rv death spriral

[SeilerBird]

While this is pie in the sky, if there was an option to pay a fee (let's say 5% of the purchase price) to have a motorhome that's delivered as bug free as humanly possible, would you pay it?

No it is just not possible to make an RV that is bug free. A lot of the problems don't pop up until it gets driven a few thousand shaky miles down the road. And lots of problems only show up when it is really hot or really cold. Way too many diverse conditions to test it under.

 

[PBG]

Sure I would pay it, but 5% would not even come close to making the product bug free, and therein lies the problem.

Two Questions:

1) I wonder how much the surcharge would be to deliver a coach that works as promoted?

2) Is that even possible?

I'm really starting to re-think my desire to buy a motorhome as possibly, I have too high a level of expectations. These things aren't cheap and the expectation of buying quality seems reasonable. I've never been one for Government regulations, but maybe it's time to ask our elected representatives to include motorhomes into the lemon laws. From what I've read, it seems that RVIA has done all it can do to lobby politicians to make sure lemon laws don't apply to motorhomes. This is just sad.

 

[PBG]

No it is just not possible to make an RV that is bug free. A lot of the problems don't pop up until it gets driven a few thousand shaky miles down the road. And lots of problems only show up when it is really hot or really cold. Way too many diverse conditions to test it under.

I asked a manufacturer's representative (not a dealer salesperson) if when the driver delivers a coach from the factory to a dealer that's located 1,000 miles away, does the driver report issues noticed along the way.

The answer I received was, that's not his job.

My follow up question was, why not? Would it be that difficult for the driver to report the steering or brakes are problematic or that the slide was making a lot of noise? It seems that by even doing something that simple, things can be identified and fixed before it's given to the buyer and would make that punch list a little bit shorter.

I really don't get this industry.

 

[TonyDtorch]

RV's are a complex handmade mobile self-sustaining house and vehicle and typically they all require ongoing maintenance and some repair.
This is why everyone is saying to buy a used RV that is already gone through all the 'Shake-down' process.

the odds of nothing going wrong with anything less than a brand new million dollar rv is very slim...

if you can't handle buying a used rv,  or any rv that may need some tinkering then maybe you really should just stick to motels for your travels.



good luck.

 

[scottydl]

No it is just not possible to make an RV that is bug free. A lot of the problems don't pop up until it gets driven a few thousand shaky miles down the road. And lots of problems only show up when it is really hot or really cold. Way too many diverse conditions to test it under.

Very well said, and realistically put.

I'm really starting to re-think my desire to buy a motorhome as possibly, I have too high a level of expectations. These things aren't cheap and the expectation of buying quality seems reasonable.

I agree with both of these... but it seems like your expectation may be to buy "perfect" or "problem free."  That just will not happen.  But it doesn't mean you'll end up with a piece of junk either!  Many of us have done just fine over the years, hanging out enjoying RV'ing and dealing with the little problems that pop up along the way.

 

[tcg]

I'll jump in with my newbie opinion.

I'm 52, the wife and I have been married for 32 years, been together since high school.

We always planned to buy an RV around age 62 when we retire. I had a heart attack, stroke and a couple cardiac interventions in the last couple years. Because of that we moved up our plan to a couple weeks ago. I may not make 62. Damn genes.

We could have easily plopped down a hundred grand cash and picked up a new RV but we decided if the lifestyle wasn't for us we didn't want to take the hit on a new one as soon as we drove it off the lot.

We looked at dealers for a decent class c under 30' for 30 - 50 grand. The ones that were available were in tough shape for the money. I can't believe how many dealers don't bother even vacuuming their used inventory before showing them

So then we turned to Craigslist figuring with our budget we should be able to find something decent, nope still a bunch of crap, overpriced and falling apart.

Then I saw a listing for a 1996 Shasta 28'. The guy wanted 14 grand. What the heck, it was the holiday weekend and we weren't doing anything so we went and took a look. Turned out to be the most pleasant experience and the rig was the cleanest best maintained RV we ever looked at. I offered 10 and we settled on 12,000.

I spent about a grand on things like a new sewer hose, drinking water hoses, adapters, a new mattress, etc...(lots of etc...) I spent another 6 grand on a small scooter and carrier. We have plenty of cash left over to really explore the lifestyle.

If for some reason we don't like it we can sell it for what we paid for it and had a bunch of fun along the way. If we like it and I survive we will know exactly what we want when we move up to a newer one.

The exterior is very clean with no rust or rot. The roof is all sealed with no evidence of leaks. The awning is 2 years old, there are 6 brand new tires and meticulous service records. The interior is dated but very clean and nothing is broken. The cab is like new.  The cab does not have power windows or locks but who cares. Even if I had to replace the A/C, converter (that will probablly happen before our month long trip to Florida this winter), and generator we're still way a head. And it's only has 45,000 miles.

So the whole point of this is we may have gone way to the other end of buying a brand new rig but don't discount buying something with some age to test out the water.

