Francis Scott Key bridge, Baltimore, MD

[Onyrlef]

In todays international political climate, I understand why the crew makeup would be questioned. All it would take is one bad actor to sabotage the electric system to start this. I am surprised the powers that be discounted terrorism so quickly without even being on the ship, rescue is our highest priority right now they said. No multitasking in the team? Everyone is not a diver or boat operator. Seems some investigators could have gotten to the boat before any possible evidence could be tampered with.

I don't normally think conspiracy first, and not there, nor familiar with container ship operations, but those questions sure come to mind.

The ship was having mechanical issues while at the pier which they apparently thought they’d resolved. The NTSB has the ship’s black box which also has the voice communications in the wheelhouse.

 

[John From Detroit]

Between this and the Suez canal incident a couple years ago, I'd say they have some serious issues with control and safety systems that did not exist in the past. If these are newer ships or older ships retrofitted with the latest, maybe the latest is not the greatest.
That bridge has seen 50 years of ships passing under it. The Suez has had who knows how many thousands of transits without a problem so severe. Something has changed, and not in a good way.

Yes there have been major changes at least in the USA but I do not know if they apply to this ship.

One change is a political hot topic. and likely had nothing to do with this disaster so I'll skip it.

The other is "Cost cutting to maximize profits" The problem is not everyone knows how to properly do that. A friend of mine worked for a couple of the Big-3 auto companies. This applies to Chrysler .
They had an automated machine that often failed requiring repair. Well finally they entered into a contract with as I recall Castrol, yes the oil company.. .They changed the oil and every period of time came in and tested and if needed changed the oil. (lubricants) and the machine ran for years with no failures. Well when Chrysler was sold the new owners looked at that "Expensive and uneeded contract" with Castrol and cancelled it.. Machine failed within six months requiring even more expensive repairs. Turns out regular maintenance was less expensive. But did they learn and go back to Castrol hat in hand ... NOPE.

Many companies have cut back on Maintenance saying "Fix it when it breaks" instead of "Take care of it so it does not break" The result is often higher cost and sometimes disasters (Though not normally this bad) all to save a buck... usually they end up spending more.

Now I'm not saying that applies in this case. But I'm betting this is going to be on the mind of the investigators. That's for sure.

 

[LarsMac]

I think that the early statements were along the lines of "there are currently no indications of terrorism or foul play."

Terrorist would have tried for the most devastating event, like During Rush hour, or the like.

The latest I heard was that the ship had been going through some fairly major engine maintenance while in port.

Perhaps they should have run it around in the bay for a while for a Smoke test, before heading out.

 

[Onyrlef]

I think that the early statements were along the lines of "there are currently no indications of terrorism or foul play."

Terrorist would have tried for the most devastating event, like During Rush hour, or the like.

The latest I heard was that the ship had been going through some fairly major engine maintenance while in port.

Perhaps they should have run it around in the bay for a while for a Smoke test, before heading out.

Those ships are restricted to the channel . That’s why it’s aground now. Besides, that ship can’t leave the dock w/o a harbor pilot and tugs for which they have to schedule and pay.

 

[Rene T]

How can it be aground in 50’ of water. I didn’t know there were tubs attached to it.

 

[Lou Schneider]

My first thought on seeing the video of the bridge collapse was why were the piers on the bridge so vulnerable? They had essentially zero protection against the possibility of a ship hitting them. Usually bridges in shipping lanes have concrete bumpers or dolphins around them to take the brunt of an impact. The Key bridge didn't. It has ships this size passing through several times a day. Seems protecting the bridge should have been considered as part of the port development that attracted these large cargo ships.

 

[Oldgator73]

My first thought on seeing the video of the bridge collapse was why were the piers on the bridge so vulnerable? They had essentially zero protection against the possibility of a ship hitting them. Usually bridges in shipping lanes have concrete bumpers or dolphins around them to take the brunt of an impact. The Key bridge didn't. It has ships this size passing through several times a day. Seems protecting the bridge should have been considered as part of the port development that attracted these large cargo ships.

This bridge was constructed in the 70’s. Bumpers or dolphins were not mandatory at that time. To add them later was deemed too expensive or difficult.

 

[Onyrlef]

It's aground because it's not in the ship channel.

