets. A lot of the aftermarket stuff will not harm anything, they just don't do any good either.
The cheapest thing you can do is use the proper filters, the same brand oil and follow the mfr intervals.  The biggest mistake you will make regarding maint costs is to try using all the magic out there to extend things and lower your costs. What the mfr recommends is already cost effective, engineered for the particular application and nothing else is needed.
The reason most turbo bearings fail is because of the way they are treated. Pull off the freeway and into a rest stop and shut off your engine and you are cooking your bearings and seal. You need to give the engine oil in the turbo housing a chance to cool. After using the engine at freeway speed idle the engine min 3-5 minutes to cool the oil then shut it off. When we pull into a CG etc I go into the office with engine running to register, the DW shuts it off after about 5 minutes. This allows cooler oil to circulate through the turbo and prevent the number one cause of failure.
A dusted engine is from the air filter or intake being compromised. Something has allowed dirt into the combustion chamber which eats up the rings and the walls of the cylinder sleeves. This is why they say you do more damage than good by changing your air filter too often. It is not a liquid filter, go by the pressure differential gauge and change it when it gets above 18" or at 3-5 years.
All other filters should be OEM or better and changed at mfr intervals regardless of mileage. Maint. will always be less $ than repairs but common sense is still an advantage. Anything that seems to be magic would already be used in all the OEM applications if it actually did what it claims.
It seems common knowledge that maint costs are the cheapest thing you will ever do for your rig but we forget how little it costs to do it right vs what it costs to replace the part. Some have no problem spending $XX,XXX.00 on a rig then complain because a gallon of oil costs $14. Hope this helps either way, happy travels.

 

[RodgerS]

Actually, I think a lot of people buy rigs with bank loans not cash. In reality, they don't have much invested in the rig but a down payment and monthly payments. That then means it is about how much cash is on hand every month, and if they don't plan on having the rig very long, it may be between maintenance and cable costs. Many of us are highly skilled at living high on the monthly payments.

A lot of times someone might say look at my new rig, but never say look at BofA's new rig I'm driving.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

All solid, practical advice, Maverick.

I have observed this debate here many times over the years. Some argue that they want to use only the very best in their very expensive engine & tranny. Others argue that they can save money. These two schools of thought often go head-to-head, since one is a "spare no expense" while the other is "save-save-save". And, we all being human, the arguments are often taken to extremes. However, the "common sense advantage" you alluded to is harder to pin down. Is $20/gallon oil better than $14/gallon oil? If so, how much difference will it make over several years of driving? Are the manufacturer change intervals worst case scenarios, or for typical usage? And are they specific to RV application, or more generic. If a change interval of one year is good, isn't 6 months even better? 3 months? Where do I stop?

I doubt if anything said here has changed a single one of the proponents minds about anything, but maybe some others have learned enough to decide which camp they want to be in. Good luck, whatever you decide!

 

[Oscar Mike]

I doubt if anything said here has changed a single one of the proponents minds about anything, but maybe some others have learned enough to decide which camp they want to be in. Good luck, whatever you decide!

I don't know, I learn a lot from these discussions. I'm still not certain that synthetic is the best way to go, or if changing my oil every 6-months or 3,000 miles is the best answer either. All I know is that I have never had an oil related problem (knock on wood) keeping my oil and filters changed regularly.

 

[Mavarick]

I understand Gary and is why I really don't try and change minds (unless something can be damaged by misinformation) but offer info based on what has been tried before. Some forget the Rv industry is a small spin off of industrial equipment and their are no secrets. Most of the technology has changed so much over the years doing things "old school" will get you in to trouble today.
As I stated above the cost of oil is somewhat irrelevant as long as you stick with a major mfr that meets your API code and keep using the same brand. All the major oil's TBN will be so close to the same it will not matter which specific brand you use. If it makes you feel better do an analysis and check for yourself. If you change it based on your manual your TBN will still be acceptable, usually once per year.
Nothing will extend your intervals, do them based on the mfr recommendations, yes most are for typical usage. Changing more often is a waste, going longer is doing damage. Forget that this is an Rv, we are talking about a diesel engine, the mfr is Cat or Cummins, etc and that is all that matters. We don't care if the engine was used in a CG or out on a hill in a D-7.
The only thing that will be something to consider when it comes to Rv's is the lack of mileage. This means you can sometimes do dumb stuff and not realize the damage that is being done, at least, right away. The best case is that you try and do your best to follow standards that have been in place and worked for years. Specific questions and applications require specific answers but in general the standards the mfr put out are there for specific reasons. The common sense advantage is basically doing what you know is correct (in the manuals) and avoiding the latest popular opinion. Most opinions are meant in the best possible way but some still make me cringe when I read them.
With that said at least it brings up discussion as to whether or whether not, which usually requires a couple beers to discuss! 

 

[Big Bad Allis]

FYI... For those of you who are interested I offered the following to members of this site.

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,76032.0.html

I have years of knowledge in the lubricant engineering field supporting companies like Cummins, Detroit Diesel, International and automotive OEM divisions.  I also have worked in the industrial/manufacturing field as well.

