The RV industry's quality problem

[Jammer]

In a couple months my Airstream will be out of warranty.

Here are the repairs that have been performed since I took delivery.  Most were corrected under warranty by the dealer.  A few I fixed myself to save a trip to the dealership:

1) Remove dangling wires coming from roof locker in bedroom
2) Repair trim in galley by outside door
3) Relocate refrigerant line in aft heat pump, it was rubbing against something and making loud noises
4) Plug in temperature sensor for aft heat pump, someone at the factory forgot
5) Recalibrate holding tank sensor, factory did it wrong
6) Replace light switch assembly in fridge, it got stuck and wouldn't turn on any more, parts were sticking because they were out of dimensional tolerance
7) Replace LED tail light assemblies, failed after several months
8) Replace outside door lock assembly which was prone to lockouts
9) Replace water pump due to defective valve
10) Replace foldout table due to crazing in the finish, probably applied too thick by the spray operator
11) Replace locking hinges for the little foldout countertop extension, they weren't attached securely and pulled loose while on the road, causing the one remaining hinge to snap
12) Replace burner assembly for oven
13) Replace ignitor knob for stovetop
14) Tighten soap dispenser because the factory didn't
15) Replace mounting rail for sliding door to the bedroom because the factory left out a screw causing it to have insufficient support, leading to breakage.
16) Remove rear end cap panels and scrape out foam insulation, factory used too much to the point where the wall had bowed out and the window wouldn't close properly
17) Replace one fluorescent light fixture, bad ballast
18) Install a missing screw in the bathroom cabinetry
19) Loose charge line wire at the circuit breaker, nut not torqued properly
20) Plumbing leak under kitchen sink

The only reason this is in any way unusual is that many owners don't camp much in their trailers so they don't notice this stuff or they figure it's just part of RVing.

I see the industry as being where Detroit was in the late 1970s when the auto industry got its collective clock cleaned by Toyota and Honda.

 

[Howard Kelly]

The question is... who is out there to clean the clocks
these mobile homes take a beating on the road, but most just keep on rolling, with lots of little problems along the way.
keeps this retired guy occupied 
Howard

 

[Bob Maxwell]

The Europeans are producing quality coaches, all diesels, smaller, well designed with good quality control. We'll learn or we'll see an influx of quality RVs from overseas like we did automobiles.

 

[seilerbird]

I really don't think the RV industry has a quality problem. I think it is you who has the problem. I think your expectations are way too high. The modern RV has dozens and dozens of systems and it is almost impossible to test every one under every single condition. For example, the 110 volt systems would all have to be thoroughly tested under shore power, the generator and the inverter.

Most of the items on your list appear to be problems that occurred after you took delivery. Driving the RV down the highway causes a lot of vibrations and the weak links will always be discovered. Do you want the QC to take a new rig out and drive it a few hundred miles to find all those little defects before they deliver it? Very expensive idea.

When I was an electrician my boss got a complain about my sloppy workmanship. He didn't believe it for a second because he knew I was a perfectionist and the last thing you could use to describe my work was sloppy. So he went out to see the problem. Turns out in the garage he had a workbench installed (this was a custom house) and above the workbench he had several outlets for 110 and phone. One of the outlets was about 1/4 of an inch higher than the others. Now only one person in a thousand would notice something like that and maybe one in a million would complain, but he thought I was sloppy. Point being, what is sloppy QC to you is not necessarily sloppy QC to everyone else.

Your list has 20 items on it. I fix that many things in my RV every few months. Constant use and driving your RV around means things are going to break. Either get use to is or get a new hobby.

Here is a list of Canadian RV manufacturers. Next time you buy an RV buy a Canadian one and see if their QC is any better.

http://www.crva.ca/manufac.htm

 

[Rugtudju]

I read the same comments years ago about the Japanese car.
There are no reasons why something is not properly design right from the beginning.
Quality control and after sale service are of the utmost importance.
I always bought US cars until I got a run from a GM dealer.
Now I drive a Japanese car. If European and Japanese had as big MH as the ones manufacture in North America, there would be a major problem.
Why people to have to wait until people find another solution,here the question.
If something is faulty, there are a quality problem or a faulty design.
My 2 cents opinion

 

[Wolf Pack Fan]

Wow Seilerbird!  Pretty bold statement there sir.  You say you were a perfectionist, but you installed an outlet that was a quarter of an inch off from the others.  I guess I'm one of those 1 in a 1000 people.  I would have complained too.  The "THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH" attitude and IMHO, unions, are why the Japanese are kicking our tails in the automotive industry and Toyota is now the largest car manufacturer in the world.  Perfectionism, is doing it PERFECT.
 

