A gentle and sane debate on energy sources

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Good points on transmission...we have to increase grid capacity for any new renewables to work effectively, and transmission lines are both expensive and difficult to permit since no one wants a 345,000 volt tower in their backyard.  Deregulation of the power industry in the 90's has made it even more difficult to build because the transmission company is now separate from the generating company, which is separate from the grid operator, etc.  With a vertically integrated utility, like we had in the past, the power company simply decided what was needed and built it, now it is a private enterprise which is looking first to protect operating margins, not necessarily looking to build the most "efficient" system.

Regarding the intermittency problem with renewables, wind is very difficult to integrate into an ISO (Independent System Operator).  An ISO refers to a third party system operator who tells all the generation station in a region when to operate and how much power to make.  The ISO is responsible for balancing load and supply and makes operating decisions, usually on a 5-second interval, to ensure no voltage drops across the system.  They have to take into account everything, including what transmission constraints are in place, what units have indicated they are "available" and last but not least, who is the least expensive unit to operate.  All these parameters to into a "dispatch" model and signals are sent to the generators on an incremental basis telling them how much power to make.  Wind and Solar can't respond to dispatch signals so they are considered "must run" and that infrequency and lack of responsiveness make the ISO have to compensate and work harder to balance the system.

Wind, solar, and hydro will "always" dispatch because it is the cheapest marginal cost to generate, unless there is a over supply situation or a tranmission problem getting the power to the load centers.  Following these guys, Nuclear will run, then coal, and lastly natural gas fired CTs or combustion turbines.  Nuclear requires many days to ramp up and down, so you don't just call 'em up and say you need more power.  They are scheduled days in advance and do NOT shut down unless there is an emergency.  Coal plants similarly take hours to ramp up and down.  They're not as slow to respond as Nuclear, but it takes a long time to build up heat in the boilers, and similarly to bleed off heat.  Gas turbines are the whipping boys of the power industry.  Just like an airplane engine, they can throttle up and down very quickly and are generally considered to be "load followers" in that they are the suspension of the system, absorbing the "bumps" in demand by throttling up and down on a seconds notice. 

As you can imagine, operating a grid is a very, very, very complex task, and requires the coordination of many different components.  Wind and Solar can never be more than a small percentage of this system because of their intermittency and the inherent problem with balancing supply and demand I mentioned earlier.  You "MUST" have load following capacity for 30-40% of your total load to keep the system reliable, and for now, that will remain natural gas.  I suppose you could use biofuels like ethanol in a gas turbine instead of natural gas, but the volume required would be tremendous and as was pointed out earlier, people are not going to stand for doubling food prices to pay for corn-based ethanol in those quantities.

Power "storage" is another concept that is already in use and growing in popularity.  There are hydro plants that "pump" water up to a higher elevation during off-peak periods for use during high demand hours.  There are also utilities actually installing huge battery banks in neighborhoods to shave "peak" demand.  These are literally just enormous lead-acid wet-cell battery banks capable of generating 1-2 MW when needed, just like your RV but on a much larger scale.

More later.
 
Mc2Guy makes some very good points, and yes I do believe that the gas plant we own is a gas turbine plant, which as he states can come off and on line easliy. 

The "grid" in my area actually runs through 14 western states.  Even though it passes through many different utility providers (the guys who send you the bill every month), all of those overhead lines are continuous and interconnect and are called "The grid".  The lenght of these lines is needed because A/C power needs to move continuously so it travels in this big circle (if you will) until consumed and as power is consumed more power has to be put on the lines to maintain voltage. 

I agree that solar/wind/geo thermal etc cannot be the base energy provider, you are going to need a nuclear, hydro or clean coal base line but with the grid as large as it is, and if possible tie into other large grids, this brings more wind,solar/geo thermal into play because the wind may not be blowing in California today, but its blowing in Texas or Washington, or Oregon or Wyoming, and if you could manage to control all of those power producing states and move that power around where it is needed........well that would be one hell of a job, but possibly worth the effort.
 
Mc2guy said:
As you can imagine, operating a grid is a very, very, very complex task, and requires the coordination of many different components. 

And failures in the coordination of those many components were contributing factors in the August 14, 2003, blackout

Sadly, from what I understand, implementation of the recommendations from the U.S.-Canada Power System Outage Task Force to improve reliability has been spotty at best.  This is probably, in part, due to the deregulation of the power industry describe by Mc2guy.

::) Ironically, the morning of August 14, 2003, I was in the simulator running scenarios related to loss of grid events. 

With the weird weather we've been having this year, several times the base load nuclear plant that I retired from had to run one of it's units back rather rapidly due to loss of a 500,000 volt transmission line.  Fortunately, the unit I was associated with is able to move very quickly for a nuclear power plant and was able to accommodate the load dispatcher's request.
 
Any TIDAL POWER experts around?

  Generating electricity with tidal power has been a subject of dicussion for a long time. I have heard of the power plant in Newfoundland, CA. in a recent thread; small potatoes.

    Then I read about a plan a year ago or so about someone working on putting multi turbines into the Gulf Stream off the East Coast of the US. Then there were plans about anchoring floating devices that would rise and fall with the tide (or wave) action to create humongous quantities of power. I am sure you folks could add to this list, things I haven't heard of yet.

  Now, let your imagination run wild and consider the following.... Let us assume there is a tidal cave/cavern somewhere in the World, preferably in the US, that would be large enough for this purpose. (A tidal cave has an opening at sea level which is partially open during the tidal sequence, then would naturally get shut off to the outside air environment at high tide,  then open up again at low tide).

  Imagine a cave of great size...there would be an air turbine constructed at the very top. When the power of the ocean- big stuff- enters the cave, the air would compress for several hours (6 or so) at tremendous pressure. This pressure would run the turbine, generating x amount of energy. Then there would be a lull at tide change. Shortly after that the pressure would reverse; the turbine would be constructed to deliver energy running backwards, during the water returning to the ocean. I guess you get the drift.

    I know there are large caves like that in Hawaii, Korea etc, but most of them are very long...miles... but not very high.(Maybe they will work, depending on the volume). Now, if huge caverns, the size of the capacities needed, are not to be found on Earth, can we build them? I can imagine caverns the size of multi-multi domed stadia, that is big.We have built hydro dams, Hoover, etc many years ago, what's so hard about building a huge project like this? Tidal energy is perpetual,  river water flow is not guaranteed forever. Trust the Moon to help in this project.

  I humble ask you to tell me if I am nuts.  or?


carson FL
 
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