Enlighten me on diesel pushers

[tedp]

So we've had class C gas motor homes in the past and are looking to step up to a class A. I seem to know my way around the gas class As from my previous experiences with the Cs. Now diesel pushers are another breed of cat (or Cummins)! We're looking for something in the 32' to 38' length. Our max budget is $100,000. I know condition is highly important.
So what do I look for in a DP?
Is Cummins the only way to go for an engine? I ask this because it seems that people think Cat engines are more expensive to repair.
Is 300 HP the minimum to look for in a pusher?
I see a lot of different models of the Allison transmission talked about. Is there a model that is superior to rest?
What chassis is desirable? I know that's probably a loaded questions like maybe Ford vs. Chev.
Is there an advantage to buying something that is pre def?
One of the reasons for us looking at a DP is I have struggled with sway and wind blowing us around in the class Cs. Other than going with a tag axle, is there a preferred suspension to look for?
Would a 32' DP tend to porpoise due to the short length.
Sorry for all the questions in one post but I'm kinda starting from scratch.

 

[Goodspike]

Sorry for all the questions in one post but I'm kinda starting from scratch.

No need to apologize for having thought out a good list of your questions!

The only one I can help you with is the last--the pre-DEF/Particle Filter diesels have less to go wrong, but they obviously will also be older, which can have an inverse effect on reliability (and not just engine reliability).  Pick your poison.  And speaking of poison, the pre-DEF/Particle Filter diesels will pollute a lot more.  Modern diesels are incredibly clean.

 

[jayc2640]

I can only tell you of my experience.  We had a 30' gasser and traded it for a 40' DP.  I had no knowledge of the differences when I bought the DP.  We found the DP handled better because of the larger wheels and longer wheelbase.  The noise while traveling was much less because the engine was at the rear.  We found the mileage per gallon was a little bit better, but fuel is a little bit more expensive.  Routine maintenance is more expensive, but has to be done less often.  Overall, I would say after 2 years ownership of a DP, that it is more expensive to operate, but we are happier with the experience.

 

[Goodspike]

We found the mileage per gallon was a little bit better, but fuel is a little bit more expensive.

The price of diesel is regional. Some places it's more and some less.  Also some stations try to jack up the price even in areas where it is cheaper.  In Washington state diesel is almost always cheaper than regular.

 

[Utclmjmpr]

300 Horse will get you where you wish and also tow,, it will depend on the total vehicle weight ratio to horsepower if you will be happy.
  You will not probably get into a tag axle unless the vehicle weight requires it, then the power will also have to go up to move that weight..  Most Cat powered coaches will have a rear radiator and they can be problematic and difficult to keep clean so often have heating problems,, the engines are fine..
  Allison transmissions are the best and mostly the only choice for a reason they get the job done with a high reliability rate and have to be mated to the correct horse power and torque at the builder level..
  To be happy with a purchase ,pay most of your attention to the floor plan and condition,, this is where a knowledgeable friend will be like gold..
  Don't worry much about mileage because the average of used will be about 8K per year of age or lower.. you won't wear one out if cared for..>>>Dan

 

[PancakeBill]

Side or rear radiator has more to do with the coach than the engine.  I have side radiator with a C10 385HP.  40' coach, and pre-def.  Keeping up with maintenance is most important. 

32-38', any particular reason?  Tags don't typically show up until 40'+.  Support more weight, but use up storage. 

As mentioned, pay real close attention to floorpan.

 

[Larry N.]

So what do I look for in a DP?

Floor plan, to start with -- very important that you are happy with this.

Is Cummins the only way to go for an engine? I ask this because it seems that people think Cat engines are more expensive to repair.

Either should do well for you. CAT hasn't made an engine for RVs (or for the road) since the late '00s, but they're good engines -- loved the one in my Beaver.

Is 300 HP the minimum to look for in a pusher?

That would depend mostly on the weight. In a rig that weighed around 25,000 lbs 300 would more than enough, but in a rig of 40K to 50K you'll want a lot more. The 525 HP CAT (C-13) in my Beaver was OK, but not overpowered for its 50,000 lbs. The 360HP Cummins in my Ventana is more than enough for its 36K lbs, actually giving slightly better performance (including when towing) than the Beaver had. So the neighborhood of 100 lbs/HP is pretty much "normal."

One of the reasons for us looking at a DP is I have struggled with sway and wind blowing us around in the class Cs. Other than going with a tag axle, is there a preferred suspension to look for?

That "blowing in the wind" is as much configuration as anything. The short rear overhang of most DPs gives much less of a lever for the wind (truck or nature) to push against than the much longer rear overhang of most gasser class A or C rigs.

Most  DPs have air suspension, which improves ride and handling vs springs, etc. The tag axle is rare under a 40' length for the rig, is on some 40' units, and is on just about all 43-45' units. It's there to handle weight and, compared to the same rig without it, actually reduces storage space. My Ventana at 38' has almost as much basement storage as my 45' Beaver did, though inside (cabin) storage was greater in the Beaver.

I see a lot of different models of the Allison transmission talked about. Is there a model that is superior to rest?

The different models are generally because they are built to handle a certain load range, with the 4000 on rigs like my Beaver was, the 3000 is on my Ventana, and others will generally be sized to match the rig they're on. There may be an exception somewhere, but the Allisons are generally the most rugged out there, all well suited to their rigs.

Would a 32' DP tend to porpoise due to the short length.

Probably not, except (like most vehicles) when on a road that has bumps at the "right" distance for that specific length of unit to do so -- I had a little of that on my 45' Beaver (not often thank goodness), I see it a little on my 38' Ventana, and I see it more frequently on many areas on my 22' F-150 pickup.

