T
TonyDtorch
Guest
I guess there are some people that would wear a life-jacket on a Cruise Ship.
All kinds of bad things could happen...
All kinds of bad things could happen...
Safe to leave gas on while driving?
- Thread starter wijames2002
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an RV or an interest in RVing!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
- Status
Bill N
Well-known member
A light bulb just came on as a result of this thread. Now I know how I can run my oxygen concentrator while on the road instead of using up bottled oxygen. THE INVERTER. Concentrator is not a high power user but it does need 110 v so run a little tubing to needed place and I should be in business. Will go looking for a used home concentrator - they are much cheaper than the portable models.
WILDEBILL308
Well-known member
timjet said:
One more bunch of un proven statements and false statement's about how unsafe it is to leave the propane on.
Bill
WILDEBILL308
Well-known member
Bill, use a circuit detector, you should have a outlet in the bedroom that is powered by the inverter. Turn off shore/genarater power and see what outlets have power. I have on outlet and the rear tv in the beadroom. In front I have the front tv one outlet and the microwave and icemaker outlet.Bill N said:
Bill
H5-Phil
Well-known member
In 2 decades of towing TTers, we've never traveled with our propane tanks open. The plus side for us is that the question of whether or not it's safe, is moot.
Bill N
Well-known member
Just as a funny, your post reminded me that for the first 3 years of RVing (it wasn't yet called that), we also used no propane on the road. The fridge was an ICEBOX.......lolH5-Phil said:
JoelP
Well-known member
8Muddypaws said:
Safety aside, isn't it likely that you will be well out of level much of the time while you are driving. Won't that cause crystallization to occur in the system to degrade performance?
NY_Dutch
Well-known member
JoelP said:
That's not an issue while underway. Normal vehicle motion keeps the fluid agitated enough to prevent crystallization. And most roadways keep the fridge within the level limits the fridge manufacturers specify anyway, on all but the steepest grades.
T
TonyDtorch
Guest
I love that article about the 'Dangers' of leaving the propane on. ;D
If you blow a tire, go off the road, rollover, brake the gas line, it could explode !!
after all that ...it may be better. You go out with a bang.
Or....you can leave the gas on...leave the fridge on....Slow down a bit ....and everything will be fine.)
If you blow a tire, go off the road, rollover, brake the gas line, it could explode !!
after all that ...it may be better. You go out with a bang.
Or....you can leave the gas on...leave the fridge on....Slow down a bit ....and everything will be fine.
)
Dreamsend
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2016
- Posts
- 614
Love the fact that so many are concerned with this as a safety issue, and obviously, that so many have thought about it. If you'll allow, I'd like to throw some science at this issue for those who may be interested. If I understand correctly, the concern is that an igniter spark in the refrigerator or the hot water heater will ignite gasoline/diesel vapors. The short answer is yes, it could. But look more closely at the conditions that MUST be present in the environment where the SPARK is for that to happen. I'll use gasoline in my example, cause this one I know off the top of my head, having taught it to thousands of industrial employees so they can safely work with flammable materials in the course of their jobs. BTW, I'm not trying to convince anyone to NOT turn off their sources of ignition in their rigs if that is their choice.
For a fire (a slow explosion) or an explosion (a fast fire) to occur, we all know you have to have oxygen, a fuel source in vapor form, and heat (spark, flame, catalytic converter, etc.). Otherwise known as the fire triangle. However, these three things also have to align perfectly in order for ignition to occur. Oxygen is a no brainer in our example, and the heat source (igniter) is also obvious. The trick is having the fuel vapor concentration within the FLAMMABLE LIMITS of gasoline, which is 3.5% to 7.5% concentration in air. That is, the air at the spark must contain at least 3.5% gasoline vapor and no more than 7.5%. Put another way, the air has to contain 35,000 to 75,000 parts per million (ppm) of gasoline vapor -- and to do so, this vapor is displacing the other components in air, i.e. oxygen (for life) and nitrogen mostly. What are ppm-s? Imagine a hotel with a thousand floors -- one tall building, and now imagine there are 1,000 rooms on each floor. That hotel has 1 million rooms (or parts). At least 35,000 of those rooms would have to be filled with gasoline vapor so that, if a spark were introduced, the air would ignite. (a silly exercise perhaps!).
The odor threshold (when you can smell the vapor) for gasoline is 0.025 ppm for most people. Waaaaayyyyy below 35,000 ppm. I can honestly say, that if you and your rig pull into an environment with at least 35,000 ppm gasoline vapor in the air -- which would have to happen for that air to somehow also penetrate your reefer and the heater at the igniter -- you would immediately be unable to breath! You would quickly asphyxiate unless moved to a normal oxygen environment, and a fire would be the least of your worries.
BTW - the same logic applies to diesel fuel-- although I don't know the exact numbers, they are similar, -- diesel limits change a little depending on the mix, much more than the flammability limits of gasoline.
