What are the disadvantages of lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries?

[Lucas Milli]

In addition to the price, what are the disadvantages of lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries?

If the price of lifepo4 comes down, will no one buy the lead-acid battery?

 

[John From Detroit]

I am not sure there are any disadvantages other than price.. Bit fussy about charging but that's easily dealt with these days (the batteries often have attached charge controllers to make sure they are properly fed)

One problem is the lack of raw materials here in the US.. As I understand it the raw materials all come from Russia and China.

 

[SLOweather]

The only other one I can think of is cold weather operation, which can be mitigated by mounting inside, insulation, heating, etc

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

General fussiness, I think. As problematic as lead-acid batteries can be, LiFePO4 is much more so.  Needs very careful charge and discharge management (usually provided by the a built-in battery manager), very sensitive to temperature extremes (particularly cold), and a not as physically robust as lead-acid, and a more serious fire hazard (lithium is nasty stuff!).

There is a related aging factor, i.e. failure to maintain optimal conditions will severely shorten the life of these expensive batteries.  The same can be said of lead acid (LA) batteries, but LA operating requirements are much less critical and thus more tolerant of consumer use or abuse.  And replacing a LA battery is much less costly.

I don't see LiFePO4 totally replacing lead-acid for many years, if ever.  If nothing else, LA batteries have an inherent 30% lower cost factor (based on metal prices and construction), so will probably always have economics in their favor.  An LA battery does a fine job of meeting a car's battery needs for 5-7 years and lithium probably doesn't last much if any longer, so the choice comes down to cost advantage of LA vs the weight advantage of L-ion.

A CAUTION ON RESEARCH: When reading online articles about pros or cons of lithium, be aware that most such articles deal with the whole spectrum of lithium-based batteries (there are 6 types) and not specifically the LiFePO4 type that is packaged as a 12v plug-in replacement.  Further, most of the available data deals with the use in electronics (computers and phones) or the highly customized packs in electric vehicles.  The LiFePO4 12v in your RV is a somewhat different animal than the lithium cobalt that probably powers your phone.  They are similar in general ways, but the specifics differ.

 

[FunSteak]

As we really don't have a good way to add more batteries due to space constraints, I've been watching the lithium technology for RVs with some interest.  Aside from the charging profiles being critical, to me the biggest hurdle is that they don't like cold at all.  My understanding is that they will not charge properly if too cold, and could be damaged as well. 

I saw on the RV Geeks YT channel that they installed a set that are enclosed and insulated, with built-in heating for cold weather.  That seems like a pretty reasonable solution, but those babies are NOT cheap.

I'm waiting for tech to advance and prices to fall before leaping in. 

 

[Larry N.]

with built-in heating for cold weather.

Which means you'd better be plugged in most of the time, since that is a self drain of the battery.

 

[FunSteak]

Which means you'd better be plugged in most of the time, since that is a self drain of the battery.

Been a bit since I watched that video.  I think it's self-powered, and I'm not sure how much juice it draws.  With the big jump in amp hours, it's probably not that bad, but I'm no expert.

 

[Lou Schneider]

Which means you'd better be plugged in most of the time, since that is a self drain of the battery.

Put the batteries in an enclosed insulated box and they won't need much heat at all.  People keep an entire wet bay from freezing using a 60-100 watt light bulb, you'll probably need less than a tenth of that to keep a sealed box above freezing.

 

[FunSteak]

Put the batteries in an enclosed insulated box and they won't need much heat at all.  People keep an entire wet bay from freezing using a 60-100 watt light bulb, you'll probably need less than a tenth of that to keep a sealed box above freezing.

Good point.

I went and found the RV Geeks videos I referred to.  It's a five part series on their upgrade to a LiFePO4 house battery system.  They used a Xantrex product that has a self-heating feature.  SIX HUNDRED amp hours, and 100 lbs lighter than the six AGMs they were previously using!  It's a very interesting series.  Here's the link to part 1, where they explain what they're doing and talk about the battery.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77mqMc30ceU

 

[LarsMac]

We went with AGM batteries for the Dancer. Both Chassis and House.

Lithium seems far too sensitive to Cold for my liking.

 

[Lucas Milli]

Seems the biggest problem with lithium iron phosphate batteries is that they are expensive and used in the cold season.

Are there any applications that do not need to consider low temperature (e.g. indoor solar energy storage), and using lifepo4 battery is the best choice?

 

[Larry N.]

The small OLPC (One Laptop Per Child) computer I picked up in 2007 has such a battery, but that's the only place I've knowingly encountered that battery type.

 

[rbertalotto]

How are electric cars dealing with the cold temperature issue?

