Towbar confusion?

[Ned]

You are correct in the setting of the sensitivity, but the application pressure is also adjustable.

Blue Ox doesn't use the word "proportional" in their description of the Apollo.

 

[rsalhus]

You are correct in the setting of the sensitivity, but the application pressure is also adjustable.

The application pressure setting is more or less an adjustment for the weight of the vehicle.  The Apollo Braking System is designed to apply the brakes full force every time the toad brakes are applied.  It may take a little more pressure or a little less pressure to do that based on the weight of the toad, and that's what that setting is for.

Blue Ox doesn't use the word "proportional" in their description of the Apollo.

Blue Ox is pretty careful when using the term "proportional" (it's mentioned in some of their other products).  But Brake Buddy is not.

 

[Ned]

Right, you set the pressure for the weight of the vehicle so the brakes are applied fully each time.  If the pressure is adjusted too low, the brakes won't be fully applied.

 

[Mark R.]

Hi Rolf, hope all is well!  I call it a dummy unit because it can not compensate for different situations, and it can not be activated or adjusted from the cab,  if you stop gently it applies the same amount of power to the brakes as if you made a panic stop (non proportional), proportional brake controllers sense how fast the coach is slowing and adjusts the amount of braking on the toad to closely mimic that deceleration rate (proportional). I for one do not want my brakes slammed on every time I hit the brakes. The Apollo unit uses a switch that turns on or off based on deceleration of the coach, equivalent to a metal ball rolling forward shorting two wires together "DUMB". Don't get me wrong Rolf I think other things are dumb too, such as time/ power brake controllers "JUNK" I think they should be illegal! 

 

[Alaskansnowbirds]

.....I could have reached down and dialed down the gain on my Prodigy.....

Mark,

It's my understanding that a Prodigy controller is for electric brakes. If this is correct, how does an electric brake controller apply the brakes on a toad with a hydraulic brake system?

 

[rsalhus]

Mark, all is swell here, hope you're doing the same. 

I do not want my brakes slammed on every time I hit the brakes in our MH either.  And that doesn't have to happen with the Apollo Braking System either if you have the sensitivity setting set to how you want it.  Like Ned said, he only wants the toad brakes to come on for panic stops.  So he sets the sensitivity setting accordingly.  Now this setting is not simply a matter of setting it to the panic stop setting (there is no such setting), and it takes some trial and error to get it where you want it.  I'm still trying to find the best setting for our system so I change our setting occasionally when I think it needs it.

Another thing, I fail to see why it's important to adjust or turn the toad brakes on or off remotely from the MH.  You won't have time to do that in an emergency stop situation anyway (I read where you found that out empirically).  ;D ;D 

But I do believe that a truly proportional system would be the best way to go.  But that would by definition  be a 'dumb' system.  Like you said, all it does is mimic or duplicate the braking of the MH, no real computing is necessary.

 

[Mark R.]

Thanks for reminding me Rolf , I vacationed for a couple of weeks and did not use my brain for the whole time ,I guess it was still in the off position (my brain) when I stopped.

Don yes the Prodigy is for control of electric brakes, but all controllers put out a voltage signal of 0-14 volts , some proportionately such as the prodigy and others by time and some are tapped into the tow vehicles brakes system. OK in most cases that signal goes to the electric magnets in the brake assem. on a trailer, in my case the voltage goes to a BRAKERITE unit. mounted under the hood of my car (toad), this unit is a 12 volt powered master cylinder. This is how it works, the brake unit gets a signal from MH that the brake lights are on, this turns on the the units pump, now as the MH starts to decelerate, the unit receives the voltage from the brake controller (0-14) which causes the brake unit to apply hydraulic pressure to the toads brake system, thus appliing the brakes , higher the voltage the higher the pressure and the faster you stop! To use my system I simply plug regular plug into MH and rotate a small valve under hood, that takes seconds.The system works great as long as you have your Prodigy set properly, as Rolf reminded me about in his last post.

http://www.trailerpart.com/brakerite.htm

 

[Alaskansnowbirds]

.....I like to be able to apply the brakes on my trailers (and I consider my toad a trailer if I am pulling it) for a host of reasons , such as going down hill its nice to be able to add some braking at times.....

Why do you want to have the toad brakes slow down the motorhome?

and if I have a tow vehicle brake failure I have a backup when I need it most.

Unless you're only going 10 to 15 MPH the motor home will not even know that toad with it's locked brakes is even back there.

As far as not using the toad brakes , you pay to stop either way, brake pad usage will be increased on MH if not on toad (no free stops).

I use my exhaust brake 80 to 85% of the time so my motor home service brakes are very seldom used above 20 to 25 MPH.

I'm with Ned. The only time I need the toad brakes to be applied is when I want everything locked up.

 

[Mark R.]

Well I guess it comes down to personal preferences,

I will quote myself!

I own and use 7 trailers, I tow these with several tow vehicles, proportional braking is the way to go in my opinion, I tow year round in upstate NY, I need to apply my trailer brakes and control them from my tow vehicle for all the reasons I listed in previous post. and its the law in NY.

Ron you asked me how a Prodigy can be used with a toad, I explained.

I did not say I wanted my toad to slow down my MH, but it will need be.

