Yellowing lights with multiple batteries

[John From Detroit]

All the XANTREX converters/chargers I've seen have equalizing as a manual option

The Progressive Dynamics can do it either automatically or upon request

Some battery minders have it

And some of the so-called "Smart chargers" (Automotoive style) also feature equalize however... And this is a biggy, from what I"ver read of others using them quality control is lacking on many of those.

I stand by the Xantrex/Progressive dynamics recommendations (Or their equals)

As for the magnateck  I'd go to http://www.bestconverter.com Scroll down a bit to the Extra Info section and find the instructions for replacing your Magnateck with something 3-stage

NOTE: That's one place to buy the upgrade too, I read posts by a lot of folks who like Randy.. Never done any business with him myself but everyone who has, and talks about it, seems happy.

 

[Tom]

[quote author=John In Detroit]All the XANTREX converters/chargers I've seen have equalizing as a manual option[/quote]

For clarification John, some of the true Xantrex inverter/chargers I'm familiar with have the option for manual or automatic equalizing. Not so with the Xantrex acquired brand such as Heart, or at least the ones I've owned.

 

[carson]

In reference to Magnetek replacement instructions:

   I pretty well followed the write up by Dresser in this link here 
  Scroll down to the Projects section and click on the Magnetek converter replacement line.

 I installed the PD 9145 with extra Wizard in place of an old Magnetek 6345. Due to size limitations I could not go any larger. In fact even with the 9145 I had to modify the metal case that held the 6345, as the case is part of holding the front opening panel on. A little inventive cutting did the trick.

   It was all straight forward, no surprises. Best thing I ever did. 

carson FL

 

[RLSharp]

Richard:

We have three banks of batteries so that I have a 'fresh' set once  one set gets to around 50% and the lights begin to dim.  No, I don't run them flat, but even if I did, this is what a deep cycle battery is all about.  You are probably thinking of a regular automotive battery.

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

Yes, I have the Magnatek 63xx series unit.  I know they are not good, but one can only upgrade so much at a time.  I will look into replacing it, and hopefully my lightly used batteries aren't beyond what an equalizing will do.

On a related matter, then, what is involved in replacing the converter?  This unit has all the breakers for the trailer, and the DC wiring panel with all the  fuses as well.  It would seem to be a major job to replace all of that.  Does it all have to go?

Frank,

I am reasonably sure that drawing your batteries down until the lights dim, is taking them well below the 50% discharge level. I am positive that there is no way to know the degree of discharge without some sort of a metering device (amp-hr meter). You indicated in the post to which I replied that you "ran a set down" before switching to a different set. To me that infers to a level considerably below the 50% level because I feel the 50% level is normal. I did not mean to infer that you were running them flat, i.e. discharged.

I definitely am not thinking of automotive batteries when referring to the recommended level of battery discharge. Repeated discharging a deep cycle battery to more than 50% is definitely not recommended for maximum service life. If you read the second paragraph in the section "Cycles vs Life" in the reference you posted above, you will see the difference in estimated life of deep cycle batteries base on 10%, 50% and 80% discharge. I believe, but am not sure, that discharging an automobile battery to these same levels will have a much greater adverse effect on battery life than a true deep cycle battery. I do know that automobile batteries do not last long when used as coach batteries.

The very common Magnetek 6345 has a maximum output capacity of 45 amps. However, if you look at the battery charging specs you will find that it will only have a 12 amp charging circuit if it has option C or a 7 amp charging circuit if it has option CC. You can find the option codes on the inside of the access panel to the converter. These are the only two options listed in my Magnetek Service Manual. If charging six 6-volt batteries, you have the equivalent of three 12-volt batteries. So divide either 7 or 12 by 3 and you can see it will take a very long time to charge your batteries even to the 80% level, if they are at or below the 50% discharge level. Our motor home came with a Magnetek 6345 and we tried to keep the batteries reasonably charged while campground hosts in a primitive campground in central Washington with no shore power. IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE! I purchased a Hart Freedom 1000 inverter/charger with an amp-hr meter (Link 100). The three-stage charging circuit put out 50-amps to the batteries to about 80% charge. This still took 2-4 hours of genset service every day to charge the two 12-volt batteries (equivalent to four of your batteries). Most people really under estimate the length of time it takes to charge batteries to a "full charge." You cannot live off the grid for extended periods of time charging your batteries with a Magnetek 63xx series converter and a genset.

