Campground Electric Question ....

[carson]

George, you are quite right abut ELI and ICE.

Motors have virtually no resistive element, only inductance.  So phase relationship between current and voltage causes the current imbalance. 

A little link here may explain a bit better>>>>http://www.electronicstheory.com/html/e101-31.htm

  Tom, the main power requirement is the heating element, the motor is miniscule.

Carson
 

 

[Jammer]

Hi Mayfair

Metering is a side interest of mine and I have a number of extra utility-style electric meters sitting around that I use for various tests and experiments.  Often meters can be had cheaply on eBay since utilities have been upgrading to remotely readable meters and they often end up selling used meters or old stock new meters as surplus.  The sockets are available cheaply in any home center.

So you could put your own meter in line and compare the readings if you really wanted, BUT....

It is vanishingly rare for a meter to fail in a way that causes excessive registration.  If they do fail they ordinarily won't show any usage at all or in rare cases they will register less than actual.

I don't think your melted shore power cord has much to do with the problem either.  They are a result of dirty or worn contacts or terminals on the plug or socket and have little or nothing to do with power usage.

There are some things you can check.  First of all you have to find out how many kwh you use and how much they charge.  Some places charge really high rates and if they're charging you $0.75 a kwh well then your problem doesn't have anything to do with electricity.  The going rate varies regionally, around here it's usually $0.10 or so.

Second of all check the KWH on the meter against what they bill.  Sometimes the meter numbers get mixed up and you end up trading electric bills with that guy with the Prevost two sites down from you or whatever.

Second of all you can see how much power you use per day and how much you use while you're gone by reading the meter every morning or whatever and subtracting.  If it looks like you're using more power when you're away from the site then something's up and either someone else is plugged into your pole during the week or the wiring is dodgy and somehow another site is wired into your meter too or something.

You can also play around and run a known load, maybe shut off everything except a 1500 watt heater while you're gone for a couple of hours and then check the meter reading when you come back and see whether it adds up, 2 hours * 1500 watts / 1000 = 3 kwh for example, adjust as necessary if the times and load are different.  This isn't accurate enough for calibration but it can catch things like a misapplied or miswired meter that's consistently showing 2x or 5x the actual usage or something.

 

[mayfair]

First of all - Thanks guys for all of your replies! I REALLY appreciate it! 

Ok, I may have exaggerated a bit when I said that my meter spun like a CD. It doesn't spin quite that fast, but out of nowhere, it'll start spinning twice as fast (maybe more) as it did previously with no extra current draw on my end. (A/C turned off - etc). I am using my electric water heater, however even with the hot water being turned off for hours, it'll still start spinning like crazy, so I really don't think that is it. Either way, I haven't changed the way I camp at all. I've ALWAYS used my electric heater.

The main thing to remember is that previously my electric bills were in the $40 range, whereas now they're in the hundreds with nothing changing on my end as far as electrical usage goes, so somethings up. I'm hoping that you guys can help me figure it out.

I don't think that anyone is plugging into my pole as my pole isn't really near anyone else. If someone wanted to plug into my pole from another site, they'd literally need a 100+ foot power cord. My site backs up to the woods, which is where my pole is.

As far as connections, I've replaced my power cord, so I know that those connections are tight. I've also pulled the socket where my plug plugs into, and I've tightened those wires as well, however they really weren't loose either. Anything else that may be loose would be beyond what I can get to (the meter - the top of the pole - etc)

I just found this meter and it may help me out.

http://www.powermeterstore.com/p5650/metermaid_power_meter.php

Have any of you guys used it, or what do you think?

 

[Jammer]

Ok, I may have exaggerated a bit when I said that my meter spun like a CD. It doesn't spin quite that fast, but out of nowhere, it'll start spinning twice as fast (maybe more) as it did previously with no extra current draw on my end. (A/C turned off - etc).

Unplug your shore power cord sometime when it's doing that and see if it stops.

If it doesn't, it's wired in such a way to measure something besides how much power you're using.

If it does, chances are that you have something on your rig that's using power.  What kind of rig do you have?  Engine block heater on the main engine?  On the generator?  Pipe defrosters?  Holding tank heaters?

 

[mayfair]

What kind of rig do you have?  Engine block heater on the main engine?  On the generator?  Pipe defrosters?  Holding tank heaters?