This also wasn't a single good find, we did find one other 2001 28' with a slide for 20 grand but the guy accepted my offer and then his wife decided to try and get more by pitting me against another offer. We decided not to play and walked away from that deal but had I gone for the whole 20,000 it would have been a fabulous deal.

As far as death spiral, we enjoy watching those RV shows where they follow people through the buying experience. We can not believe how many first time buyers who never even drove an RV will plop down in excess of a hundred grand for something they're not even sure about. So it appears as though there are plenty of people willing to buy those shiny new rigs bugs and all.

 

[scottydl]

Great post tcg, thanks for sharing... and take care of yourself so you can enjoy that RV as long as possible!  ;D

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

While this is pie in the sky, if there was an option to pay a fee (let's say 5% of the purchase price) to have a motorhome that's delivered as bug free as humanly possible, would you pay it?

I think a competent RV tech (not always easy to find) could sort out many production line defects with 12-16 hours of work-time checking everything out thoroughly. It's not even all that difficult, but it is definitely time consuming. Fill water system and pressure test. Fill and empty the waste tanks and check gauges. Run fridge to cold on both gas and electric. Check batteries, operate all the drawers and cabinet doors,  weigh and check tire pressure, etc. etc. etc. The sales department isn't willing to pay the service dept for that amount of tech labor, though, cause it comes right off the bottom line, meaning the selling price has to be $1000-$1500 higher. It also delays delivery by a day or so, which can be a an issue for the buyer.  Some places only allow a couple hours of "prep" time, perhaps just having the "lot boy" wash it up and take a quick look through..

Note that this is delivery prep & diagnostic time only - any required repairs can be billed to the factory as warranty items.

Realistically, how do you tell a customer that it is going to cost $1000+ more to make sure the factory screw-ups are found and fixed? Or that the reason your selling price is higher than a competitors is that you make sure it actually works right?

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

American Coach offers a VIP Factory Delivery option that essentially does what you suggest. The factory has a team that does what they expect a dealer to do for a luxury class coach buyer, i.e. verify everything and respond to all the customers questions and concerns.  The factory charges for this service ($1400 the last I knew, but that was 3+ years ago) and its up to the buyer to negotiate that into the price he pays the dealer for the rig (you still buy from a dealer, even though you take delivery at the factory).

Many luxury coach buyers choose this option, enough so that American actually built a VIP facility to handle them on a daily basis. Presumably someone buying a new coach that is upwards of $400k and maybe as much as $1M will consider that money well-spent (I would!).

 

[TonyDtorch]

I would just look at the saleman and tell him... before I write you a check for $400,000,  you need to throw in this 0.35% option that should have been included in the deal anyway...

what do you think he will say ?

 

[PBG]

I think a competent RV tech (not always easy to find) could sort out many production line defects with 12-16 hours of work-time checking everything out thoroughly. It's not even all that difficult, but it is definitely time consuming. Fill water system and pressure test. Fill and empty the waste tanks and check gauges. Run fridge to cold on both gas and electric. Check batteries, operate all the drawers and cabinet doors,  weigh and check tire pressure, etc. etc. etc. The sales department isn't willing to pay the service dept for that amount of tech labor, though, cause it comes right off the bottom line, meaning the selling price has to be $1000-$1500 higher. It also delays delivery by a day or so, which can be a an issue for the buyer.  Some places only allow a couple hours of "prep" time, perhaps just having the "lot boy" wash it up and take a quick look through..

Note that this is delivery prep & diagnostic time only - any required repairs can be billed to the factory as warranty items.

Realistically, how do you tell a customer that it is going to cost $1000+ more to make sure the factory screw-ups are found and fixed? Or that the reason your selling price is higher than a competitors is that you make sure it actually works right?

This is what confuses me about this industry. What has happened that makes the manufacturers feel that it's okay to deliver flawed motorhomes to the dealers that have not been thoroughly checked out? Don't they realize that they are creating ill will between its dealers and the customers by delivering new coaches that come with long punch lists? How long would it take them to put it through a few paces? Two days? Instead, the new owner needs to spend a few months addressing these issues.

I come from an industry where customer satisfaction is tantamount and we believe the first impressions are lasting impressions. It seems the fix is easy...don't release new production models until they have been thoroughly checked out. And, during delivery, if the long haul driver spots a flaw, allow it to be repaired prior to delivering it to the buyer. I'm really confused on why the buyer needs to go through the inconvenience of having to list repairs that should have been addressed prior to leaving the factory.

I guess this is why the manufacturers don't pay J.D. Powers to conduct surveys. And, if they did, they would never let us see the results.

While I thought the "Death Spiral" title of Greg's series was a bit overkill, maybe it's accurate as the industry is killing itself.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Depends on whether you already negotiated a low price before adding that extra on. If you stated it up front, he already knows you will be paying the factory for delivery prep and he will "save" whatever his own prep cost would have been, so it's already factored into the selling price. But if you negotiated a rock bottom price up front and then said, "Oh, and you have to throw in this $1400 option", it might just be a deal breaker. Or he might say, "I'll knock off $500 more and you are on your own at the factory".