Richard

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Believe what Richard says. In fact, it is worse than what he says, since each pair of 6V golf cart batteries has the amp-hour equivalent of two 12v deep cycles (12v are typically 85-105 amp-hours each).  Even at 50% charge on each pair of 6Vs, you are trying to replace over 300 amp-hours with a charger that is producing only 7 (or perhaps 12) amps per hour at best. Usually less, in my experience with the 6345. The 30A 6330 is even more limited.

 

[Ron]

By all means take what Richard, and Gary, as fact.  They are absolutely correct.

 

[Frank B]

Richard:

Thank you for the thoughtful and extensive reply.

When I said we discharged a bank until the lights dimmed, I meant yellowed -- much like we are experiencing now even after several days on shore power.  No, I don't have an amp hour meter, so my guess is approximate at best as to when to switch batteries over.

At home, the trailer sits in a heated garage for weeks at a time with the converter running 24/7, so I assume that even if they were all flat dead, we would end up with a full charge when leaving the house.  Even the first evening out, however, the lights are currently on the yellow side, which is why I started this post to begin with.  So, either our Magnatek 6332 has already done my batteries in, or I need to equalize them.

In any case, once we get back, I have a few things that need to be serviced anyway (flap on vent for stove fan is gone, propane tank switch sticks when one bottle runs out), so I'll see about replacing the converter at the same time.  I am probably best just getting my local RV dealer (that I am happy with) do the whole works for me.  Not cheap, but they do a good job.

Thanks, all, for your help.

Frank.

 

[Frank B]

John:

>As for the magnateck  I'd go to http://www.bestconverter.com Scroll down a bit to the Extra Info section and find the instructions for replacing your Magnateck with something 3-stage<

Excellent link.  Thank you very much.  I may well attempt this myself as it really does not look that hard.  I didn't realize that the converter was in a separate box like that, and it could just be inserted into the cavity in the magnatek case.  Slick.

My thanks to OnaQuest and Carson as well for similar suggestions.

Frank.

 

[Frank B]

John and others:

OK, just ordered a Xantrex 60 amp unit and three desulphaters from BestConverter.com.

http://www.bestconverter.com/XADC-60A-ConverterCharger_p_115-243.html

The Xantrex units DO NOT have an equalizing function in them, therefore the need for the separate desulphaters.  Randy, at BestConverter, tells me that the desulphater stays on a pair of golf cart batteries full time and prevents sulphate from building up on the plates to begin with.  I may have to have the batteries desulphated with an equalizer first to bring them back into shape, or else just plain wait for the individual desulphaters to do their job slowly over the next few months.  They apparently run any time that the batteries are charging at 13.2v or above.

http://www.bestconverter.com/Desulfators_c_94.html

Now, I can hardly wait to get back home.  (ha ha).

And, yes, Randy seems to be a very helpful and knowledgeable person.  I'll post back again once I get the units installed to report on how things went.

Frank.

 

[Frank B]

OK, time to update this.

I finally got the time to install the Xantrex converter and the desulfaters.  The Xantrex install was much easier than I had anticipated, and the 'step by step' on the Best Converter site made it very easy to do.  Link Here

The only difference was that my DC fuse panel that I bought from Best Converter was slightly different than the one shown in the link, and did not have a large terminal at the top of the board for the 12V+ wire from the converter.  I called Randy close to his closing time, but he did call me back in a few minutes to assure me that I did have to connect the wire there, and suggested that I go get a big ring terminal so that I could attach the 12V+ wire to that bolt.  When I did that, everything worked just fine.  I think it took me only 2-3 hours to do the conversion, and a lot of that was spent reading.  I could do it again now in about an hour if I had to.

