Finding an honest dealer; the saga continues

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irvsiegel

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? ?$79,000.? That was their price.? They couldn't go lower than that.? That was their cost.? How come, I asked, the sheet you gave me showed an MSRP that was $3000 higher than what the manufacturer states??

"Oh," the salesman says, "That's because it's on the Workhorse chassis.? It's $3,000 more than the Ford."?

"Okay," I tell him, "I've got good news for you.? Get me one on the Ford chassis and I'll pay $76,000, assuming that it has the same optional equipment installed."

"The Ford will have aluminum wheels instead of stainless steel."

"No problem.? It's worth it to me to save the $3000."

"What color would you like?"

"Mocha."

"I'll find one for you."

"So for $76,000 I'll get the same coach except that it will have a Ford chassis instead of the Workhorse.? Does it come with full fuel and propane?"

"Yes.? We'd even fill the fresh water tank, but we have well water here, so you'd probably be happier if we just flush the tank, check for leaks, and leave it empty for you to fill yourself with city water.? I'll call you Friday to let you know when we expect it to arrive."

"Great!? Have a wonderful Thanksgiving and I'll talk to you on Friday."

"You have a great Thanksgiving too."

? ?Sounds like we have a deal here, right?? A contract, even.? Well, a few minutes later he calls me back to tell me that his boss won't approve it.? The price will be $79,000 for either chassis.

? ?"Sorry we can't do business.? I was looking forward to buying that coach.? Goodbye."? I hung up.

? ?Do you think that I'll ever hear from that dealer again?? What is with these people??!!
 

Woody

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RV dealers are in businessto make money, thats that bottom line. They promise anything and guarantee nothing. That the real world. Remember the old line that "my boss won't let me make this deal" ??
At this time of year they are the most vulnerable, hang tight to your numbers and make them come to you.

Woody
 

scottydl

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If you DON'T hear back from them, unfortunately it's because there's another sucker who WILL pay the $79k.  Just don't be that person no matter what.  Stick to your guns and you'll find the deal you want.  I'm thinking you'll have a much easier time buying something 1-3 years old from a private seller, unless you're absolutely determined to purchase brand new.
 

29er

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2845 Sorrel Street, Las Vegas, NV 89146
"i was looking forward to buying that coach"  A good deal is when the customer is happy.
You are getting to wrapped around the axle about this MSRP business.

The MSRP is a lie from the factory and additionally it is a lie from the dealer. It's a price from which they can discount (particulary motor homes) and make you feel good. One dealer showed me the famous "invoice" alledgedly what they paid for it from the factory. I told him to E-mail or fax it to me and in about 20 minutes (after using photoshop) I would send it back showing he only paid ten dollars for the coach. So much for MSRP's and invoices.

Is three thousand dollars really a rip off? Certainly you have spent endless hours and time looking,  and found many reasons for not considering other coaches. Apparently this coach really struck your fancy. Ask yourself why?

As for going back to the dealer and saying "Lets close the deal", let me assure you that eating crow is not too bad, just add salt and pepper. 

 

irvsiegel

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Benicia, CA
29er said:
"i was looking forward to buying that coach" A good deal is when the customer is happy.
You are getting to wrapped around the axle about this MSRP business.

The MSRP is a lie from the factory and additionally it is a lie from the dealer. It's a price from which they can discount (particulary motor homes) and make you feel good. One dealer showed me the famous "invoice" alledgedly what they paid for it from the factory. I told him to E-mail or fax it to me and in about 20 minutes (after using photoshop) I would send it back showing he only paid ten dollars for the coach. So much for MSRP's and invoices.

Is three thousand dollars really a rip off? Certainly you have spent endless hours and time looking, and found many reasons for not considering other coaches. Apparently this coach really struck your fancy. Ask yourself why?

As for going back to the dealer and saying "Lets close the deal", let me assure you that eating crow is not too bad, just add salt and pepper.

? ?The point is that the salesman *agreed* to sell me the coach for $76,000 and even asked me what color I wanted!? Then later he called back to say he couldn't do it.? When a deal is made, it's the person who backs out of it who should be eating crow.? We had an agreement, maybe even a contract, although I don't know what the local law is regarding an oral contract for a motorhome.