Lol ... I don't have anything as fancy as you guy's do. I have a 1999 24' Prowler bunkhouse. Nothing fancy, no real bells or whistles. No tank heaters, generators, or anything like that. Just a regular ole camper .... 

 

[RLSharp]

mayfair,

Unplug your shore power cord sometime when it's doing that and see if it stops.

Have you tried Jammer's suggestion? If so, what did you observe?

Richard

 

[Kim (skyking4ar2) Bertram]

Humor me, and don't tell me how much the bill was in dollars, tell me how many KWH's you were charged for.

For comparison, I used ~620 KWH last month in my Class A in Colorado cool weather. At $.20 per KWH, the park rate, that's ~$124.

Always check the biller's math first (Occam's razor).

 

[path]

Our camp ground has bad elect.  No conduit just wire buried in ground around the early 60's with a 15amp circuit.
We had a big elect bill couple years ago. Park maint. came out and put a volt meter on the metal door step and other lead into the ground and the meter showed "stray" elect. Not much but enough to create a big bill.  They replaced wires coming from meter to breaker and problem was fixed. 

 

[mayfair]

Humor me, and don't tell me how much the bill was in dollars, tell me how many KWH's you were charged for.

For comparison, I used ~620 KWH last month in my Class A in Colorado cool weather. At $.20 per KWH, the park rate, that's ~$124.

Always check the biller's math first (Occam's razor).

Here ya go:

For the month of June:

Trans Type: METERED-METERED-ELECTRICAL METER READING

Range: Start: MAY 30 11 at 2969 PER KWHEnd: JUN 30 11 at 3200 PER KWH = 231 PER KWH    $41.58


For the month of September:

Trans Type: METERED-METERED-ELECTRICAL METER READING

Range: Start: AUG 30 11 at 4407 PER KWHEnd: OCT 1 11 at 5842 PER KWH = 1435 PER KWH    $258.30

Like I said, NOTHING has changed as far as our electrical usage goes. As a matter of fact, we probably only used the A/C for the first half of September (using the fan portion only of A/C the 2nd half of the month - no compressor) whereas in June we probably used the A/C the whole month.

 

[mayfair]

mayfair,
Have you tried Jammer's suggestion? If so, what did you observe?

Richard

I think I have.
Well, let me say that whenever I unplug my camper, the meter stops.

 

[Kim (skyking4ar2) Bertram]

If you extrapolate your meter readings, you then used ~1200 KWH for July and August, averaging ~600 KWH for the two months, compared to 231 before and 1435 after. Those are some pretty radical fluctuations that your "regular" usage would not easily explain.

In my case, when being charged by the KWH for electricity, I try to read the meter every couple of days, just to stay ahead of this kind of thing. I would expect you could do the same and, in my case, I expect to use not much more than 30 KWH in a given 24 hour period. It's a pain, but it does allow you to keep an eye on unusual events.

I also think you have a case for having the power company replace the meter if your other troubleshooting doesn't detect a problem. Even they have to be reasonable enough to agree that level of usage on that kind of an uptick is not easily explained. I don't think I used much more than 1500 KWH in my 2400' stick home in the South in the summer.

Certainly, you have an aggravating and expensive problem.

 

[Jammer]

Here ya go:

For the month of September:

Trans Type: METERED-METERED-ELECTRICAL METER READING

Range: Start: AUG 30 11 at 4407 PER KWHEnd: OCT 1 11 at 5842 PER KWH = 1435 PER KWH    $258.30

Like I said, NOTHING has changed as far as our electrical usage goes. As a matter of fact, we probably only used the A/C for the first half of September (using the fan portion only of A/C the 2nd half of the month - no compressor) whereas in June we probably used the A/C the whole month.

That's around 45 kw per day or a 2000 watt continuous load.

There are only a few ways to go through that kind of power:

1) Electric heat, including heat strips in the A/C or a heat pump

2) Electric water heater combined with a hot water leak somewhere so the water heater runs all the time

3) Grow lights in the hall closet for your secret hydroponic tomato production project

You watch the meter and try shutting off breakers in your rig one at a time to help you figure it out.

It's got to go somewhere.

 

[jimmie123]

When I had a problem with a meter at a former house, I used one of the oldest tricks in the world. I called the power company and told them that despite the fact that I was using electric, the meter wasn't "turning". I think it took them about 10 minutes to get out there...I then told them that the meter started turning after I called. THey checked the meter, found it to be defective, and replaced it. If they think that they could be losing $$, watch how quick the response time is. As far as recovering the ridiculously high amounts of supposed electric consumption, you really have to negotiate with the power company..I did get a partial refund after complaining long enough.

