"Don't fly over water"

[Jayflight]

Really? Since we have numerous pilots here, this story would probably makes you twist your head 180 and into a knot and say what? if you were told about flying a known faulty airplane.

What has happened to Boeing ? There was an old saying long before Airbus grabbed hold of the large airline industry. If it not Boeing, I ain't going"

Please don't say its all about corporation's profit. We did hear that the loss of cabin pressure had been an issue and had been reported. Why did Alaska Airlines risk a deadly accident by continuing to put the airplane in the air with it filled with passengers? Did the pilots totally ignore the warning or were they forced to fly anyway.

I am aware of the regular work that goes into keeping planes in the air, even the single engine planes that owners and their pilots regularly fly. And personally I know of no one in that capacity that would ever put their airplanes in the air with known issues that would risk their passengers or even their own life.

Yes I know about some deferred maintainance. But this stuff makes no sense in the commercial airline industry.

 

[DutchmenSport]

Well, I have no clue what you are referencing here, but it sounds like someone is having an issue with the airlines.

So, since this is the topic, here's a true stroy:

About 5 years ago my wife and I were flying out of the Charlotte, NC airport to Indianapolis.

My wife and I both worked in Information Technology as software testers, so it was our job to deliberately find ways to break the developer's computer code by finding the systems weaknesses and errors.

Well, everyone was boarded on the plane and we sat and waited, and waited, and waited.

The pilot finally came on the speaker system and announced there would be a delay.

A bit later he came on again and said they were having a problem and the delay would be a bit longer.

He came on again later and apologized for the long delay. He then said, the problem was a "transponder." A transponder was found defective and it needed to be replaced. The transponder was replaced, but in order to activate it, the plan would have to be completely powered down, including the ventilation system in the coach and all lights. He assured us everything was OK, and then the plane would be turned back on again and then everything was promptly shut off. Everyone went completely quiet.

Well.... in my sanguine way, I unbuckled my belt for a moment, stood up, looked at my wife and then blurted out ....

Isn't that just like technology! You call the help desk and the first they they always ask is, did you turn the computer off and turn it back on to clear the problem!

Well, what I didn't realize that morning, about 90% of the occupants on board that aircraft were all business employees and quite obvious a great percentage of them had some association with Information Technology, because about 3/4 of everyone burst out laughing!

Immediately there was conversation going on and the lights came back on. Within the next few minutes we were in the air.

True story!

 

[Jayflight]

MSN

www.msn.com

Alaska Airlines restricted the aircraft from long flights over water to allow for the plane to return quickly to an airport if the warning light, which possibly indicated a pressurization problem, reappeared, National Transportation Safety Board chair Jennifer Homendy said during a news conference.

The warning light came on during flights on Dec. 7, Jan. 3 and Jan. 4. Homendy said she did not have all the details about the Dec. 7 incident but that the light came on during a flight on Jan. 3 and another on Jan. 4 after the plane had landed

Now United has found similar issues.

Boeing 737 Max 9 problems mount following Alaska and United Airlines incidents. Here’s what we know.

Alaska Airlines and United Airlines passengers faced major travel disruptions Monday after the Federal Aviation Administration forced the grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 9 airplanes. It comes after Alaska Airlines flight 1282 on Friday had to make an emergency landing shortly after takeoff...

www.aol.com

 

[Wasillaguy]

Here's a wild guess of what's going on, using the "follow the money" theory-
1. Certain airlines get fat contracts to fly illegals around. In return, those with controlling interest agree to buy X number of planes from Boeing.
2. Boeing knows the planes are sold, wants that revenue to hit the books, and rushes them out the door.

Probably much more going on, but you get the idea, something not good for the flying public and they don't care.

 

[UTTransplant]

i worked in aerospace for 30+ years, much of that on various Boeing projects; my company was a major supplier to Being. Boeing has totally lost the recipe they used to make the best commercial airplanes in the world. When they were run by a former engineer, safety was absolutely #1 on their commercial airplanes. I saw it again and again. They took no chances, and the airplanes were known as the safest ones in the industry. Then they were run by a regular financial money pusher. No more emphasis on safety as their #1 goal, but get it out quicker and cheaper. The thought that the Boeing I was proud to work with has made so many horrific decisions, as shown through the numerous 737Max disasters, is incredibly disturbing.

Oh, and Wasillaguy, take off your tin foil hat. Aicraft manufacturers sell worldwide, not just to folks “flying around illegals.” Gheesh!

 

[Alaskansnowbirds]

i worked in aerospace for 30+ years, much of that on various Boeing projects; my company was a major supplier to Being. Boeing has totally lost the recipe they used to make the best commercial airplanes in the world. When they were run by a former engineer, safety was absolutely #1 on their commercial airplanes. I saw it again and again. They took no chances, and the airplanes were known as the safest ones in the industry. Then they were run by a regular financial money pusher. No more emphasis on safety as their #1 goal, but get it out quicker and cheaper. The thought that the Boeing I was proud to work with has made so many horrific decisions, as shown through the numerous 737Max disasters, is incredibly disturbing.

