Comparing Brake Controllers - Proportional vs Time Delay

[Gord N.]

I need some advice on choosing the right Brake Controller for my truck.  It is a 99 Ford F250 Supercab Lgt Duty and pulling a 25 ft. Golden Falcon GVWR of 8322 lbs.

I hope this doesn't start a war on what is worst or best, but would like some knowledgeable "pluses" and "minuses" in order to make an informed decision on what to buy and install.
Thanks all.  [Play nice now...don't fight!  ]

Gord

 

[Mark R.]

In a nut shell, time delay is dumb junk and in my opinion should not be legal to use! Proportional is intelligent and the best. Every time you stop your car/truck you use the proper amount of brake pressure for that situation, fast stop or long slow down, that's what proportional brake controllers do, they copy what you are doing.

 

[Foto-n-T]

I'm only the second to post on this thread but I've got a sneaking suspicion that you aren't going to get too many positive responses for a time delay brake control.

Keep in mind that what you are dragging around with you is inherently unstable to start with.  Pickups just aren't designed to be hauling around stuff behind them that weighs more than the truck and I don't really care what the marketing people at the big 3 have to say about it.  Tow ratings are pretty much just hype.  Having said this, you really do want a brake controller that will allow the trailer to use it's own brakes to the best of their ability.  The brakes on the truck should be used to stop only the truck and the brakes on the trailer should only be stopping the trailer.  A proportional brake controller that is designed for the number of brakes that the trailer has is your safest and most cost effective way to go.

 

[Gord N.]

Thanks to both of you, Foto-n-T and MarkR.  I had pretty much concluded that either the P2 or P3 would be what I would get.
Other forums back up what both of you were saying, so I think we should be secure and comfortable with that choice.  My daughter was in "Camping World today and picked one up for me, along with a set of new towing mirrors.  Now, if it would just stop raining......... :-[

Gord

 

[Lou Schneider]

Time based controllers are absolute junk.  The Prodigy 2 and 3 are good inertial based controllers, and work as well as an inertial based controller can.  There are situations that will fool an inertial based controller into applying the trailer brakes at less than optimum performance, either too hard or not enough.

The absolute best controller is one that reads the hydraulic pressure in the tow vehicle's brake line and applies the trailer brakes in direct proportion to that pressure.  Kelsey Hayes made such a controller back in the 1960s but it was made obsolete when cars went to dual braking systems.

Ford started offering a true proportional controller as a factory option in 2005.  For other vehicles you can get the same performance in the Max Brake controller.

 

[IrishBrewer]

I have a P3 and it is great.  Had a friend who upgraded from the time based style and he says there is no going back.  He noticed a huge difference when coming to a slow stop, no more getting jerked around due to the brake controller action.

It works just as well in reverse which is nice and it also has some one touch adjustment features.

It also checks for problems (open circuits and shorts) and will produce an error message if it detects them.

 

[Gord N.]

There are situations that will fool an inertial based controller into applying the trailer brakes at less than optimum performance, either too hard or not enough.

Thanks Lou for that confirmation.  If you have the time, could you expand a bit on the statement quoted above, since that may be good for a casual puller to know. 

Gord

 

[Gord N.]

Thanks IrishBrewer for your comforting comments as well, and the additional information that I was not aware of.
Regards,
Gord

 

[Lou Schneider]

If you have the time, could you expand a bit on the statement quoted above, since that may be good for a casual puller to know.

Sure, Gord.  Most of the time the pendulum or decelerometer based proportional controllers work very well and they are a huge improvement over time-based controllers, which are real junk.

But their Achilles' Heel is depending on sensing the deceleration of the rig to determine how to apply the trailer brakes.  Which means the tow vehicle brakes have to initiate the deceleration, then the controller activates the trailer brakes to supplement the vehicle brakes.

Anything that affects the tow vehicle's braking like skidding on gravel or ice will fool the controller into releasing the trailer brakes, making the skid more severe than it would be in a solo vehicle.  Especially a front wheel skid, which is more likely with a conventional trailer pushing down on the tow vehicle's rear bumper during a panic stop (weight transfers forward from the trailer to the hitch when stopping).  You're less likely to lose weight from the front end with a 5th wheel since it's hitch point directly above the tow vehicle rear axle and transfers more weight forward when stopping.