? ?I don't particularly care what a dealer pays for an RV.? I told a different dealer a couple of weeks ago (after he told me that if he sold the RV to me at the price I was offering, he would be losing money on it) that sometimes it's better to take a small loss now rather than a bigger loss later.? Motorhomes are perishable items, although not to the extent of fruits and vegetables or motel rooms.? When a coach sits on a dealer's lot, that dealer is going to lose more money the longer that it sits there.?

? Yes, dealers lie.? I'm looking for an honest dealer who has the motorhome that I want.? I refuse to buy from a dishonest dealer, even if that means I don't get the motorhome I want.? I *want* a motorhome, but I don't *need* a motorhome.? I think that dealers sometimes forget that motorhomes are a luxury and not a necessity.

Irv

? ?

? ?
 

Shayne

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Looking at it that way  You'll be looking for a long long time.  No such thing as a completely Honest RV or auto dealer.  I do know of indiviuals in the industry that I trust  However, they are individuals and the owner of the dealership has the final yea or nay.  Was in the busines of RV and auto Sales for years including Sales Mgr for most of the time.    I trust no Dealer  Perhaps a individual in his employ but even he can only do so much.  Thinking the way you do  I say find another hobby cuz  I believe you're a lost sole in this project.  JMHO
 

irvsiegel

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Benicia, CA
Shayne said:
Looking at it that way You'll be looking for a long long time. No such thing as a completely Honest RV or auto dealer. I do know of indiviuals in the industry that I trust However, they are individuals and the owner of the dealership has the final yea or nay. Was in the busines of RV and auto Sales for years including Sales Mgr for most of the time. I trust no Dealer Perhaps a individual in his employ but even he can only do so much. Thinking the way you do I say find another hobby cuz I believe you're a lost sole in this project. JMHO

? ?I *have* been looking for a long, long time.? I don't mind that.? The more that I look, the more that I learn, and knowledge is power.? When I do purchase an RV it will come after I've done my homework (which includes incorporating all of the opinions and advice that I'm getting here in the RV Forum) so that I'll be keeping the negative "surprises" to a minimum.? When a dealer promises me something now I get it in writing (which can include an email or a FAX).

? ?I intend to be happy with whatever purchase I make, or to be happy making no purchase at all.? My wife loves cruises.? We've been on two this year, to the Bahamas and to Tortola and Bermuda.? We can spend our retirement money cruising or RVing.? Both bring us pleasure.? I think that RV dealers would serve their own best interests if they realized that they are competing against *all* leisure time activities, not just other RV dealers.? If they don't clean up their act they'll soon find that more and more people won't put up with their dishonesty and deception and will turn to other pursuits.

Irv
 

Jackliz

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Irv,
In my opinion, you are doing just fine. Stick to your guns. I looked for our Wanderlodge for 6 years before I found the right one!!  ;)

Regards,
Liz
 

motojavaphil

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Rio Rancho, New Mexico
We went thru a little gem in the recent past.  Talked to the salesman, made a verbal contract, and had his cell number.  We went home, unloaded our stuff and I called him prior to leaving for their dealership.  I asked him to repeat the deal, which he did, and I asked him if it was a green which he said yes.  Away we went for our 100+ mile round trip only to be told upon arrival the deal had been nixed.

The moral of the story is to have it in writting before you leave and have him fax it to you if you are out of area.  I do not have time for this type of crap nor do you I am sure. 

Good luck on your hunting...Phil
 

buckle823

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May 16, 2006
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183
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Michigan
Good job on killing the deal. In my opinion, RV dealers are some of the nastiest liars in sales. Much worse than auto dealers, probably because there are way more players in the auto industry, and you can get a car on just about every block now. If we all just give in to these scumbags, nothing will change.
 

irvsiegel

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Benicia, CA
29er said:
I wish you many happy, successful, and fun filled cruises.

? ?Thank you very much.? Cruising is like RVing, in many ways.? You don't have to pack and unpack your things more than once; you get to meet many nice people; there are many activities to choose from; there's a wide range of cruises to choose from, from very inexpensive up through unbelievably expensive;it's a vacation that the whole family can enjoy; etc., etc., etc.? It's a delightful way to take a vacation.?