 

[Onyrlef]

The bridge, a classic style steel arch design while being only 50 years old looks like something from 100 years ago. A suspension or cable stay bridge could have had a center span much wider than the ship channel and wouldn't need protection around the towers. There were ships plenty big enough in the 70's to have taken out that bridges center span piers, especially with a main span of 366 meters centered over a ~300 meter ship channel.

 

[TonyL]

Kind of puts messing up backing a fifth wheel into a site in perspective.

 

[Ohiosnowbird]

That bridge has seen 50 years of ships passing under it. The Suez has had who knows how many thousands of transits without a problem so severe. Something has changed, and not in a good way.

I read a comment on an article where someone, who claimed to be in the tug business, said that there should have been 2 tugs accompanying that ship but that transportation budgets had been cut locally and federally by 40% thus a reduction in the ability to provide the tugboats.

Kind of a “I heard that he said he heard something she said” thing, but food for thought.

How many harbors have you been in and observed busy tugboat activity in the past?

Where were the tugboats one wonders?

Recently seen on our last trip Pendleton Bend Dumas AR:

 

[Onyrlef]

I read a comment on an article where someone, who claimed to be in the tug business, said that there should have been 2 tugs accompanying that ship but that transportation budgets had been cut locally and federally by 40% thus a reduction in the ability to provide the tugboats.

Kind of a “I heard that he said he heard something she said” thing, but food for thought.

How many harbors have you been in and observed busy tugboat activity in the past?

Where were the tugboats one wonders?

Recently seen on our last trip Pendleton Bend Dumas AR:

View attachment 172052

That’s a push boat or tow boat, it has what are called two push knees on a squared off bow for pushing barges. A tugboat has a conventionally shaped bow and doesn’t ordinarily push barges, but it can, it tows them using what’s called a hawser. Tugs are also what assist ships in and out of berths. Ordinarily once the ship is away from the dock and underway the tugs are no longer needed, even in crowded ship channels. I worked in the Houston Ship Channel, inbound and outbound ships even in the crowded inner ship channel (Green’s Bayou, Deer Park) area are on their own, but have a pilot onboard. On outbound ships the pilot stays on board until the ship reaches the sea buoy, that’s where they board inbound ships, they ride to and from the ships on a “Pilot Boat” ( the Pilot Boat runs along side the ship and the pilot jumps off either onto a ladder or into an opening in the hull, a pretty hair raising operation in seas).The ships owners btw., pay for the tugs and the pilots, it has nothing to do with the DOT, the Fed, or in this case the City of Baltimore. The pilot is the boss however and the tugs don’t depart until he releases them. It would have been highly unusual to see tugs hanging on to an outbound or inbound ship which was not in the inner harbor. Both the harbor tugs and the harbor pilots are independentely owned separate operations, but they operate under the Port Authority. “ Moran” is the big boy in harbor tug operations, especially on the East Coast.

 

[Ohiosnowbird]

That’s a push boat or tow boat, it has what are called two push knees on a squared off bow for pushing barges. A tugboat has a conventionally shaped bow and doesn’t ordinarily push barges, but it can, it tows them using what’s called a hawser. Tugs are also what assist ships in and out of berths. Ordinarily once the ship is away from the dock and underway the tugs are no longer needed, even in crowded ship channels. I worked in the Houston Ship Channel, inbound and outbound ships even in the crowded inner ship channel (Green’s Bayou, Deer Park) area are on their own, but have a pilot onboard. On outbound ships the pilot stays on board until the ship reaches the sea buoy. The ships owners btw., pay for the tugs and the pilots, it has nothing to do with the DOT, the Fed, or in this case the City of Baltimore. The pilot is the boss however and the tugs don’t depart until he releases them. It would have been highly unusual to see tugs hanging on to an outbound or inbound ship which was not in the inner harbor. Both the harbor tugs and the harbor pilots are independentely owned separate operations, but they operate under the Port Authority. “ Moran” is the big boy in harbor tug operations, especially on the East Coast.

Interesting. Thanks for that insight. When we were sailing I just recall seeing the smaller boats tagging along with the larger ones. And you’re right about my photo, it pushed the individual sections of a pretty large barge. Fun to watch.

 

[Rene T]

I’ve seen barges with a pie shaped wedge cut out of the aft end of the barge and the bow of a standard tug boat fits into that wedge hole. Then lines are run from each corner of the aft end of the tug boat to the corners of the barge

 

[Skookum]

Kind of puts messing up backing a fifth wheel into a site in perspective.