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I really don't think the RV industry has a quality problem. I think it is you who has the problem. I think your expectations are way too high. The modern RV has dozens and dozens of systems and it is almost impossible to test every one under every single condition. For example, the 110 volt systems would all have to be thoroughly tested under shore power, the generator and the inverter.

Most of the items on your list appear to be problems that occurred after you took delivery. Driving the RV down the highway causes a lot of vibrations and the weak links will always be discovered. Do you want the QC to take a new rig out and drive it a few hundred miles to find all those little defects before they deliver it? Very expensive idea.

When I was an electrician my boss got a complain about my sloppy workmanship. He didn't believe it for a second because he knew I was a perfectionist and the last thing you could use to describe my work was sloppy. So he went out to see the problem. Turns out in the garage he had a workbench installed (this was a custom house) and above the workbench he had several outlets for 110 and phone. One of the outlets was about 1/4 of an inch higher than the others. Now only one person in a thousand would notice something like that and maybe one in a million would complain, but he thought I was sloppy. Point being, what is sloppy QC to you is not necessarily sloppy QC to everyone else.

Your list has 20 items on it. I fix that many things in my RV every few months. Constant use and driving your RV around means things are going to break. Either get use to is or get a new hobby.

Here is a list of Canadian RV manufacturers. Next time you buy an RV buy a Canadian one and see if their QC is any better.

http://www.crva.ca/manufac.htm

I agree with Wolf Pack Fan. Unless there were a half dozen or more feet between the outlets (and maybe even then, especially if the outlets were close enough to the workbench to make comparing them easier), I also would have complained. How hard is it to measure something to ensure it gets installed in the correct place? A quarter of an inch is a pretty sloppy tolerance. But then, it wouldn't have happened to me because I would have done the work myself to begin with. At least I can afford to take the time to do something right (especially since I detest doing anything over).

Since you compared the RV industry to the auto motive industry, when was the last time you bought a new vehicle that never left the lot because things were poorly installed or major systems didn't work? All three of the new vehicles I have owned worked perfectly right off the lot. Nothing was falling off or had to be reinstalled or repaired before I could take possession. I didn't have to have any warranty work done until long after I got them (only one vehicle repair was done under the original warranty, the second vehicle's repair was done on the extended warranty, and the third never needed warranty work). I've never had a factory tire fail yet I'm constantly reading about RV tires blowing, often shortly after getting the RV.

I'm constantly reading about  people finding loose cabinets or even cabinets and drawers falling apart, loose panels, outlets interfering with sofa placement when moving it an inch would have prevented it, construction debris and even food wrappers left under cabinets, etc., misaligned doors, etc., windows leaking or won't cles properly, crooked outlets and wall switches, all due to shoddy construction practices and are usually evident during the PDI. Sure, the dealer can fix most of that but wouldn't it be more cost effective to get it right the first time? Keep in mind the dealer has to get paid for the extra work and guess who ultimately pays for it?

Often, even the actual designs are shoddy. The TT I'm planning on buying has two outlets over the kitchen counter. One is a surface mount GFCI at one end of the four foot long counter, the other is a modular outlet installed flush in the wall at the other end. The modular outlet is three inches higher than than the GFCI which is extremely obvious because of the border strip under them (I've seen this both in the TT I looked at and in photos I've seen online). How difficult would it have been for them to have designed the kitchen to have the outlets at the same height? For that matter, why didn't they design the wall about an inch or so thicker so there would have been room to flush mount the GFCI? There is plenty of room to do so.

Roof and window leaks are common, often within months or even weeks after delivery. We can put men on the moon but can't design RV roofs and windows that won't leak? Can't make double pane windows that won't fog up? Frame cracking is common on fifth wheels. How often do you hear about that on autos and trucks? Automobiles and trucks are far more complex than RVs yet they hold up far better.

I feel the complaints are valid. And not only are RVs generally poorly built, they are getting worse each year, not better.