Going over a bump like a set of railroad tracks can do the same thing - the rig oscillating up and down can momentarily remove weight from the front axle, making easier to skid the front tires if you're braking hard at the same time.

Once the front wheels skid, you lose braking and directional control from the skidding tires, the controller releases or reduces the application of the trailer brakes and all you have stopping the combination is the tow vehicle's rear axle brakes.  The natural reaction is to step even harder on the brake pedal, which only makes the situation worse.

Again, these aren't common occurrences, but they do happen from time to time.  And having the trailer brakes release when you're counting on them can cause some real pucker!

If you have the presence of mind, you can stab the controller's manual override to re-apply the trailer brakes.

None of this happens with a hydraulic sensing true proportional controller - if you go into a front tire skid, you still have the trailer brakes working like they should.  It feels like the trailer and tow vehicle brakes are a single system.

 

[Gord N.]

Thanks Lou.  Great information to have. Let's hope I never have to experience it!
This 5th wheel is used, but new to me, as is the truck.  The truck previously pulled a 5er but the hitch was removed so I had to install a new one.  Had a hitch shop do the work and also rewire the power connector from under the truck to inside the box.  All this was done before I ever pulled the 5th wheel.
When I went to pick up the trailer,  I experienced lurching on my way home.  It was a front-to-back action which occurred randomly, at no particular speed or whether it was coasting or under power going up hill.  Very strange and I never experienced that with my previous 5th wheel (20 yrs ago!)
I've read the comments on similar events here in the forum and the suggestions as to why it was happening, along with the possible fixes.
My tanks were empty on this trip, and the previous owner's recorded weight on the pin (tanks empty) was 937 lbs.  That is just over 10% of the GVWR for the trailer.  I have filled my fresh water tank (40 gals) so that should add close to 400 lbs for my test to see if the lurching is still there.  Have not had the chance to get it out yet but will this coming week hopefully. 
Brakes had been recently done on the trailer so I'm not thinking there is a problem there just yet. They sound like they are applying correctly but that remains to be investigated.
I was wondering if it could be a braking component however causing the problem due to a problem with the re-wired power cord, or with the old controller.  Can a poor ground, cause a surging sensation or anything of that nature.  I have purchased a new P2 controller and will get it installed this week.  I'll put the same question to the installer when I get the current one changed out.  I'm trying to attack the problem trying the simplest fixes first before having the brakes done or checked again.  I am in a rural area and some distance from competent service facilities.  Any more thoughts on this you can share?
Regards,

Gord

 

[Lou Schneider]

I doubt it was the brakes since the controller doesn't activate them until it sees voltage on the brake lamp line.

Lurching is usually caused by the relationship of the truck and trailer wheelbases to the expansion joints on concrete roads.  The truck crosses a joint, then the trailer crosses one a fraction of a second earlier or later.  Not much you can do about it.

 

[eliallen]

  Can a poor ground, cause a surging sensation or anything of that nature. 
Gord

I am in the process of replacing my controller, I noticed a warning on the ground wire. If not connected right, you may experience problems. Not sure what kind of problems.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

I'm only the second to post on this thread but I've got a sneaking suspicion that you aren't going to get too many positive responses for a time delay brake control.

Keep in mind that what you are dragging around with you is inherently unstable to start with.  Pickups just aren't designed to be hauling around stuff behind them that weighs more than the truck and I don't really care what the marketing people at the big 3 have to say about it.  Tow ratings are pretty much just hype.  Having said this, you really do want a brake controller that will allow the trailer to use it's own brakes to the best of their ability.  The brakes on the truck should be used to stop only the truck and the brakes on the trailer should only be stopping the trailer.  A proportional brake controller that is designed for the number of brakes that the trailer has is your safest and most cost effective way to go.