Not everyone agrees with me, but another factor (for me) when rig shopping is to get an Aqua Hot (or Oasis) hydronic system for furnace and hot water duties (some do engine block, as well). To my way of thinking it is superior to the propane furnace/water heater propane driven units.

A last caveat, when you get a DP, study the manuals that come with it. Some manuals are better than others, but the engine manuals, transmission manuals and whatever else they have will help you to both understand and to better care for your new rig, and especially learn about air brakes and about not lugging that diesel engine down (keeping the revs up, though the Allison and engine computer usually do OK with that).

 

[Larry N.]

Most Cat powered coaches will have a rear radiator and they can be problematic and difficult to keep clean so often have heating problems,, the engines are fine..

My Beaver (CAT) had a side radiator and my Ventana (Cummins) has a rear radiator, so it's rig specific, with higher end rigs tending towards the side unit.

 

[WILDEBILL308]

Welcome to the forum.
"We're looking for something in the 32' to 38' length. Our max budget is $100,000. I know condition is highly important."

First thing, don't get hung up on the short RV. Shorter than 38' you will be giving up lots of storage and useability/livability. There are not that many out there under 38' anyway especially in quality coaches and yes the ride isn't as good.

"Our max budget is $100,000. I know condition is highly important." You can get into a nice quality coach for that price. I will post a couple links to a couple interesting coaches at the end.

"Is there an advantage to buying something that is pre def?"
Yes I think so les problems and les maintenance. I looked for and bought a pre emission coach My 2008 has a 2007 chasey. That is fairly common in the RV world.

"One of the reasons for us looking at a DP is I have struggled with sway and wind blowing us around in the class Cs. Other than going with a tag axle, is there a preferred suspension to look for?"
There isn't that much difference in the suspensions. I will recommend you go test drive a Newmar with "Comfort Drive" I have it and like it. That  combined with my tag I don't know a truck is coming by till I see him. I don't feel it like I did when I had a "C" and I  don't  have a problem with cross winds like I use to.
Ok here is some RV porn.
https://www.nirvc.com/Sales/Inventory/4634A#morePhotos

The next coach is a Fortravel If you could squeeze your budget just a little The new replacement price on this coach is over $700,000++ This is a serious luxury coach

https://www.motorhomesoftexas.com/Pre-owned-Inventory-2007-Foretravel-Motorhome-Phenix-45-Phenix-8753756?ref=list

https://www.motorhomesoftexas.com/Pre-owned-Inventory-2004-Monaco-Motorhome-Diplomat-40-PAQ-Monaco-Diplomat-9080434?ref=list

https://www.pplmotorhomes.com/used-rvs-for-sale/diesel-motorhomes/2005-newmar-dutch-star_rv-45257

https://www.pplmotorhomes.com/used-rvs-for-sale/diesel-motorhomes/2007-newmar-mountain-aire_rv-43987
I have a 2008 love it.

https://www.pplmotorhomes.com/used-rvs-for-sale/diesel-motorhomes/2006-travel-supreme_rv-45375

Well that ought to keep you busey for a while. Let me know what you think about them.
Look at some of the others on the different sights
Bill

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Some good advice from Larry & WildeBill.

A few additional or expanded thoughts....

You don't get to choose a tag axle as a feature. They are employed only when necessary to carry the weight of the coach and rarely appear unless the coach GVWR exceeds 34,000 lbs. Few coaches under 38 ft would ever have the need.

The RV industry rule of thumb is that a coach needs at least 1 Hp per every 100 lbs of GVWR. Better yet, 1 per every 100 of GCWR (combined coach and tow).  Use the 1:100 ratio as a figure of merit.  Everybody likes more Hp and torque, but diesels produce their rated horsepower & torque at low rpms where it is most usable, so you don't need to obsess  over ratings.  Don't get bogged down in engine brand or model differences - just about any other factor is far more important to your enjoyment.

The most desirable transmissions are the very robust Alison 3000 and its big brother the 4000. The lighter duty Allison 2000 series is adequate, but the 3000  is very capable and darn near bullet-proof.

Chassis isn't so much a matter of brand as how well the coach manufacturer configured it for the size of the coach. A DP chassis is super-expensive, so low end coach models are likely to low-ball the chassis to keep the price down.  Even among the better coach brands there is often one model that skimps on the chassis in order to produce a low price-leader. Some possible indicators are a shorter wheelbase, lower GVWR, and the Allison 2000 transmission instead of 3000.

My preference would be an older but high-end (i.e. higher original MSRP) coach model. They will be fully featured and better built than their lower-priced sisters, and less likely to be skimpy under the covers.  You can buy a darn nice 2003-2006 (pre-emissions) coach for well under $100k and there are plenty of well-cared for examples around if you take the time to look. American Coach, Newmar Dutch Star/Essex/Mountainaire, Monaco Signature/Executive/Dynasty, Country Coach, Holiday Navigator/Imperial/Scepter, Travel Supreme and Foretravel would be among my top choices. That doesn't mean others are no good, but the odds are more favorable.

 

[tedp]

Thanks for all the good info guys! Just to clarify some things, I'm looking at the max of 38' just because of the room I have at home to store it and we do go to Canada (when the border is open) quite often and that's the biggest that will fits where we camp. I am not looking for a tag axle just asking if any chassis Freightliner etc. is better. Gary, I see a lot of Winnebago Journeys out there for sale, are they a good coach?

 

[JD Sharp]

I agree with Gary as preference to higher end and older. Our first DP was Beaver and very well built from top to bottom. You don't have to select an engine or transmission as manufacturer has already engineered all that. And when you get ready to get a newer RV (which you will), resale is much better because of reputation of manufacturer.