 

[tallyo]

Not sure it is fair to compare auto manufacturing to RV manufacturing. After assembly lines very little in common. Robots are not used anywhere to the same degree. Autos are made with the same models on the same lines. Autos have no where near the systems that RV's have. If you think about a MH it has basically the same systems a car has then add all the household items. RV industry relies on many more suppliers than autos. The cost of the average auto is so much less than RV's. Think about the weight factors, in that RV's have to be far more weight conscious than autos even with CAFE standards. My household items in my home break down with similar regularity as the MH.

Oh well, even though I have had repairs on 3 MH's I still plan to RV for many more years.

 

[Jeff]

We have owned 5 motor homes over the past 35 years and my self reminder is that if you don't like to putter don't own an RV.


Quality is a function of the manufacturer's fit in the marketplace. It is hard to expect an OEM to put out a 38' RV for up to 100k less than a competitor and not see lower quality materials and processes. Some of these OEMs have been quite successful financially because they seem to meet the needs of a lot of customers even though their products are condsidred "Entry-Level" or are always low on the recommended list of experienced RVers.


Other well-recognized nameplates have been through reorganization, location and employee changes, and are living on past product reputation, not current reality.


All that said we have owned four different brands and have had the greatest memories of raising our family and retirement enjoying the RV lifestyle.

 

[jje1960]

I really don't think the RV industry has a quality problem. I think it is you who has the problem.....

You get bit by a condor or something this morning??  Awfully grumpy....

 

[Rugtudju]

I am very surprised of a comment like "they are low quality because they are cheap"
This is certainly not a good reason.
The general comment still apply "what has to be done has to be done well"
I bought a few years ago a 1 ton truck for my Fifthwheel. A lemon. I had the same ride all the times,  "you are theonly one that has this problem.... After $28,000 of repair, they took it back.
You buy a 10 years old TT you expect or should expect wear problems, you buy a brand new one, should be inspected and "clean" properly before they leave the dealer premises.
I feel that one major expectation from the dealer is that since the customer is so far away, he will fix it himself without bothering me.........
The weight or gadgets are irrelevant on the quality of a motorhome. The same rule should apply on airplane. You don't pick up the cheapest bidder, you pick up the best quality applications you have.

 

[scottydl]

Automobiles and trucks are far more complex than RVs yet they hold up far better.

I can't possibly agree with the underlined part above... in fact it's just the opposite.  My motorhome has an engine/transmission/6 tires always pushed to their max, more storage than any standard truck or van, a refrigerator/sleeper couch/shower/toilet, space for a half dozen people, and tanks to supply and hold waste for all of the above.  Not to mention the other hundred bells and whistles.  Put all that on an assembly line and there are going to be some loose ends.  Automobiles and trucks are much smaller, have far fewer "options" to contend with, and are on much more standardized chassis/body systems when moving through the build process.

We have owned 5 motor homes over the past 35 years and my self reminder is that if you don't like to putter don't own an RV.

There's some experience talking... not saying you're old or anything! 

All that said we have owned four different brands and have had the greatest memories of raising our family and retirement enjoying the RV lifestyle.

x2 and I'm still well within the "raising our family" phase.  I can't imagine doing any other leisure/vacation activity our last few years that would have been nearly as adventurous and gratifying, and I know that trend will continue.  Even if my RV has a few squeaks and rattles (which it certainly does).

 

[PatrioticStabilist]

We just bought our 3rd new American made vehicle.  On our 2001 I had no warranty work done, we did need some work on things at 100,000 miles.  We change fluids, filters, and maintained it.  Sold it at 140000 miles, used no oil.  We just needed a different kind of vehicle for our needs.

I have a 2006 Lincoln truck, only item was warranty for a windshield wiper, it has never been in the shop.  I am going to order a new drivers bottom seat cover, because sliding in and out has worn the edge so I want it to look nice. 

We bought a used Saturn 2006 had 60k or so miles on it.  I have replaced a battery and it wasn't running right so took it in.  It needed a new gas cap!  It now has about 78000 on it. 

We expect good service from our new Chevy truck too.  I hear all these complaints about American made and I wonder how people drive them and if they maintain them.  We have always had American made cars and trucks and until the last 15 years they are used as we couldn't afford new. 

I can see a tremendous difference in the quality of the new motorhomes compared to the old.  We bought this old American Eagle, of course there are things we will have to fix the thing is 20 years old.  We just put the liquid rubber on the roof but it had never had anything done to it but caulking around brittle old skylights.  There was alligatoring on the front probably fourth of it, but what do you expect after that many years.  I think with this application the bus will go a lot more years.  There is actually less rust on it then the newer one, but then it was all undercoated too and a very expensive motorhome in its day.