Irv
 

Shayne

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From what I gathered here after reading this thread 6 different times to make sure I got the drift of it, the problem is not with the unit nor the price, but the dealer or salesman changed the price of the tow dolly causing this thread. He therefore doesn't trust the dealer and stated he wanted an honest dealer.  This is why I said----give it up---you won't ever find one---cuz there is no such thing.  My statement was not based on the unit, the price, nor his process of looking for what he wanted.  I'ts evident he found that, just not the honest dealer.  One or two things show here, either he doesn't really want the RV or he's more interested in finding an honest dealer than making a deal.  With there being no such thing as an honest dealer, you either buy what you think is a good deal or you pass, the same for the dolly.  This thread co=incides with a previous thread, where the guy wanted to know the dealers invoice price.  Well let's face it, It's none of his damn business, if you don't like the price don't buy.  Would the individual, should he own a company, show what he truly paid for something, should he be trying to sell it for a profit.  I think not.  That is just plain ole dumb buisness.    Read into what you want from this statement but that's the way I see it.  Personally I don't think the guy knows what he wants and should stay with criuising the 7 seas that his wife enjoys.  JMHO
 

Tom

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Irv,

Sounds like you have a blast on cruises. We have friends who take several cruises every year and just love them. My wife dragged me kicking and screaming on a cruise and I hated it for reasons too numerous and too long to repeat here. Clearly, it's different strokes for different folks, but I much prefer RVing or cruising in our own boat to a commercial cruise. You're right about packing and unpacking only once, although I prefer to pack/unpack or load/unload at my leisure and not be herded like cattle on and off a cruise ship.

Having bought numerous cars, boats and RVs, I can only say that a dealer is going to make money and won't leave money on the table. It's up to the buyer to do his/her homework ahead of time and be prepared to make the best deal or walk away. The salesperson can (and often will) promise whatever you want to hear, but the salesperson doesn't make pricing decisions.

Some years ago our VP of sales at a high tech company hired a "motivational speaker" for an international sales conference. The guy knew nothing about our industry and usually teaches auto sales people. He did a skit where he played the roles of buyer, salesman and sales manager at an auto dealership. At the end of his talk, the guy sitting next to me said he didn't hear a word because I was howling with laughter all the way through. OTOH sales guys who had flown in from overseas sat there wondering what it was all about, since they hadn't experienced buying a car in the U.S.
 

irvsiegel

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Shayne said:
From what I gathered here after reading this thread 6 different times to make sure I got the drift of it, the problem is not with the unit nor the price, but the dealer or salesman changed the price of the tow dolly causing this thread. He therefore doesn't trust the dealer and stated he wanted an honest dealer. This is why I said----give it up---you won't ever find one---cuz there is no such thing. My statement was not based on the unit, the price, nor his process of looking for what he wanted. I'ts evident he found that, just not the honest dealer. One or two things show here, either he doesn't really want the RV or he's more interested in finding an honest dealer than making a deal. With there being no such thing as an honest dealer, you either buy what you think is a good deal or you pass, the same for the dolly. This thread co=incides with a previous thread, where the guy wanted to know the dealers invoice price. Well let's face it, It's none of his damn business, if you don't like the price don't buy. Would the individual, should he own a company, show what he truly paid for something, should he be trying to sell it for a profit. I think not. That is just plain ole dumb buisness. Read into what you want from this statement but that's the way I see it. Personally I don't think the guy knows what he wants and should stay with criuising the 7 seas that his wife enjoys. JMHO

Shayne,

? ?I think that you've got this thread mixed up with one on tow dolly inflation.? In that other thread I mentioned the price of the tow dolly going up from $1300 to $2900.? In *this* thread I mentioned the price of the coach going up from $76000 to $79000.? I *did* buy what I thought was a good deal, at $76,000, but then the salesman said "no deal."? So, after the price of the coach going up by $3000 and the price of the dolly going up by $1300, I began to suspect the dealer's honesty.