I agree 100% and Boeing isn't the only company that's went to hell after the bean counters started running the company. It would be a long list.

I would put 98% of the blame for this incident on the Alaska Airlines maintenance supervisor who decided to allow this particular aircraft to fly with a known pressurization problem. To the best of my knowledge none of the other 737MAX9s has had any pressurization warnings or problems.

 

[Wasillaguy]

Alaska Air does not certify maintenance mechanics, the government does.
Here's a story from 2 years ago. Note it was Boeing engineers, not certified inspectors that brought the issue forward. Gov blames Boeing for not doing their job for them.
I know how this stuff works, I worked gov contracts my whole career too.

Boeing and its suppliers fall short on safety oversight, whistleblower report says

In a report by Democrats on the U.S. Senate Committee chaired by Washington's Sen. Maria Cantwell, seven whistleblowers outline fundamental problems with safety oversight in the aerospace industry.

www.seattletimes.com

 

[Larry N.]

I agree 100% and Boeing isn't the only company that's went to hell after the bean counters started running the company. It would be a long list.

Amen! And not just airliners/aircraft manufacturers, either. These range across many industries.

 

[Skookum]

Both Boeing and Alaska Airlines are publicly traded companies, so, yes, "it" actually is about profit. You think Boeing builds aircraft and Alaka flies planes, but actually, those things are a means to an end, to create value for the shareholders.

 

[Isaac-1]

Yeah, but Alaska Airlines is the one that announced they were in merger negotiations a few weeks ago

 

[UTTransplant]

I agree 100% and Boeing isn't the only company that's went to hell after the bean counters started running the company. It would be a long list.

I would put 98% of the blame for this incident on the Alaska Airlines maintenance supervisor who decided to allow this particular aircraft to fly with a known pressurization problem. To the best of my knowledge none of the other 737MAX9s has had any pressurization warnings or problems.

More problems have been found on planes from other airlines. All related to the “plug” for the safety exit. Incorrect bolt tightening. It will be interesting to see if it is an issue of workmanship or inadequate work instructions. Then again, they may find other issues too. This plan was basically brand new; it only started flying in November.

Alaska Air does not certify maintenance mechanics, the government does.
Here's a story from 2 years ago. Note it was Boeing engineers, not certified inspectors that brought the issue forward. Gov blames Boeing for not doing their job for them.
I know how this stuff works, I worked gov contracts my whole career too.

This issue is not a government contract; it is a regulatory issue. The FAA realized at least 35-40 years ago that aircraft are so complex that a single agency could not inspect every piece of paperwork itself. Instead it cooperatively worked with industry partners about processes and sampling techniques to adequately address safety. Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers senior regulatory and engineering staff were trained by FAA inspectors through a long period of oversight and supervision until they had demonstrated to the FAA they were trustworthy to evaluate safety. My company was part of that. We had Designated Engineering Representatives (DERs) that were authorized to approved certain aircraft design modifications. We even had flight test DERs who could approve entire cockpit designs for business and regional jets. And all the DERs I ever met from multiple companies took their work incredibly seriously. They were given a direct line to the CEO if they wanted to use it. All the trust generated over that long period of time was lost when Boeing deliberately withheld vital safety information about a new feature that no pilots trained on. DERs are on hold now, from what my friends still working tell me. Boeing lost the recipe, and it is their own fault they are in this mess.

Sorry for the book, but this is something I am truly passionate about. Safety of the flying public was absolutely #1 with all the engineers I ever worked with. To see that thrown away is obscene.

 

[Wasillaguy]

From lettuce to bridges to aircraft, the government taxes the crap out of us to provide "safety" and "certification" and "quality assurance", yet we have E-coli and broken steel beams and tail rudder jack screws and loose panel bolts and on and on.
If they're not responsible when crap gets stamped off, we should cut their funding and let the industries police themselves. At least they won't be able to hide behind "government approval" as their claim to righteousness.

 

[Jayflight]

Last night I listened to the head of the NTSB speak with a summary of the events, including the events beginning around the first of Dec. If there was a display of the don't care attitude on display, this was on display. There seemed to have been no urgency to have dealt with this.

Towards the end she spent a little bit of time praising the press for their coverage. Under my breath I had some words not worthy to print here. If you knew this problem was happening, its their job to pursue it to a complete and corrective resolution. There appears to be a total of 171 planes grounded.

While some like to site corporate profits as a motive for flying and scrimping on any and all construction standards, people do reply on air travel for normal daily business travel and many pre-booked vacations.