Best advice I can give as a general statement.  Do an oil analysis one time at your normal drain to see the overall health of your engine and where the oil stands in regards to it's original state and life left.  After that make a decision if it was in too long or you could go further.  Stick with a brand that is of high quality and works for you.  If you feel you have a problem you may want to do a couple to get some trending information.  The advantage of a regular oil analysis is to find the hidden problems that you don't know until they happen.  This is mostly not the quality of the oil or how long you have used it.  It is the engine killer contaminants like coolant and fuel dilution. Brand new oil with 500 miles on it will fail with coolant in it.

Best Regards,
Jason

 

[RodgerS]

Jason, hypothetically, assume I purchase a diesel RV from a dealer or private owner who has just changed the oil. I'm assuming I need at least 500 miles before I pull an oil sample, is that about right? Secondly, would that need to change if the mileage on the rig is 20K, 40K, or 75K? Would pulling an oil sample with 6k miles on an oil change or 12 months be better?

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Forget that this is an Rv, we are talking about a diesel engine, the mfr is Cat or Cummins, etc and that is all that matters. We don't care if the engine was used in a CG or out on a hill in a D-7.

Actually, Cummins and Cat do care where the engine is used, and they typically specify different maintenance and change intervals for different applications, e.g. Industrial, RV & Bus, Marine, Offroad, etc.    So does Allison Transmission.

The RV application is considered light duty and the oil change intervals are generally longer than, say, offroad equipment or marine usage.

 

[SeilerBird]

All the worry that goes on about oil; and all the worry and money devoted to an RV that will go 300K miles is likely misspent. OTOH, if you happen to be a touring musician...  is Kenny Rogers here?

Yes he is, he goes under the disguise of Bob Buchanan. ;D

 

[Big Bad Allis]

Jason, hypothetically, assume I purchase a diesel RV from a dealer or private owner who has just changed the oil. I'm assuming I need at least 500 miles before I pull an oil sample, is that about right? Secondly, would that need to change if the mileage on the rig is 20K, 40K, or 75K? Would pulling an oil sample with 6k miles on an oil change or 12 months be better?

Hello Rodger

Yes you would need to have some mileage on the oil to get values on wear metals and contaminates.  6k miles on a drain will be adequate for analysis.  You can get a vacuum pump to pull a sample of the oil without draining or changing the oil.  No need to waste oil that is still usable just to perform an oil analysis.

Hope this helps

Jason

 

[RodgerS]

Yes it does Jason, because one of the standard recommendations that is made, and appropriately so, is to have a qualified mechanic, diesel or gas, examine the rig and of course pay them time for their evaluation. Another standard recommendation is to have an RV evaluator evaluate the rig. All very good ideas.

Secondarily, one has the challenge of reviewing maintenance invoices and logs if available to determine to what degree one can verify that a long list of regular maintenance has been done. Obviously, only some or even none of the information is available in many cases.

And even personally, one can look over a roof, check for sidewall delam, check the tires, look for rust, look for sloppiness indicators, etc. 

All great, but yes, still limited. And sure, no way to be 100% sure.  Just like a car, we can't peak deeply inside the engine and nobody is gonna pull out the engine and tear it apart for a look-e-loo.

So, the idea of an oil analysis, though obviously not a do all solution, seems to me to be something that also reasonably can be done on a lot of rigs out there that are for sale and if the oil was changed recently, one could put something in a clause in the agreement with a financial holdback if there is real value in doing an oil analysis.

I found a couple of articles I'm reading.
http://www.titanlab.com/value-of-fluid-analysis/
http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/whats-your-engine-oil-telling-you.html

So, yes, I'm bringing up my knowledge base on what can be learned. Seems like something worthwhile, even if again, you can't reach 100 % assurance, but any of these key steps left out seem to add undue risk for the low information or emotional buyer of a used vehicle as well as at stages if the life of a vehicle you buy new.

 

[Mavarick]

Forget that this is an Rv, we are talking about a diesel engine, the mfr is Cat or Cummins, etc and that is all that matters. We don't care if the engine was used in a CG or out on a hill in a D-7.

Actually, Cummins and Cat do care where the engine is used, and they typically specify different maintenance and change intervals for different applications, e.g. Industrial, RV & Bus, Marine, Offroad, etc.    So does Allison Transmission.

The RV application is considered light duty and the oil change intervals are generally longer than, say, offroad equipment or marine usage.

Gary, I realize this. My statement was in answer to your hypothetical question below which was :

Are the manufacturer change intervals worst case scenarios, or for typical usage? And are they specific to RV application, or more generic. If a change interval of one year is good, isn't 6 months even better? 3 months? Where do I stop?

My point again is to follow your manual and stop second guessing it no matter what you feel your usage is. The mfr already has listed the different scenarios and taken usage into consideration. In real world industrial an engine barely goes 30 days without oil & filter changes, doesn't mean you should do the same in an Rv.

Edit: Fixed quotes.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Agreed, Maverick.