Workhorse Brake Recall

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Since it is known that contaminated brake fluid causes the piston to swell, clean fluid should not cause any piston swelling.  My 45K miles with fluid flush every two years seems to prove to me that clean fluid prevents the problem, Also, the fact that it took at least three years before the problem came to light would suggest that contaminated fluid is the cause.

The fact that NHTSA found that the piston swelled and Bosch is testing replacements for it should help point the way to maintaining the current calipers is a fluid flush.
 
miket said:
Since it is known that contaminated brake fluid causes the piston to swell, clean fluid should not cause any piston swelling.  My 45K miles with fluid flush every two years seems to prove to me that clean fluid prevents the problem, Also, the fact that it took at least three years before the problem came to light would suggest that contaminated fluid is the cause.

The fact that NHTSA found that the piston swelled and Bosch is testing replacements for it should help point the way to maintaining the current calipers is a fluid flush.
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I asked if you had any data that proved changing the fluid would prevent their brake problems before they start and a cure for workhorse brake problems once we have had a lockup?  Since you seem to report that changing the fluid is the cure all , then nhtsa and bosch needs to be notified to stop making calipers and just send out letters to all mh owners that are under recall to just change your fluid. We camp in a group that no one has ever changed their brake fluid and 2 of these mh's were mfg in the mid 90's. The only diff in their mh's compared to mine is theirs are fords. How would you answer my question about my second brake failure and FLUID CHANGE was followed about 4 weeks later with another failure. Hey new parts and clead fluid. I would say by now my fluid has been changed 4 or 5 times.  I will end with this. If you folks want to change your fluid  daily then go for it because its cheap and easy but dont let anyone from wh try to convince you that's its the cure all fix all. REmember these were the same guys and co that were fighting us tooth and nail and saying there wasnt a workhorse brake problem, just problems with the drivers. I guess workhorse got all the bad drivers and ford got all the good ones. IMO
 
Re-reading your post, that is not what you asked as far as after the fact failure. My statement is if you have not had a problem then more than likely changing the fluid will greatly diminish the possibility of having a problem verses not doing anything. There has not been any testing to verify this, but most of the failures seem to be on the East coast, in high humidity areas and a lack of use.

If you had new calipers installed and those failed, then I agree something is rotten in Denmark, as the saying goes. I'd save my paper work and submit or re-submit it to Workhorse.

Since Ford has switched from TRW calipers to Bosch on some chassis, how long before Ford has a problem? Workhorse has not had brake problems on the P series, the W16, W18, W24, and W25.5 that use other than Bosch calipers. I would suspect that owners of those chassis do not drive any different than the people with Bosch calipers.


As I posted, 45K, fluid change every two and no problems. I did the same maintenance on my 96 P30, flushing fluid and cleaning, lubing caliper slides.

Maybe it's something in my local New England area, but we've known for years about contaminated brake fluid and its ability to suck up moisture .
 
miket said:
if you have not had a problem then more than likely changing the fluid will greatly diminish the possibility of having a problem verses not doing anything. There has not been any testing to verify this, but most of the failures seem to be on the East coast, in high humidity areas and a lack of use.
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I think MikeT's statement here is VERY important, and I have changed my fluid last year at approx 18K miles, and I will this Spring at 25K.  

Nothing is for certain here....we all know the problem is with the pistons sticking due to expanding due to moisture intrusion, and the BEST WAY (at this time, the only way) to avoid a possible brake failure is to change the fluid.

I did buy some "Speedbleeders" to  install on my unit in the Spring, for future fluid changes.  If you would like info on these, PM me, as I am not interested in promoting his advertising on another site.

I think MikeT has given some good advise about this fluid changes, and while he might not be able to help with the re-imbursement issues some are having with Workhorse, at least he hasn't called those owners/forum members "Jerry Springer Fans"!   :eek:
 
How refreshing to find this site!

Miket, your approach to disseminating the info about the brake situation is great!  Thank You.  No sermons, no scolding, no accusations, thank you!

 
Thanks for the welcome fellas.

As you probably realize, I've been following this brake issue for quite some time and seldom post[RMS on irv-2] but,last October renewed my interest after my pedal went to the floor.  Fortunately I was inside our development and traveling at a speed where I could safely down-shift and creep to our house.

When I thought about the trip we had just completed from Glen NH to Florida and all the terrible situations that could have occurred, it was sobering.  Of course there was the financial end of getting my W-22 repaired and the thought of putting the same type calipers back on, which wasn't reassuring, to say the least.  Then I forgot to take pictures! How could I forget the pictures?