I think I might be misunderstanding this post. Are you saying that truck manufacturers arent actually fesigning their trucks to tow trailers and are just throwing figures out there just for hype?  If that is actually what you're trying to say you are way wrong. My 2008 F350 is designed to pull up to 15,300 lbs and with over 14k on it there is nothing that is unstable. In fact it feels like it can pull a heck of a lot more than what the engineers say. I've never heard anyone say that that towing figures are nothing but a bunch of hype.  If I were an engineer I would take serious offense to your statement. Now maybe i'm just misunderstanding what you're saying, if I am I appologize.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

The previous owner of my 01 F350 installed a time based controller. I didn't know it was time based and have never experienced such a thing previously. It was as aggravating as you can imagine. At first you feel no help from the trailer so you push harder on the brake pedal then BAM, the trailers brakes just about lock up. I tried to fine tune it but it was either way too much or not enough. I was a happy camper (literally) once I switched to a real brake controller and now that I have an 08 ford with an integrated controller i'm very relaxed while towing.
I was told that farmers like to use time based units but I don't buy that, I can't imagine any scenario where a time based controller would be a better option.

 

[Foto-n-T]

My 2008 F350 is designed to pull up to 15,300 lbs and with over 14k on it there is nothing that is unstable. In fact it feels like it can pull a heck of a lot more than what the engineers say.

Nope, I don't think you misunderstood me.  The tow rating is whatever Ford, Chevy or Dodge say it is.  There isn't a specific scientific measure or a government standard that sets forth "EXACTLY" how they arrive at their numbers regarding non-commercial trucks.  If Ford, Chevy or Dodge wants the highest tow rating for a specific truck they just make it so, who's going to call them a liar?  It's marketing and there isn't anybody out there that can prove them wrong if they say a certain truck will tow a locomotive up a 12% grade.  Keep in mind that the manufacturers could care less about "your feelings".  They want to sell you something and they are extremely good at it.  They will push the envelope right up to the edge of the law whenever they get the chance.  If you feel that I'm wrong just ask the next of kin of somebody who owned a Pinto.

A tow rating on a pickup is simply what the marketing department and the engineers "think" it can pull up a hill without blowing up the transmission or unspooling the driveline, your results may vary.  Pickups are designed to perform multiple tasks, from towing to hauling cargo and some folks try both.  It's not like a Class 5, 6, 7 or 8 truck that is designed for one thing and one thing only, towing.  Which by the way is just as true for the latter regarding hauling capacity.  My Class 5 truck tows great but...even though it's got an 18,000 pound drive axle with a cargo capacity of 6,000 pounds in the bed, hauling even 1,500 pounds of Rhino ATV in that thing at highway speeds can get exciting!!

 

[Stewie Griffin]

No way. The marketing department has nothing to do with the ratings of any vehicle. What proof do you have of this claim?  The marketing department publishes what the engineers have designed. Those engineers go through every part of every vehicle, measure steel thicknesses and figure out every components sheer strength. They don't just allow a marketing agent who spent a couple years taking advertising classes at a community college to make those kinds of decisions. Do you know the lawsuits vehicle manufacturers would have if they were doing what you say they're doing? Ford and chevy have been going back and forth over tow ratings. One will claim they tow more then the other will strengthen a part or add a brace to the frame then refigure. Dodge fell back there for a while and when asked if they could bump up their numbers their engineers said no, their transmission wasn't capable of pulling that much weight. I think you're degrading the hard work that engineers do for these companies, these trucks are engineered so that thousands of parts work together to accomplish what we demand.
I have pulled trailers that I probably shouldn't have pulled with certain trucks and that has been the only time I felt the load was unstable, anytime i've pulled under a trucks gcwr i've felt comfortable with the setup. I've always felt that the engineers have done a terrific job designing these trucks, there is no way I would ever pull a heavy trailer if I thought for a second that a marketing agent slapped the tow rating on my truck.
Now, until the government comes out with a set standard that all manufacturers have to abide by to get their ratings we will have to deal with each manufacturer using their own methods to figure out what their limits are. You are right on one aspect, the big three use different formulas and standards to figure out their numbers but engineers, not marketing agents, decide what each vehicle can tow and each method used is legal and correct.
As far as the pinto goes, my mom had one when I was a young kid. I don't remember having any issues with it except for my father tagging a deer with it then as soon as it came back from the body shop my mom turned a four door sedan into a two door hatchback at 65 mph with me, my sister and brother in the car. None of us wearing seatbelts (who did back then). We all walked away with minor injiuries.
Again, i'd love to see proof of your claims. That's a heck of an accusation.