 

[vermilye]

Ohm's law has nothing to do with this discussion. Ohm's Law, E=IR is a way to figure out the resistance of a circuit using the volts and amps. The P=IE is the way to figure out how much wattage is being consumed using volts and amps. They are apples and oranges.

I can't let Tom's explanation of wattage go by.  What determines current when a voltage is applied to a circuit is the resistance of the circuit.  For a heating load the resistance is built into the heater element, ie the length, diameter & wire material.  Although it does change with a bit with the temperature of the wire, for determining wattage, once it is hot the resistance isn't going to change more than a small amount. 

For example, a 1200 watt heater designed to run at 120V (chosen to keep the math simple) would draw 10 amps when plugged in to its designed voltage. (I = W/E or 1200/120 = 10).  You can calculate the resistance of the element using R=E/I or 120/10 = 12 ohms.  Again, this is a physical resistance determined by the length, diameter & material of the element.  If you drop the voltage to 60 you still have the same resistance.  I = E/R = 60/12 = 5 amps.  To determine wattage, use W = IXE or 5X60 = 300 watts.  So, dropping the voltage by 1/2 gives you 1/4th the wattage. If you carry this to the extreme, apply 1 volt. The resistance will still be around 12 ohms (if you want to be exact, the fact that the element is cooler will decrease the resistance by a bit, but not enough to matter unless you are an engineer). I=E/R = 1/12 = .083 amps.  Watts = IXE = .083X1 = .083 watts.

If wattage was the constant, why wouldn't the heater draw 1200 watts with 0v applied?

Motor loads fall closer to Tom's explanation - if it is going to do the same amount of work, dropping the voltage will increase the current which is why air conditioners can be damaged by low voltage.  Low voltage will not damage your heater, hair dryer or coffee pot; they will just take longer to get the job done since they will be dissipating less wattage.

 

[mayfair]

That's around 45 kw per day or a 2000 watt continuous load.

There are only a few ways to go through that kind of power:

1) Electric heat, including heat strips in the A/C or a heat pump

2) Electric water heater combined with a hot water leak somewhere so the water heater runs all the time

3) Grow lights in the hall closet for your secret hydroponic tomato production project

You watch the meter and try shutting off breakers in your rig one at a time to help you figure it out.

It's got to go somewhere.

Lol - That cracked me up!  ;D

Keep in mind that I'm only camping on the weekends. During the week, the only things drawing electricity would be my refrigerator, my alarm clock, a teeny lihjt on my coffee maker, and whatever that device is called that maintains the battery (inverter?) That's IT! I turn my hot water heater off every time that I leave.

 

[Lou Schneider]

That's around 45 kw per day or a 2000 watt continuous load.

During the week, the only things drawing electricity would be my refrigerator, my alarm clock, a teeny lihjt on my coffee maker, and whatever that device is called that maintains the battery (inverter?)

How's the temperature in your refrigerator?  The electric heating element can draw anywhere from 300-450 watts all by itself, and it's usually on most of the time.  If it's partially shorted it can draw more power before it ultimately burns out.

Are you sure your coffeemaker isn't turning itself on while you're gone?  That's another 1000 watts or so.

Get a Kill-A-Watt meter (about $30 at Home Depot and other hardware stores, or at Amazon) and use it to check the power consumption of things inside the rig like the refrigerator.

If you can't find any high draw items inside the trailer, plug the Kill-A-Watt into the pedestal and the trailer's cord into the Kill-A-Watt.  You'll need a 20 amp adapter for your trailer cord, and a 30 to 20 amp adapter to plug into the pedestal's 30 amp socket, unless there's also a 20 amp socket there.

Check the trailer's current draw on the Amps scale, to make sure you're not drawing more than the Kill-A-Watt's 15 amp limit.  Read your electric meter, then come back in a couple of hours and read the meter again. Compare how much power it says you've used against the KW/H readout on the Kill-A-Watt.

 

[mayfair]

How's the temperature in your refrigerator?  The electric heating element can draw anywhere from 300-450 watts all by itself, and it's usually on most of the time.  If it's partially shorted it can draw more power before it ultimately burns out.