So I guess my point is---that it sure makes the drive from NH to Fl. a bit more stressful and I wish Workhorse had acknowledged their problem without being pushed by the Feds.  I don't know if anything would have been acknowledged without Rick and Cheryl, and JDSR.



 
I have a 2003 Adventurer on a W22 Chassis with 18,000 miles on it. Yesterday at the tail end of a 3000 miles trip I experienced total brake failure with no advanced warning. The brakes have worked flawlessly since new and up to the point of failure. The brake pedal went to the floor and no brakes until pumped. After cooling off, all was fine again. The temperature was about 90 degrees and I was in desert conditions. Although I was lucky to survive the incident without a negative outcome, this is an outrageously dangerous condition to have in an 8 ton vehicle and is totally unacceptable! ???
 
FrontrangeRVer said:
I think MikeT's statement here is VERY important, and I have changed my fluid last year at approx 18K miles, and I will this Spring at 25K.  

Nothing is for certain here....we all know the problem is with the pistons sticking due to expanding due to moisture intrusion, and the BEST WAY (at this time, the only way) to avoid a possible brake failure is to change the fluid.

I did buy some "Speedbleeders" to  install on my unit in the Spring, for future fluid changes.  If you would like info on these, PM me, as I am not interested in promoting his advertising on another site.

I think MikeT has given some good advise about this fluid changes, and while he might not be able to help with the re-imbursement issues some are having with Workhorse, at least he hasn't called those owners/forum members "Jerry Springer Fans"!   :eek:
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As far as the jerry comment, I hope he is talking about me because that means he is losing sleep over this. He lost and we the consumer won.
 
Total brake loss as described points to water in the brake fluid. As I and others have stated, flush the brake fluid. A 2003 with only 18 K miles certainly needs a flush. I also think your 8 tons may be a little light for a W22. I'm a W20 and run about 9 1/2 tons.

From the Interim letter,

Are there warning indicators that precede a brake failure?
  The defective brake calipers on certain motor home chassis may cause hot brakes, brake drag, overheating, melting of the anti-lock brake sensor, and in a small number of cases, boiling brake fluid, which may result in loss of brake function.

f.  The brake pedal feels mushy or goes to the floor -this is indicative that the brake fluid in the vehicle is possibly boiling and therefore the brake system losing its effectiveness.


You can have the fluid flushed any place that will do the work. Unfortunately, WH will not pay for a flush.



The consumer, We RVers have not won, no fix yet, compensation ?      ??? 
 
miket said:
Total brake loss as described points to water in the brake fluid. As I and others have stated, flush the brake fluid. A 2003 with only 18 K miles certainly needs a flush. I also think your 8 tons may be a little light for a W22. I'm a W20 and run about 9 1/2 tons.

From the Interim letter,

Are there warning indicators that precede a brake failure?
  The defective brake calipers on certain motor home chassis may cause hot brakes, brake drag, overheating, melting of the anti-lock brake sensor, and in a small number of cases, boiling brake fluid, which may result in loss of brake function.

f.   The brake pedal feels mushy or goes to the floor -this is indicative that the brake fluid in the vehicle is possibly boiling and therefore the brake system losing its effectiveness.


You can have the fluid flushed any place that will do the work. Unfortunately, WH will not pay for a flush.



The consumer, We RVers have not won, no fix yet, compensation ?      ???  
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Oh we won and we won big. This recall will have to be resolved. If we/you are waiting on reimbursement from wh dont hold your breath. If they are going to fight us on this brake problem then I wouldn't hold my breath on reimbursement. Thats just the kind of co they are IMO. We wouldn't have this recall if it wasn't for nhtsa. We tried to play nice and wh would have no part of it. I guess they figured the other amb could convince us its not a wh problem and we would let it go( and in some cases it worked).All they would say is we(workhorse) don't have a problem. BTW, the way I read the Interim letter is if we have had a problem(such as boiling brake fluid) change the fluid. I agree 100% but nowhere does it state that changing the fluid is the cause or cure for this wh brake problem. I would hate for someone to get a false sense of security thinking all they have to do is change the fluid and drive it like you stole it. :)
 