Just to be clear, he doesn't get a penny of the VIP Delivery fee: it is paid directly to the factory at the time of delivery.

 

[TonyDtorch]

Airplanes and big boats are tested before delivery ....

but for some reason people that buy motorhomes want to be the first person to crap in the toilet ?...so to say.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

While I thought the "Death Spiral" title of Greg's series was a bit overkill, maybe it's accurate as the industry is killing itself.

Not hardly. It's the way they have always done business, and RV sales are at an all time high. Why would they change anything? And all the manufacturers do the same, so no internal competition either.

Not really any different than the US auto industry before the Japanese invasion. It took real competition on both price and quality to force a change in attitude.

 

[TonyDtorch]

it would make the product look much better if that '.35% option' was included in the base price.

 

[TonyDtorch]

Not really any different than the US auto industry before the Japanese invasion. It took real competition on both price and quality to force a change in attitude.

then they need to make shipping containers wider and longer for the industry to ever change.

I can't wait for my new Monako to arrive from Amazon...

 

[PBG]

"Oh, and you have to throw in this $1400 option", it might just be a deal breaker. Or he might say, "I'll knock off $500 more and you are on your own at the factory".

Just to be clear, he doesn't get a penny of the VIP Delivery fee: it is paid directly to the factory at the time of delivery.

While I'm not intending to be glib, maybe the VIP Deliver Fee is simply misnamed. Possibly it should simply be included in the price and if the buyer doesn't want to pay it, call it the "sucker" discount. Here's how it would play out:

Salesman: Here's the best price I can give you and the motorhome will be thoroughly checked, tested and all items operated at the factory by a professional. This price is 30% off the published MSRP.

Buyer: That's too much, I want a discount.

Salesman: Okay, we can remove the quality control check and I can save you $1,500, but you'll need to create your own punch list, then wait in line to get them fixed.

 

[PBG]

Not hardly. It's the way they have always done business, and RV sales are at an all time high. Why would they change anything? And all the manufacturers do the same, so no internal competition either.

Not really any different than the US auto industry before the Japanese invasion. It took real competition on both price and quality to force a change in attitude.

Why should the manufactures change they way they've worked in the past? The simple answer is: The Internet.

As a recent RVIA research report stated, 90% of buyers utilize the Internet to research new RVs and Motorhomes. 70% utilize YouTube videos.

Threads such as these (and this topic is being discussed on various forums) create a buyer beware attitude and can give new buyers a major pause and remove the emotion from the purchase.

I'm speaking from a first person's view as I'm currently in the research/shopping mode. Yes, I'm starting to consider the possibility of a pre-owned Foretravel and quite possibly an older Prevost over a new Cornerstone or Grand Tour. Less sizzle and features, but proven models.

 

[sadixon49]

Airplanes and big boats are tested before delivery ....

but for some reason people that buy motorhomes want to be the first person to crap in the toilet ?...so to say.

Yea but, you can sure flush the toilet. and ensure it works and doesn't leak, without have to crap in it.

This nonsense that the industry apologist's proclaim, that your buying a house on a truck so you must expect problems, is a load of el toro ca ca. The best example is trailerable boats, they ride on the backs of trailers, about the same as RVs, you dump them in the water and they don't leak. How can that happen? The cruisers have beds like an RV, a galley like an RV, and a head like an RV, and they all work. And nothing you put an RV through, including boondocking out across the country will compare to the pounding that a boat takes crossing the chop to return to port before the storm. Those boats don't cost more than many RVs, and often cost quite a bit less.

I've purchased and owned 8 houses, 3 of them brand new. In everyone, every system, worked from day 1. Not 1 toilet leaked, not 1 sink failed to work, every AC unit, every furnace, and water heater, worked right on the first try. Maybe, just maybe, the RV industry needs to try just a bit harder.

BTW, I can't say that about my "new" motorhome, 6 months old tomorrow, spent the first 4 months in storage, it was cold until mid April, and a month of the last 2 awaiting repairs at the dealer's lot. Bad water heater.

 

[PBG]

This nonsense that the industry apologist's proclaim, that your buying a house on a truck so you must expect problems, is a load of el toro ca ca.

I had a similar conversation with a Friend over the weekend. The subject was the motorhome manufacturer's line about driving in a earthquake through hurricane force winds. I provided a first hand experience...

I live in South Florida...a hurricane zone. Ten years ago I lived in a house that was built prior to the current building standards. When a tropical storm would blow through, the windows would vibrate and the roof seemed like it could blow off. Wind would leak through the house.

I later purchased a new construction home built to current standards and guess what? Even in hurricane winds, the house doesn't budge. It's basically silent. Because it has a standby generator, it's a safe and comfortable place to ride out a storm.

So, how does this equate to motorhome manufacturers? Simply stated: New building codes are needed. These "built to RVIA standards" don't seem to be doing the job. Build a better house, have a pleasurable experience. This is what happens when you have the motorhome manufacturers establishing its own standard of quality.