I'm certainly no mechanic who knows auto engines in and out, but to kinda back this up with what we've all observed, I wonder how we made it through years and years of gassing up millions of vehicles with spark plugs, when we all used to keep the engines running while fueling? Safe? Maybe not. Were there fires, yes. Were they frequent? No. Catalytic converters (reaching temps of 1,000 degrees F, which is way above the flashpoint of -40 degrees F for gasoline) in poor shape are much more likely to cause a gas station fire than running propane in an RV. But even fires caused by catalytic converters are infrequent, because that magic mix of oxygen and fuel vapor has be be just right to ignite. Given all the air movement with breezes etc. creating the magic mix is NOT frequent nor sustainable. Converters are why we turn off engines while fueling. But I always wondered -- what about all the vehicles operating as they pull in and out and jockey for a pump?
The gas station fire in MO mentioned in this thread, where the exact cause remains uncertain, but is speculated to have been due to static electricity is another good example. I would speculate that the fuel dispenser may not have been not properly grounded, and static electricity, the discharge of which is always a potential in the absence of proper grounding when two dissimilar substances rub against one another, (like gasoline flowing through a hose) discharged somewhere at or near the dispenser where the "magic" fuel vapor and oxygen ratio was present. Someone else mentioned spills at gas stations -- once again, the environment in the immediate vicinity of a spill would still have to be the magic mix, so that in the presence of an ignition source, it would ignite. That ignition source is highly, highly, unlikely to be your reefer or heater igniter. I'm certain there are a few of you out there that played the game of throwing a lighted match into a container of gasoline to show-off to your friends. Lucky you - your match missed encountering the "magic" environment, and was extinguished by the liquid gasoline, because as we all know, liquids don't burn, only vapors.
Is it possible that RV equipment igniters can cause a fire. Yes, given that they ignite in the presence of the correct oxygen and fuel vapor mixture and that enough combustible materials are around to sustain the fire. But is it probable to an extent that igniters must be turned off? I'll offer an analogy. Is it possible I could die within the next 5 minutes? Yes, it is possible. But based on current conditions and circumstances, is it not probable to the extent that I even need think about it. A bit dramatic probably, but I couldn't come up with anything better.
Just my thoughts on the issue. I don't plan to turn off sources of ignition in my TT while fueling, unless the equipment is malfunctioning for some reason. I just don't think those ignition sources will be located in a "flammable" environment while I'm fueling.
Linda
For a fire (a slow explosion) or an explosion (a fast fire) to occur, we all know you have to have oxygen, a fuel source in vapor form, and heat (spark, flame, catalytic converter, etc.). Otherwise known as the fire triangle. However, these three things also have to align perfectly in order for ignition to occur. Oxygen is a no brainer in our example, and the heat source (igniter) is also obvious. The trick is having the fuel vapor concentration within the FLAMMABLE LIMITS of gasoline, which is 3.5% to 7.5% concentration in air. That is, the air at the spark must contain at least 3.5% gasoline vapor and no more than 7.5%. Put another way, the air has to contain 35,000 to 75,000 parts per million (ppm) of gasoline vapor -- and to do so, this vapor is displacing the other components in air, i.e. oxygen (for life) and nitrogen mostly. What are ppm-s? Imagine a hotel with a thousand floors -- one tall building, and now imagine there are 1,000 rooms on each floor. That hotel has 1 million rooms (or parts). At least 35,000 of those rooms would have to be filled with gasoline vapor so that, if a spark were introduced, the air would ignite. (a silly exercise perhaps!).
The odor threshold (when you can smell the vapor) for gasoline is 0.025 ppm for most people. Waaaaayyyyy below 35,000 ppm. I can honestly say, that if you and your rig pull into an environment with at least 35,000 ppm gasoline vapor in the air -- which would have to happen for that air to somehow also penetrate your reefer and the heater at the igniter -- you would immediately be unable to breath! You would quickly asphyxiate unless moved to a normal oxygen environment, and a fire would be the least of your worries.
BTW - the same logic applies to diesel fuel-- although I don't know the exact numbers, they are similar, -- diesel limits change a little depending on the mix, much more than the flammability limits of gasoline.
I'm certainly no mechanic who knows auto engines in and out, but to kinda back this up with what we've all observed, I wonder how we made it through years and years of gassing up millions of vehicles with spark plugs, when we all used to keep the engines running while fueling? Safe? Maybe not. Were there fires, yes. Were they frequent? No. Catalytic converters (reaching temps of 1,000 degrees F, which is way above the flashpoint of -40 degrees F for gasoline) in poor shape are much more likely to cause a gas station fire than running propane in an RV. But even fires caused by catalytic converters are infrequent, because that magic mix of oxygen and fuel vapor has be be just right to ignite. Given all the air movement with breezes etc. creating the magic mix is NOT frequent nor sustainable. Converters are why we turn off engines while fueling. But I always wondered -- what about all the vehicles operating as they pull in and out and jockey for a pump?