 

[Dreamsend]

In my situation, there simply aren't any disadvantages -- but I planned ahead and made sure I had room for an interior installation in my TT, so temperatures are never a problem. They, along with the charge controller (which needs cooler temps) cables, etc. are in the bunk area which I remodeled.  They are completely out of sight, but easily accessible if necessary.  I've been using 600 AH of lithium PO4 for over a year (LifeBlue brand, drop ins) without incident.  (hope I don't jinx this by saying so).  All the charging and drawdown is handled automatically, never have to switch anything off or on.  I purchased and installed mine in 2018 when the 30% tax CREDIT for solar was in effect, so the cost was equivalent to LA batts.  This credit has decreased now due to . . well you know the answer, but I believe there still is some credit available. 

Lithium PO4 s are NOT the fire hazard that other lithium chemistries are.  The "thermal runaway" temp for lithium iron phosphate is 518 degrees Fahrenheit -- so a VERY safe battery in that regard.

You can find out everything about these batteries, including fire ratings at

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries
and
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

In these 2 articles, you can learn everything about all types of lithium batteries, and it's very interesting reading.  It's technical but well written and easily understood.

There are small footprint heat pads that can be placed under the batts to provide temperature control if necessary.  I would think this option would work just fine in Class A storage bays. But, you still need to keep the controller at lower temps.

Biggest advantage for me is NO maintenance.  No need to keep checking water levels, adding water, etc. etc.  As a single full time person, anything, within reason, that minimizes maintenance is a plus.

Linda 

 

[decaturbob]

the biggest drawback of lithium is operating temperature range. The internal temp of battery can not fall below 32deg as they will not be able to charge and if you do try to charge them, some negative things can happen.  So cold climate STORAGE and use needs to be carefully addressed.  As for heat, once you have temps over 110-120degs, use can degrade lifetime.

If you take the initial cost out, I would still consider going to lithium based on performance over any other battery. The cost is steep and can easily go over a couple thousand $$$$ between batteries and charge/converter system.  Of course even more if we are talking solar.

 

[X-Roughneck]

One thing to think about which I did not see mentioned in this thread.  In my instance with my Class C, Winnebago Aspect 30J, the two coach (house) batteries "share" 4K generator cranking duty.  I saw a video with the COO of Battle Born Batteries was talking about his product.  The battle Born do not have Cold Cranking Amp capacity and are not designed to start engines.  Now I am guessing I could possible crank off the V10 Ford batt using the "battery Boost" feature, but I am unsure about this.  I would hate to have 2 x $1000 in replacements dropped in and come to find out I have a issue cranking the onboard generator set. Would be interested in what Gary/Wizard and anyone with real experience had to say about this. 

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

The first question would be what is the cranking amp requirement of the genset?  It's not a large engine, so seems doubtful that it is very high. And how cold will it be when you crank it? 

CCA refers to the number of amps a 12-volt battery can deliver at 0?F for 30 seconds while maintaining a voltage of at least 7.2 volts.  For most RVers, MCA is probably more relevant for starting a generator. MCA is measured at 32 F rather than 0 F.  Some batteries will have an MCA rating but no CCA rating, e.g. those intended for marine use.


As is mentioned previously, LiFePO4 batteries are not good performers at low temperatures, so likely would have a low CCA rating and a modest MCA rating. But generators aren't typically hard to crank either.
I've seen commentary that says an Onan may need 300-350 cranking amps, but haven't found anything official about that. Check the manual for your model.

 

[Gizmo]

The only disadvantage I have found is price.  Initially I thought cold weather at or below 32 degrees would be a disadvantage and it sure could be, but my experience I have taken steps to address the temperature concern.  When I installed my batteries in the front storage compartment of my 5th wheel, I also placed a temperature sensor from my weather station, I carry a portable electric heater for when we are plugged in and a 60 watt work light I can run off my inverter when boondocking.  So far I have not needed either one even though over night temperatures have been as low as 24 degrees, because it seems the heat from the furnace in the basement area provides enough heat transfer to keep temps in the front compartment over 45-degrees.  While each rig will be different, the freezing temperature concern can be addressed.

 

[garyb1st]

One problem is the lack of raw materials here in the US.. As I understand it the raw materials all come from Russia and China.

While I don't this this is true, if Russia and China were major players, I would think this would be a significant downside.  Especially in the day of pingpong tariffs. 

 

[Kevin Means]

Yeah, their temperature range is what limits us. I think it might be a lot easier in some RVs than others to find a place to store them. In 2011, Winnie started putting the house batteries between the frame rails, beneath the basement floor and they're totally exposed to the open air. I'd have to enclose that compartment, then open it up to the basement area above it, because the basement is heated. All doable, but quite a project. I'm still trying to justify it, because LI is so well suited for RVing.

Kev