 

[Foto-n-T]

I guess I'm using "Marketing" as a generic term and maybe I shouldn't have.  That's the problem with the "typed" word instead of the spoken word, it's very hard to translate the nuance of a sentence when it's coming across a screen as text.

All I'm really saying is that the "Big 3" can pretty much do whatever they want right up until somebody in fact sues the pants off of them and believe me more than a few have tried.  In the case of the Pinto it was the fact that the thing liked to catch fire when hit from behind.  Until activists had enough bodies planted there wasn't justification for taking Ford on regarding the deaths.  The same thing happened with the Crown Victoria pursuit car (law enforcement) and Toyota's "automatic throttle" a couple of years ago.  We truly are the ultimate "Test Pilots" of these vehicles.  Keep in mind that these companies have what they refer to as "An Acceptable Failure Rate".

I'm not saying that it's unsafe to tow with a pickup, not at all.  My issue is with a huge corporation lulling the general public into thinking that said corporation really has the publics needs and safety in mind.  Their marketing strategy (there's that word again) is directly targeted towards that aim though.  They "want" you to think that theirs is the biggest, baddest towing machine out there.  In fact, what we actually do with those trucks puts us in the vast minority of pickup truck owners, most folks just use them (myself included) as a big open flat spot that holds stuff and rarely if ever put them to the test towing capacity wise.

I guess the best way I can put this is that only a fool would trust what some spokesman says in a commercial, even if that spokeman is Mike Rowe.  For a time I was a consultant for what at that time was one of the worlds largest corporations, a marketing consultant by the way, (you can deduce from my user name just who that corporation might have been).  Some of the claims that they made absolutely blew me away and eventually I decided that morally I was going to have a hard time living with what was being done to sell product and I moved on despite the stupid amount of money they would throw at me.

I am by no means an activist when it comes to wanting the government to protect me from myself, I don't want any more regulation in anything, that includes guns, vehicles and most recently my choice to self insure.

At this juncture I'm going to apologize to the OP for the unintentional hijack of his thread.  I'm very favorable to open debate but to do so at the expense of someone else's original post is poor manners, sorry about that.  If Stewie or anybody else wants to continue the debate feel free to PM me but we need to put this to an end on this thread before a moderator does.

Joe

 

[Stewie Griffin]

The auto industry is supposed to come out with a standard that all auto manifacturers are to follow so there won't be any discrepincies between truck manufacturers methods. I heard about this last year but to my knowledge they have not implemented it.  It's supposed.to force these outo manufacturers to prove it at the same facility, each truck will need to pull the weight that the manufacturer says it can pull. They will have to climb steep inclines and stop the load from a certain speed and ensure it stops within a certain distance. I like that idea.

As far as brake controllers, I wish there was a kit that allowed you to install an integrated factory controller on an older model truck such as the 99 super duty the OP has. They are the best and they give you the fewest problems. My 08 has an integrated one and just like that infomercial says....SET IT AND FORGET IT, lol.  On top of the it has tow/haul and i'm very impressed with it's ability to kick down and have the engine help stop the load. I never knew stopping could be so easy.

 

[Mark R.]

Going way off  topic!

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Tow ratings have been standardized by the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) via the SAE J2807 standard and most manufacturers will comply in the 2013 model year. I think Toyota started this year. However, it seems that Ford will use the new standardized calculations only for "all new" models", and Ford hasn't had an "all new" pick-up truck in more than a decade. Makes one suspicious of Ford's motivation... and their tow ratings

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/12/new-sae-towing-standards-explained.html

But this IS off the brake controller topic, so let's save this discussion for another thread.