The gas station fire in MO mentioned in this thread, where the exact cause remains uncertain, but is speculated to have been due to static electricity is another good example. I would speculate that the fuel dispenser may not have been not properly grounded, and static electricity, the discharge of which is always a potential in the absence of proper grounding when two dissimilar substances rub against one another, (like gasoline flowing through a hose) discharged somewhere at or near the dispenser where the "magic" fuel vapor and oxygen ratio was present. Someone else mentioned spills at gas stations -- once again, the environment in the immediate vicinity of a spill would still have to be the magic mix, so that in the presence of an ignition source, it would ignite. That ignition source is highly, highly, unlikely to be your reefer or heater igniter. I'm certain there are a few of you out there that played the game of throwing a lighted match into a container of gasoline to show-off to your friends. Lucky you - your match missed encountering the "magic" environment, and was extinguished by the liquid gasoline, because as we all know, liquids don't burn, only vapors.
Is it possible that RV equipment igniters can cause a fire. Yes, given that they ignite in the presence of the correct oxygen and fuel vapor mixture and that enough combustible materials are around to sustain the fire. But is it probable to an extent that igniters must be turned off? I'll offer an analogy. Is it possible I could die within the next 5 minutes? Yes, it is possible. But based on current conditions and circumstances, is it not probable to the extent that I even need think about it. A bit dramatic probably, but I couldn't come up with anything better.
Just my thoughts on the issue. I don't plan to turn off sources of ignition in my TT while fueling, unless the equipment is malfunctioning for some reason. I just don't think those ignition sources will be located in a "flammable" environment while I'm fueling.
Linda
UTTransplant
Well-known member
Thank you Linda for facts, not conjecture.
Rene T
Site Team
Well said Linda.
HappyWanderer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2014
- Posts
- 2,967
I'm not convinced. The fact remains that gasoline vapors being ignited at filling stations is a fairly frequent occurrence. Obviously, that means the correct conditions to support such ignition are also present.
Using spark plugs as a reference is not valid: there's a reason why the term "internal combustion" is used to describe an automobile engine.
And no, the same logic does not apply to diesel fuel. You can actually submerge a burning road flare in a bucket of diesel fuel without incident. I wouldn't want to try that with gasoline.
A filling station is not a controlled industrial environment, where vapor concentration is known or can be predicted. To knowingly introduce a possible ignition source into a potentially explosive atmosphere is nothing less than stupid.
Using spark plugs as a reference is not valid: there's a reason why the term "internal combustion" is used to describe an automobile engine.
And no, the same logic does not apply to diesel fuel. You can actually submerge a burning road flare in a bucket of diesel fuel without incident. I wouldn't want to try that with gasoline.
A filling station is not a controlled industrial environment, where vapor concentration is known or can be predicted. To knowingly introduce a possible ignition source into a potentially explosive atmosphere is nothing less than stupid.
T
TonyDtorch
Guest
HappyWanderer said:
"fairly frequent" ? of the millions of gasoline fill-ups every hour all over the country and you hear about an explosion once or twice a year ??
What are the odds of getting hit by lightning ? ???
HappyWanderer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2014
- Posts
- 2,967
I would call an average of 4,000 vehicle fires per year at filling stations to be a "fairly frequent" occurrence.
Certainly no one would consider someone lighting up a cigarette at a gas pump to be acceptable behavior. Why would a DSI in the same location be any different?
Certainly no one would consider someone lighting up a cigarette at a gas pump to be acceptable behavior. Why would a DSI in the same location be any different?
NY_Dutch
Well-known member
4,000 vehicles is about 0.0015% of the ~255,000,000 cars on the road in the US. With about 45,000 new cars sold per day in the US, I'd call that a pretty insignificant number, and even more insignificant when we don't know the causes of those fires. Obviously they weren't all caused by RV'ers leaving the fridge on while refueling.
T
TonyDtorch
Guest
HappyWanderer said:
As a kid working a many different gas stations, I remember 100's of people that would get out of their car with a lit cigarette while I was putting gas into it.
We were instructed to wash all the service bays with gasoline every night at closing... and me and my friends all smoked back then.
but that was back in the metal dash no seatbelt days.... before stupidity was classified as an official disability.
Larry N.
Well-known member
There are many ways a car can catch fire that don't involve the same situation as an RV appliance. Break out those 4,000 into causes and perhaps you'll have something. There are LOTS of car fires every year (probably more than 4,000- I don't have figures) that are nowhere near a filling station, too.
WILDEBILL308
Well-known member
Add to that, my coach is diesel. I have never heard of a (proven) case of a coach catching fire while refueling because the propane was on.
Bill
Bill
Old_Crow
Well-known member
Not to mention that my 2 potential sources of ignition(w/h and fridge)are on the totally opposite side of the coach and about 20 feet down the side from the gas filler neck. Now I do turn them off when filling propane, they're only like 5 feet from that tank.
- Status