I think it puts most bad days into perspective!

I read a comment on an article where someone, who claimed to be in the tug business, said that there should have been 2 tugs accompanying that ship but that transportation budgets had been cut locally and federally by 40% thus a reduction in the ability to provide the tugboats.

Kind of a “I heard that he said he heard something she said” thing, but food for thought.

How many harbors have you been in and observed busy tugboat activity in the past?

Where were the tugboats one wonders?

Recently seen on our last trip Pendleton Bend Dumas AR:

If you're going to try a political spin, at least post something that backs up the supposed heresay. Last I recall, the government was almost shut down again this week over attempts to cut services even more. Keep up the good work.

 

[LarsMac]

From Ohiosnobird: "I read a comment on an article where someone, who claimed to be in the tug business, said that there should have been 2 tugs accompanying that ship but that transportation budgets had been cut locally and federally by 40% thus a reduction in the ability to provide the tugboats."

They were out away from the harbor area, in open channel and under their own power by the time they are close to the bridge.

The problem is to understand why the rudder was not responding, and why they lost power.

The camera must be at Fort Carroll.

The big puff of smoke that everybody points out was when the engines re-started. So, that suggests that they lost power from engine failure. Why was there no auxiliary power to maintain some basic operation, like Steering?
Engine failed, Steering locked up, engine restarted, but they could not change course quickly enough and then power failed, again.

It is going to come down to what the investigation on the ship turns up.

 

[Onyrlef]

"I read a comment on an article where someone, who claimed to be in the tug business, said that there should have been 2 tugs accompanying that ship but that transportation budgets had been cut locally and federally by 40% thus a reduction in the ability to provide the tugboats."

They were out away from the harbor area, in open channel and under their own power by the time they are close to the bridge.

The problem is to understand why the rudder was not responding, and why they lost power.

The camera must be at Fort Carroll.

The big puff of smoke that everybody points out was when the engines re-started. So, that suggests that they lost power from engine failure. Why was there no auxiliary power to maintain some basic operation, like Steering?
Engine failed, Steering locked up, engine restarted, but they could not change course quickly enough and then power failed, again.

It is going to come down to what the investigation on the ship turns up.

I worked in ship channels from Mobile to Corpus Christi and have never seen harbor tugs alongside a ship on a routine transit of a ship channel. There aren’t enough harbor tugs for that in any case, nor are they necessary. And as said before, transportation budgets have nothing to do with pilots and harbor tugs, the ships pay for those services. That’s just one of the dozens of ridiculous and largely politically motivated conspiracy theories being circulated on social media.

 

[Onyrlef]

I’ve seen barges with a pie shaped wedge cut out of the aft end of the barge and the bow of a standard tug boat fits into that wedge hole. Then lines are run from each corner of the aft end of the tug boat to the corners of the barge

Those are articulated tug barges, or notch barges. They’re really like a ships hull and are commonly sea going, where most towboats and tug boats, including most harbor tugs, are confined to the inland waterways. Those cables run from the boat to the notch barge are operated by huge hydraulic winches and keep the tug and barge monolithic.

 

[NY_Dutch]

Those are articulated tug barges, or notch barges. They’re really like a ships hull and are commonly sea going, where most towboats and tug boats, including most harbor tugs, are confined to the inland waterways. Those cables run from the boat to the notch barge are operated by huge hydraulic winches and keep the tug and barge monolithic.

I read up on a notch barge & tug pair that passed our campsite at Robert Moses State Park on the St Lawrence Seaway shore. The barge and tug had been paired since the early 90's when both were built. One of the comments to the listing said the only time they've been separated was for maintenance.

 

[LarsMac]

I worked in ship channels from Mobile to Corpus Christi and have never seen harbor tugs alongside a ship on a routine transit of a ship channel. There aren’t enough harbor tugs for that in any case, nor are they necessary. And as said before, transportation budgets have nothing to do with pilots and harbor tugs, the ships pay for those services. That’s just one of the dozens of ridiculous and largely politically motivated conspiracy theories being circulated on social media.

I thought that, by the time the ship reached the channel near the bridge, the Pilots would have already turned over to the crew, and departed.