I had a newer one and we did fine with it but it was just a whole different animal.  But I can see where people want more and more sophisticated systems on these motorhomes and I would think one with all these slides would present a lot of problems in all the systems that have to work while trying to keep the weight down.  A lot of technical challenges while trying to keep it affordable.  However, I do tend to agree that it looks like the testing of those systems could run an extra day or two and fix a lot of items. 

We just bought a 2007 5th wheel to rent out and to say its construction is cheap is putting it mildly.  I do think it will get to the point of a backlash and they will start doing quality work on units again or lose market share to some other country.  That will likely pull them back into line.

 

[Fastcar]

I really don't think the RV industry has a quality problem. I think it is you who has the problem. I think your expectations are way too high. The modern RV has dozens and dozens of systems and it is almost impossible to test every one under every single condition. For example, the 110 volt systems would all have to be thoroughly tested under shore power, the generator and the inverter.

Most of the items on your list appear to be problems that occurred after you took delivery. Driving the RV down the highway causes a lot of vibrations and the weak links will always be discovered. Do you want the QC to take a new rig out and drive it a few hundred miles to find all those little defects before they deliver it? Very expensive idea.

When I was an electrician my boss got a complain about my sloppy workmanship. He didn't believe it for a second because he knew I was a perfectionist and the last thing you could use to describe my work was sloppy. So he went out to see the problem. Turns out in the garage he had a workbench installed (this was a custom house) and above the workbench he had several outlets for 110 and phone. One of the outlets was about 1/4 of an inch higher than the others. Now only one person in a thousand would notice something like that and maybe one in a million would complain, but he thought I was sloppy. Point being, what is sloppy QC to you is not necessarily sloppy QC to everyone else.

Your list has 20 items on it. I fix that many things in my RV every few months. Constant use and driving your RV around means things are going to break. Either get use to is or get a new hobby.

Here is a list of Canadian RV manufacturers. Next time you buy an RV buy a Canadian one and see if their QC is any better.

http://www.crva.ca/manufac.htm

No, you are the problem!!

You and the rest of us who continue to pay for and accept shoddy, half ass assembled RV's. I had a list on my new Fleetwood that would choke a horse. My selling dealer, Lazy Days, jerked me around with more half fixed repairs and excuses that I ended up returning it to the factory (a 2 thousand mile round trip). There a crew of up to six to eight techs spent 3 1/2  7 hour day's fixing stuff that should have been repaired during the assembly or caught during final quality control.

The lot outside the factory was packed with RV's for similar repairs. That imo is crazy!

You constantly read folks telling other folks that they should buy used so the OO will go through the nightmare of straightening the coach out.

The idea that is being foisted that ithat a RV is sooo complicated and that is why stuff fails is so much BS. It is the intial assembly that is a horror show. Failure become less and less as the owner fix's stuff. Does the RV become less complicated and prone to failure as it ages? I think not.

My Corvette picked up a rear end whine. Did I have to return it to Bowling Green where it was made? No, I took it to the dealer and they ordered the part, flew it in and two day's all is good.

As long we as consumers continue to play this game with the RV builders they have no real incentive to change. Money in this case surely talks.

Admittedly some builder are better that others. But as whole the industry mindset won't change unless we do.

 

[Tin man]

I don't think about quality, when I get on a airplane, I expect it.  The guy who packs the chute knows that the person who uses that silk only get one shot.  When I worked as a controller, I expected no demanded quality work.  There is no excuse for inferior workmanship.  It all comes down to the bottom line.

So if you are willing to except or perform second rate work/construction be ready to except the consequences.

God I sound like my father!!

 

[Motor]