The refrigerator seems to be fine. I've put a little refrigerator thermometer in there and it's always in the "safe zone". It kinda freezes up the fins inside of the refrigerator about once or twice a season, but I think thats normal. I've always had to remove the ice build up on those fins from time to time. About a year or so ago i got a notice about some sort of Dometic recall and I had to take the camper to Camping World to have something replaced on my refrigerator, but I don't know what exactly it was that was replaced. The entire refrigerator certainly wasn't. It didn't take them long to do the job, whatever it was.

Are you sure your coffeemaker isn't turning itself on while you're gone?  That's another 1000 watts or so.

I really doubt it. The only thing that stays on is the little clock.

Get a Kill-A-Watt meter (about $30 at Home Depot and other hardware stores, or at Amazon) and use it to check the power consumption of things inside the rig like the refrigerator.

I actually have one of those, but i have no idea where the "plug" on my refrigerator is. Would it be behind that plastic cover that is on the outside of my camper?

If you can't find any high draw items inside the trailer, plug the Kill-A-Watt into the pedestal and the trailer's cord into the Kill-A-Watt.  You'll need a 20 amp adapter for your trailer cord, and a 30 to 20 amp adapter to plug into the pedestal's 30 amp socket, unless there's also a 20 amp socket there.

I have both adapters, however what is my camper draws more than the 20w that the meter is capable of handling? Won't that kill the meter? I'd hate to do that. That's the only reason why I haven't tried that yet.

Check the trailer's current draw on the Amps scale, to make sure you're not drawing more than the Kill-A-Watt's 15 amp limit.  Read your electric meter, then come back in a couple of hours and read the meter again. Compare how much power it says you've used against the KW/H readout on the Kill-A-Watt.

Answers above in bold

Thank you!

 

[Lou Schneider]

Yes, the refrigerator plug is in the compartment behind the outside door.  You may need an extension cord to put the Kill-A-Watt where you can see it.  But this is a long shot, I mentioned it only because you seem to  be running out of alternatives.

I have both adapters, however what is my camper draws more than the 20w that the meter is capable of handling? Won't that kill the meter? I'd hate to do that. That's the only reason why I haven't tried that yet.

Think of it as a $30 sacrificial lamb.  That's what it costs to get a new one.  If it burns out, it will stop passing current like turning off a switch.  There may be some smoke, but it won't pose any danger to you or anyone else.  Just unplug it and throw it away.  But having it burn out tells you something inside the trailer is drawing a lot of current.  On the other hand, if it survives and continues to give valid readings (not showing OL or similar when you select Amps) while the main electric meter is spinning like a CD, then it proves the main meter is defective or the excess power is going somewhere other than into your rig.

The Kill-A-Watt is capable of handling 15 amps.  As long as you aren't using any major appliances in your trailer (air conditioner, electric heater, coffemaker, etc.) the current passing through the Kill-A-Watt should stay well under that limit.  If you're drawing more than that, especially enough to burn it out, you've isolated the problem to something inside the trailer drawing lots of power.

 

[Happy Prospector]

Mayfair
What I believe what you should try first is that when your meter is spinning fast is to turn off each breaker one at a time in your camper and see which breaker would make the meter slow down to a "normal" speed. That would then make it easier to start your trouble shooting on finding your problem.

Kevin

 

[vermilye]

That's around 45 kw per day or a 2000 watt continuous load.

There are only a few ways to go through that kind of power:

1) Electric heat, including heat strips in the A/C or a heat pump

2) Electric water heater combined with a hot water leak somewhere so the water heater runs all the time

3) Grow lights in the hall closet for your secret hydroponic tomato production project

You watch the meter and try shutting off breakers in your rig one at a time to help you figure it out.

It's got to go somewhere.

It is hard to believe that you could be using 2000 watts 24 hours a day for the month without something obvious. Have to agree with Jammers statement or you have a bad meter.  I've seen ground faults (often from animal nests, gnawed wiring, etc) that don't draw enough current to trip the power utility fuse (the meter is usually ahead of any pedestal circuit breakers) but since unplugging the RV stops the meter, it can't be a ground fault.  I'd ask to connect to another pedestal to eliminate a problem with the RV.  You may need to purchase an extension cord, but that would be less expensive than paying the bill.  By the way, if the meter does prove to be defective, complain to the utility to get the over payments refunded based on your average bill.  They will usually do that if their meter was bad.