The desulfaters have velcro fasteners to attach them to the tops of the batteries (or wherever) and there are only two wires that have to be connected across the pair of golf cart batteries.  Once connected, they assured me, first of all, that my batteries were fine, and then, when I turned the converter on, that they were desulfating my batteries.  They only do the desulfating when some form of charging is taking place.

One advantage to these desulfaters (linked in the message above this one) is that they also have a discharge gauge on them.  Just press the button on the desulfater, and it will tell you the charge level of the battery.  I'm not sure that this is 'good enough' for accurate assessment of the state of the batteries, but it is certainly better than nothing.  The three LED's indicate good at 12.3 to 12.8 volts, fair at 11.8 to 12.3 volts, and poor at 11.2 to 12.3 volts.  No LED's lit indicates battery voltage is less than 11.2 volts.

So, now to try them out.  We'll be away in a couple of weeks for a few days, and I'll see what difference the desulfaters make between now and then.  I have the 5er in our heated garage, with the charger running, and the desulfaters working.  Don't know if two weeks of desulfating will end the 'yellow light' syndrome, but I guess we'll see.

In any case, I can heartily recommend Best Converters for Randy's excellent service and good knowledge.  It is SO nice to talk to someone that actually knows what he is talking about. 

Frank.

 

[Ron]

Thanks for the update Frank.  Good to hear you got everything installed.  Now go have some fun.

 

[John From Detroit]

I think you are going to like that Xantrex set up

And as for Best Converters

I've never had cause to do business with them however everywhere I go I hear from many of his happy customers v/s .. Well, I don't think I've ever read a negative comment regarding them.

So when I have cause.. that will be my FIRST stop

 

[Frank B]

John:

>So when I have cause.. that will be my FIRST stop<

While his prices are fair, they are not the best available.  However, the service sure is.  I think service beats bottom dollar price in most cases.

Frank.

 

[Frank B]

OK, time for an update.

I've had the desulfaters and the Xantrex converter for close on a year now.  I am happy with the converter, as it restores a charge quite rapidly.

As for my original problem, however, of yellow lights in the trailer, this still persists.  This may be a matter of 'eye of the beholder' however.  And the remaining incandescent fixtures still dim when the pump is on.

My solution has been to switch over to 12 v fluorescent lights.  I find them much more pleasing, and they continue to give the same intensity and colour of light any time they are lit, whether the battery is fully charged or not, and whether the pump is running or not.  At close to $100 per fixture, they are definitely not cheap.  I  put one in the kitchen area, one in the bathroom, and one in our bedroom.

The bathroom is excellent.  I really need two of them in the kitchen / table area, however.  With the low ceiling in the bedroom area of our small 5th, that light is too close to my head for comfortable reading, and the glare becomes oppressive.  I've put a piece of duct tape along one side as a 'shade' and that helps.  I probably need one of those chrome-plastic grilles over that light.

Now, if only someone would start making some decent LED fixtures for trailers....

Frank.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

There are numerous LED replacements available for the bulbs in 12v fixtures, so you don't actually need an LED fixture. Most folks do not find the LED light pleasing or equivalent to the incandescent in actual light output (lumens). There are now some warm white LEDs on the market, though.

We have replaced some halogen bulbs with LEDs in our under cabinet lighting. Gets rid of the extreme heat of the halogen (it could melt things placed directly underneath!) and reduces the amp load dramatically.

 

[Frank B]

Gary:

>or equivalent to the incandescent in actual light output (lumens)<

I know there are replacement LED arrays, but I doubt these work well in a fixture made for a single-filament incandescent.  These often have lenses designed to disperse light from a single-filament source, and I can't see it working well with a multi-source LED array - at least, not the ones I've seen.  See the PCB series in this link:

LED's

Current LED array replacements also have the issue of not being as bright, as you note.

If warm whites are now appearing, then that is great news.  However, it is the energy efficiency that appeals to me the most.  LED's are far and away the least power hungry source of light.  Not that lights are the primary drain on a battery, but they often run more than a fan motor.

I look forward to seeing a properly designed LED fixture that will give equivalent brightness and take full advantage of the different nature of LED's.  Until that day comes, however..... 

Frank.