 

[Alaskansnowbirds]

Ron you asked me how a Prodigy can be used with a toad, I explained.

Mark,

Could you direct me to that message. I can't find it.

I'm not questioning what you're doing, I just don't understand how a controller for electric brakes can control a hydraulic brake system.

Thank you

 

[Mark R.]

Ron on my computer my answer is in post #46 in this thread.

Don yes the Prodigy is for control of electric brakes, but all controllers put out a voltage signal of 0-14 volts , some proportionately such as the prodigy and others by time and some are tapped into the tow vehicles brakes system. OK in most cases that signal goes to the electric magnets in the brake assem. on a trailer, in my case the voltage goes to a BRAKERITE unit. mounted under the hood of my car (toad), this unit is a 12 volt powered master cylinder. This is how it works, the brake unit gets a signal from MH that the brake lights are on, this turns on the the units pump, now as the MH starts to decelerate, the unit receives the voltage from the brake controller (0-14) which causes the brake unit to apply hydraulic pressure to the toads brake system, thus appliing the brakes , higher the voltage the higher the pressure and the faster you stop! To use my system I simply plug regular plug into MH and rotate a small valve under hood, that takes seconds.The system works great as long as you have your Prodigy set properly, as Rolf reminded me about in his last post.

http://www.trailerpart.com/brakerite.htm

 

[John From Detroit]

Mark,

It's my understanding that a Prodigy controller is for electric brakes. If this is correct, how does an electric brake controller apply the brakes on a toad with a hydraulic brake system?

Yes, the Prodgy is for electric brakes

That said, I do not know if it is compatable with the brake system on my towed or not.. You see, they are electric (Electric over hydraulic) brakes

I press the pedal in the MH, and the matching (in my case) controller sends a signal to the brake controller in the towed which then engages an electromagneic solenoid which operates the vehicle's regular hydraulic brakes.

(NOTE: I said above I"m not sure.. I do not believe they are compatible, but I'm not sure)

 

[Mark R.]

John you are describing my system, I do not know of any unique brake controllers, they all send a 0-14 volt signal as required if the unit is proportional, if controller is a time/power model it sends the same voltage, but  based on how long you are on the brakes and what the owner set as  max output voltage (junk).


From a brakeRite spec sheet.
BrakeRite Electric / Hydraulic Disc Actuator #4813100

Electric over Hydraulic Disc brake actuator is compatible with all vehicle electric connectors and works with all in-cab controllers.

 

[John From Detroit]

Well.. As I said, the power unit in my rig is US-Gear... I do suspect it might be compatible, but I"m not sure.  The US-Gear controller does work very well by the way, Purportional, Progressive and gives good feedback to the driver.. That's about the best you can ask for

 

[Mark R.]

John I looked at your system on line, lots of parts but as you say it works well and is a proportional, smart system. The only issue for me would be that I tow my toad, which is a antique car, with several different tow vehicle's during the course of the year and this system uses unique tow connections, for most people in your situation using the same tow vehicle this does not pose a problem..

 

[Alaskansnowbirds]

Ron on my computer my answer is in post #46 in this thread.

Don yes the Prodigy is for control of electric brakes, but all controllers put out a voltage signal of 0-14 volts , some proportionately such as the prodigy and others by time and some are tapped into the tow vehicles brakes system. OK in most cases that signal goes to the electric magnets in the brake assem. on a trailer, in my case the voltage goes to a BRAKERITE unit. mounted under the hood of my car (toad), this unit is a 12 volt powered master cylinder. This is how it works, the brake unit gets a signal from MH that the brake lights are on, this turns on the the units pump, now as the MH starts to decelerate, the unit receives the voltage from the brake controller (0-14) which causes the brake unit to apply hydraulic pressure to the toads brake system, thus appliing the brakes , higher the voltage the higher the pressure and the faster you stop! To use my system I simply plug regular plug into MH and rotate a small valve under hood, that takes seconds.The system works great as long as you have your Prodigy set properly, as Rolf reminded me about in his last post.

http://www.trailerpart.com/brakerite.htm

Thanks Mark, I had never heard of the Brakerite system.

 

[Mark R.]

Don I had never heard about this unit either , then about 4 years ago I was talking to someone who had a system like this  on his boat trailer, he said it was a great system but said if he were to do it again he would have bought the Brakerite unit instead of the brand he bought. The conversion on a trailer to this system is easy but expensive, you replace the drum assm. with disc brake assm, run hydraulic lines from disc units to the brakerite unit, just one connection. The unit needs no special harnesses from tow car so you can plug into any tow car / MH with any controller and go. Disc brakes have several benefits over drums, which would explain why most cars are now equipped with all disc brakes now, it has been the better part of 40 years since a car has had drums on the front and for good reason.

I spoke to Brakeright when I installed the unit in my Ford wagon, they said 90 percent of the units were installed on high end commercial trailers and the balance on heavy boat and fifth wheel rv trailers. I was told the discs are great in the mountains as thy do not suffer from brake fade as drums tend to do. They have units for drums and disc brakes, only difference is the pressure the units put out. If you have surge brakes on a trailer (disc or drum) you can just install this unit and you have cab control and proportional braking .

 

[taoshum]

see this post:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/23206839.cfm