The airline industry is just another industry that is part of the economic engine, even if you live your life hating on private businesses. But listening to the director last night, anyone thinking clearly can conclude that if you wish something like this to be dealt with in a timely manner and minimize disruptions to peoples daily lives, that surely will not happen looking in the direction for the NTSB director for any oversight or correction.

We have a MIA transportation secretary that has zero experience in a job related to transportation. And this is constantly on display when we have transportation issues on display.


Someone eluded to why I may have some axe to grind with the airlines, well I have family that flies regularly in these types of planes. But I hate total incompetence and issues that just gets blown off as it its nothing but a mosquito as a bother. There is just no excuse, especially given the previous flaws with the Boeing large capacity planes.

 

[RRR]

i worked in aerospace for 30+ years, much of that on various Boeing projects; my company was a major supplier to Being. Boeing has totally lost the recipe they used to make the best commercial airplanes in the world. When they were run by a former engineer, safety was absolutely #1 on their commercial airplanes. I saw it again and again. They took no chances, and the airplanes were known as the safest ones in the industry. Then they were run by a regular financial money pusher. No more emphasis on safety as their #1 goal, but get it out quicker and cheaper. The thought that the Boeing I was proud to work with has made so many horrific decisions, as shown through the numerous 737Max disasters, is incredibly disturbing.

Oh, and Wasillaguy, take off your tin foil hat. Aicraft manufacturers sell worldwide, not just to folks “flying around illegals.” Gheesh!

He has been showing his raciest colors since I have been here.

 

[Wasillaguy]

If you're saying I've been racy, I guess I'll take that as a compliment.
If you've got a typo there and it's a personal attack, I'm going to have to defend myself and ask you demonstrate these "colors" I've been showing.
In the post referenced here, I refer to illegals, which is not a race.

 

[Skookum]

I don't think anyone lives their life on "hating private business". Some of us just accept that the motivation behind our economic model in this country is ultimately profit. It's necessary, and it also means, well, sometimes things happen for reasons of money and it's not safe/fair/just/whatever.

I'm not even sure what the whining about "illegals" is about, just more noise, just like somehow blaming the government. It's up to the manufacturer and maintainer to ensure safety.

 

[Wasillaguy]

I'm not even sure what the whining about "illegals" is about, just more noise, just like somehow blaming the government

Illegal aliens are being flown around the country by major airlines. There is no public exposure as to how this is funded, but it's certainly not by open competitive bid or we could see it.
So I suppose they draw a name out of a hat which airline gets contracts to move them? Which charity gets money to feed/clothe them? Which hotel chain houses them? Which company sells the cell phones supplied to them?
Call me crazy, but I suspect the lucky winners of these juicy contracts are obligated to scratch someone else's back in return for their windfall.

 

[Jayflight]

I don't think anyone lives their life on "hating private business". Some of us just accept that the motivation behind our economic model in this country is ultimately profit. It's necessary, and it also means, well, sometimes things happen for reasons of money and it's not safe/fair/just/whatever.

I'm not even sure what the whining about "illegals" is about, just more noise, just like somehow blaming the government. It's up to the manufacturer and maintainer to ensure safety.

Both the private sector and the public sector depends on profit. Its just that one sector actually produces a product and depends on improving their product and services in order to survive long term.

Without profit, not even the public sector would be paid, at least long term. So condemning one area of the economic engine is clearly not weighing the need and even the requirement for profit in any form.

But again listening to the press conference last night, it seems that Boeing is using components meant for multiple air frames. I wonder that after the airplanes are completed and flying and they know that the one particular area of the windows are an add on why they do not create a more rigid installation .

 

[Ex-Calif]

i worked in aerospace for 30+ years, much of that on various Boeing projects; my company was a major supplier to Being.

Me too - 41 years. In my final 10 years I was a senior supervising engineer and sat on the safety board. In my career I did 3 on site crash investigations. There is nothing more sobering then sitting in the daily briefing talking about the loss of life and how they lost their lives.

Every one of us puts wives, children, family and friends on commercial flights every day. I like to think there is no lack of integrity or winking when it comes to safety. When you actually look at the statistics it is the safest way to travel.

But airplanes just get more and more complicated to build. Mistakes are made. It is not surprising that root cause of failures is significantly due to human error vs. design, workmanship or other causes.

I will say that the MX has had a lot of issues. If I had to roll it into one theme it would be that leadership sets the culture. If profit is emphasized "more" than "excellent" engineering" then the scale is tipped. Late in my career the term "Better is the enemy of good" was a catch phrase.

Think about that. "Good enough" became the norm. It made me sick to my stomach and as I know a lot of the top guys in the industry (I grew up with them when they were lower level guys) - the tipping point was when lifelong engineers stopped getting top spots and the marketing and finance guys stepped in.

I don't profess to have any knowledge of what went wrong with this door plug. But I do trust there are serious safety engineers working on it and will determine root cause.

 

[ziplock]

I thought Melania flew private planes?

And?