After working on all these things ( motorhomes, TT, 5th wh. , hardtops, park models, and for last 4 or 5 years mostly 12 wides, and park models ) for over 15-16 years I will add this to comments. When I get digging into any of them for rebuilding, repairs, etc, I just shake my head at the fact that you are guaranteed that somewhere on that assembly line there is at least one or 2 people who have no conscientious traits at all.  The stuff I see daily makes me wonder where all the work ethics in these factories has gone. Then they wonder why they go under !
When I started back in 95' the market was really taking off, so we ended up with New units that were obviously pushed through at an unreal pace at factory to try and keep up with orders, which obviously takes it's toll on quality as things get overlooked and ignored just to get it out the door. ( screw it, they can fix that at the dealer)
Then came a whole new bunch of, thought they could do it better and cheaper, manufacturers. Suddenly the majority of the buyers switched from paying the extra for a proven quality unit, to cheaper, new unproven manufactured units. That left the ones who worked hard to put out a quality product all those years with a decision to make. Either cut some corner's, or be out of business. When you cut corners, you use cheaper, smaller and weaker, and less reliable parts. What used to be 2x4 studs are now 2x3 if your lucky, but a lot of 2x2's now and latest I seen was a stud in bedroom that was supposed to have shower enclosure attached to it on opposite side measured 3/4" x 3" and every screw that was supposed to be in the narrow stud for support of shower enclosure was at least an inch off, all that was holding enclosure on wall was the adhesive between wall panel and enclosure frame. Got to admit it though, the graphics on the outside makes these units look real nice. Got 5 more like them in the park, and all have basically all the same problems. 3 owners bailed out after one year and traded them on different manufacturer. Seen windshields shatter on way from factory to our dealership, on a $750,000 motorhome, and 2 more times soon after, before it went back to factory to have front cap removed and everything re-aligned . The list goes on, regarding things that should have been noticed, or obviously re-designed, that never were. Just pay the claim for us to fix it later, that way their production line stays on schedule. Then they need to build them lighter so more people can tow them with current vehicles they own, thus lighter, less strength in all the framing, and where they always used to go overkill on strength just in case, now build it to minimum strength required, Like houses built to minimum code.
My guess is that anyone on the production line now, who was conscientious and took great pride in doing it right when they started, soon had to change their way of thinking if they wanted to keep their job.  I guess the beancounters looking at the profit margins know better than the guys that actually have to repair them.  Same as cars I guess, if we build them to last, we'll be out of work/business in 10-20 years down the road. I'd really like to think that if someone built an RV, to last, and stood behind it 100%, people would actually pay the extra to own one, and maybe trade it in every 5 or 10 years to keep the place open.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I can't possibly agree with the underlined part above... in fact it's just the opposite.  My motorhome has an engine/transmission/6 tires always pushed to their max, more storage than any standard truck or van, a refrigerator/sleeper couch/shower/toilet, space for a half dozen people, and tanks to supply and hold waste for all of the above.  Not to mention the other hundred bells and whistles.  Put all that on an assembly line and there are going to be some loose ends.  Automobiles and trucks are much smaller, have far fewer "options" to contend with, and are on much more standardized chassis/body systems when moving through the build process...

I will agree with you with motorhomes since they are self propelled but the systems in TTs, 5ers, and THs are nowhere nearly as complicated as the engines, transmissions, drivetrains, suspensions, etc. in an automobile or truck. The engine alone is more complicated than everything else in an RV (other than a motorhome but, then again, it has an engine, etc.). Yet the automobiles normally can go a lot farther and faster than RVs with fewer problems and maintenance.

 

[Jeff]

Jeannie:


We have very little problems with the Freightliner chassis, Cat engine, and Allison transmission in our Tradewinds. The vast majority of failures for us are in the components used to build the box, or the chassis components moved or supplied by the RV manufacturer.

 

[Jammer]

Thanks for all the responses.  Seilerbird, I'd like to thank you for your insightful post by awarding you an AMC Pacer of your very own.  You will be sentenced, er, expected, to drive it every day.  ;D ;D ;D

I think the RV industry lacks a quality culture at all levels, dealer, manufacturer, management, engineer, line worker.  To Motor's point, I too have seen all kinds of screws that have missed the stud or shelf or whatever it was they were supposed to go into.  That's easy to fix on the line -- make a template and use it.  I've seen overdriven screws, well, it's a simple and inexpensive matter to have production equipment that places the screws exactly on a calibrated basis by torque or depth or whatever.  The insulation problem I had?  Well they could have used foam dispensing equipment that delivers a measured amount of foam rather than letting the worker guess at it.

It takes a little engineering to set that sort of thing up but the recurring costs are negligible.

The cabinetry in my trailer was pretty clearly made by fully automated equipment.  A robot, if you will.  The wood pieces are cut with amazing precision.  There are some other bright spots, the blinds, curtains and upholstery are all well made. 

 

[browne07]

I kind of agree with Jammer on the quality control. Two new 5th wheel toy haulers in the last two years and I have spent a great amount of time fixing stuff that should have been right the first. A lot easier than bringing it back.