Last week I experienced total brake failure at 18,000 miles on a 2003 Winnebago 35U on a W22 Workhorse chassis. I purchased the coach in Ohio and drove it back to California. All was fine until 70 miles from home, I experienced the brake pedal going to the floor and no brakes. After pulling over, I did a walk around to find right rear wheel hot and smoke coming from brake. I let the unit cool down for 2 hours and everything came back to normal. I took the coach to Workhorse dealer and after inspection they said the computer read-out indicated that I was "riding the brakes" therefore no warranty (recall) coverage. Needless to say, I was not riding the brakes so I called Workhorse. They were very defensive, probably from dealing with a lot of upset customers, but acknowledged this vehicle was going to be part of the recall and what I had experienced, including the result of the inspection, was well documented and would be fixed once the actual recall was here. But, at this time they would not cover any of the cost for inspection, damage and or replacement of brake fluid although they said purging the brake system of old fluid "helps." They further told me that the recall "fix" that was scheduled for this fall has been delayed again and will more than likely, not be available until spring of 2010. Customer relations were not sympathetic to my situation and stood firm that Workhorse is not going to do anything about trying to fix my brakes until the recall this spring. So in the end, I paid the dealer $360 to have the wheels R&R, brakes inspected and the brake fluid changed. I can only pray that changing the brake fluid remedies the "no brakes" condition. It is outrageous that Workhorse is not doing everything possible to keep good customer relations by handling some of these costs and/or replacing damaged components. Instead they stick by the story that they are having issues with customers "riding the brakes." They do this, while at the same time, acknowledging that the computer read-outs are B/S and further admit that they have a problem. This leads me to believe they have made a calculated decision that the cost to remedy these problems by keeping consumers safe far outweighs their liability in case of accidents or God help us, deaths caused by the no brake situation. Good customer relations....does not seem to be a consideration.

Update to earlier post re: Brake failure:

I got the coach back from the authorized service center, Cummins Cal Pacific in Ventura, 3 days ago. After driving it less than 30 miles, the ABS light is on...so back it goes on Monday. Challenge is that now I will need to do a work-around because I was to take the coach to the SEMA show on Monday. But, I'll gladly make plans to stay at a hotel rather than take another chance on NO BRAKES. YIKES! It was a scary SOB when the incident occurred last week. It was a near disaster as it happened at a stop light, near the bottom of a steep hill, in Friday night So Cal traffic. Thank God I had a braking system on the tow car. Also, to be clear, I do not think this is an issue with the service center, although I could be wrong. When I spoke with customer service at Workhorse, they told me in no uncertain terms that they were not going to repair the brakes with new parts that were known defective so I would have to wait until the recall "fix" is out. It might be a different issue if the calipers, pads etc were damaged beyond "safe." Mine showed overheating and some transfer of material but were deemed "safe" to drive. (Maybe they think I can learn not to "ride the brakes"....after all I've only been driving Motor Homes, trucks etc for 40 years or so)
 
Does anyone have one of these phelonic pistons they could take a photo of? Or an exploded schematic? Pistons are not that complicated, millions of cars trucks busses and the like have brakes that don't do this it should not take months to find a solution. Maybe we could find a solution using an existing proven brake caliper. We do it in racing every day.

wayne
 
Workhorse Brake Failure Update 2

I have been posting my day to day experience after total brake failure on 2003 Workhorse W22 chassis. After the brakes failed, I took the coach to Cummins Cal Pacific in Ventura, CA. They "fixed" the brake problem by changing the brake fluid at a cost of $340 including the diagnostic. On the way home the ABS light came on so I took it back in on Monday of this week. Today, Thursday the service writer told me that they had reinspected it and the same codes came up indicating that I was "riding the brakes." The service writer said he was going to contact Workhorse to find out what to do and for advise.
 
Workhorse Brake Failure Update 3

Today, Friday, Nov 6 the service department at Cummins Cal Pacific called me. He said he had spoken with Workhorse and they told him to check the bell crank to see if that was causing the brake pedal to hang up in the applied position. Workhorse rep also told him that IF the bell crank was not the problem, which it was not, then it must be the customer "riding the brakes." The service writer at Cummins Cal Pacific knows that is B/S, the Workhorse rep knows that's B/S and I know it's B/S. I told Cummins Cal Pacific that the coach will stay there until I come to some conclusion on this problem. My first reaction is to sue Workhorse and Cummins Cal Pacific in small claims court for repairs and damages. Any suggestions would be appreciated at this point.
 
bomre340 said:
Workhorse Brake Failure Update 3

My first reaction is to sue Workhorse and Cummins Cal Pacific in small claims court for repairs and damages. Any suggestions would be appreciated at this point.
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    I'm amazed that no one has did this.  It sure seems like you and many others would have a good case.  Just a nice letter to WH on attorney letterhead could could bring out the best of WH customer service.
 
Well look who posted here...Max49!  Amazing!  ;)

Thanks for the update Bombre340.  It's always interesting to see how these failures are being handled by Workhorse......
 
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