? ?I never said that I wanted to see the dealer's invoice price.? In *that* thread (which concerned a different dealership than the above-mentioned one) I said that I wanted to see the *Manufacturer's* Suggested Retail Price, broken down into what was standard and what options were installed by the manufacturer on the coach.? It wasn't so much for the money, but to see what I was *getting* for my money.? It's kind of difficult to compare one coach to the other if you don't know what's installed on the coach.? The salesman said that he didn't have the MSRP sheet for that coach.? Instead, he took the brochure and circled the optional items that were installed.? He made a least one mistake that I know of.? I called the manufacturer and got the information from them.? When I added up the suggested retail price of the coach, plus all the options, it came to about $13,000 less than what the dealer had said.? Naturally, I inquired about that.? Did I make a mistake in addition?? Were there other options added to the coach that I had left out?? I just wanted to know why there was a difference.? (I have an accounting degree.? The numbers have to add up.)? The sales manager was unbelievably rude and inconsiderate, and refused to answer my question.? He finally told us to leave and that he wouldn't sell us an RV.

? I've purchased many automobiles from dealers in my lifetime, and never had problems like this.? I've also purchased one RV from a dealer, and had no problems whatsoever.? Considering how I've been treated, it's a wonder to me that dealers sell RVs to *anybody*!? Indeed, I've discovered in my search that there are new 2005 coaches sitting on dealers' lots.? Something is seriously wrong with this industry.? I refuse to help perpetuate the problem.? Either I will find a dealer who's honest, or I won't purchase an RV.? I have other uses for $80,000+ that will bring me as much pleasure as a new RV.? I still *want* a new RV, but I don't *need* a new RV.? If I can find a dealer who's honest and has what I want at a reasonable price, I'm ready to purchase it.

Irv

 

Tom

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You have it right Irv - it's your money and you can do exactly as you please with it.
 

Shayne

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Exactly? ?and that was my point all along here, there is no such thing as an Honest Dealer, PERIOD.? The invoice statement was a comparison to another thread, not you.? Sorry if you misread my statement.? ?If you are looking for an honest dealer, you will never buy an RV.? ?If you find one you like and like the price, that's the name of the game.? Same with the Dolly.? All dealers are the same? They get every penny they can and will let you walk rather than come down.? ?It's just their make up.? ?
 

Betty Brewer

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Shayne said:
there is no such thing as an Honest Dealer, PERIOD.?

Hey,
Call me naive or Pollyanna, but I refuse to believe there are absolutely No honest dealers. It may take searching and a commitment but I still believe the human condition has some  good souls  who make a living in sales.  We recently purchased a  little used pick up truck from a huge  Chevy dealer. Every aspect of the deal was as reported via  the INTERNET.  The WOMAN was knowledgeable, personable, kept her word to the letter and we had a wonderful experience with our new purchase.  We have purchased a three previous RV's and in each case felt we were treated with fairness and honesty so I think there are good people. just my opinion and my experience.

Betty
 

Wendy

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THANK YOU BETTY!!! Add me to the Pollyanna group. I can't believe that an entire profession is filled with crooks and dishonest people (not even lawyers). We have bought more new and used cars than I can remember and a bunch of RVs of various sizes/classes and have ALWAYS been treated fairly and with utmost honesty.

Wendy
 

Tom

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wendycoke said:
I can't believe that an entire profession is filled with crooks and dishonest people....

Wendy/Betty,

Just for clarification, nothing in my comments should be misinterpreted as me saying that anyone is dishonest. The fact is that dealerships, like any business, have to make money to survive, while the buyer always wants the lowest price. Add to this mix the convoluted price/markup/discount/kickback/etc stuff that goes on in the auto and RV industries and it's no wonder that some buyers feel the way they do.

What I fail to understand in the case under discussion here is why there was apparently no written contract and why anyone would think there was closure on the deal without such a contract. I've never heard of verbal contracts in these industries but, even if there was such a thing, the salesperson is not empowered to make such deals.

In the 'motivational speaker' example I gave earlier, it was very clear to me that sales folks are taught to tell the customer what they want to hear. Most, but not all, sales folks don't have a clue about the product they're selling, but the ones who can convey the impression that they do can usually make higher commissions through higher sales. No disrespect meant to sales people, it's what they're trained to do.
 

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