Hydrogen/Propane vs EV

[TheBar]

Hydrogen solves the problems with EV but hydrogen has not been available. But yesterday the White House announced we are investing $7 billion in new hydrogen hubs across the US. Yesterday MSN posted an article on how Toyota, the world's biggest automaker, may challenge the EV market with hydrogen powered cars. And there is a possibility to convert existing ICE engines to hydrogen. And there is renewed interest in converting trucks to propane which is an easier conversion.

 

[Skookum]

Wait 'til the "grid can't handle it" people see how much energy is required to produce hydrogen, and how much energy it takes to produce a hydrogen-powered vehicle.

 

[gwinger]

Wait 'til the "grid can't handle it" people see how much energy is required to produce hydrogen, and how much energy it takes to produce a hydrogen-powered vehicle.

The problem with EV's is the fact that manufacturing the batteries is a high pollution process, plus the mining of lithium causes more toxic waste. Charging the batteries uses KW of electric, more than your house uses in the same time period, and disposing of the batteries is another pollution problem. Toxic waste dumps being created.

 

[Skookum]

The problem with EV's is the fact that manufacturing the batteries is a high pollution process, plus the mining of lithium causes more toxic waste. Charging the batteries uses KW of electric, more than your house uses in the same time period, and disposing of the batteries is another pollution problem. Toxic waste dumps being created.

The problem with EV's is that there's a populace who is willing to believe everything negative and false perpetuated about them while lending a myopic view to other solutions which have just as many drawbacks. All the while, refusing to compare the environmental and geopolitical impact of perpetuating the ICV.

I explained one drawback of hydrogen vehicles and you replied with what you think the problem with EV's is. You do you.

 

[Kirk]

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

I moved the thread to Shade Tree because any potential use in RVs is just conjecture at this point. Ditto for EV RV too.

 

[DonTom]

The problem with EV's is that there's a populace who is willing to believe everything negative and false perpetuated about them while lending a myopic view to other solutions which have just as many drawbacks.

It is a little more polluting to build an EV than a gas car, but overall, the EV is MUCH cleaner when everything is taken into consideration.

IMO, this guy explains it all very well:

 

[Skookum]

Here's a video I enjoyed on the recycling of EV (and other types) of batteries. The fact that there is money in doing so makes me believe the accusations of "toxic waste dumps" full of used EV batteries is pure misinformation.

 

[Onyrlef]

The problem with EV's is that there's a populace who is willing to believe everything negative and false perpetuated about them while lending a myopic view to other solutions which have just as many drawbacks. All the while, refusing to compare the environmental and geopolitical impact of perpetuating the ICV.

I explained one drawback of hydrogen vehicles and you replied with what you think the problem with EV's is. You do you.

Apparently you're unaware researchers at Exxon Mobil have discovered evidence they harvest the eyes of kittens to manufacture EV batteries and everytime an EV battery is disposed of an angel in heaven loses its wings.

 

[DonTom]

The fact that there is money in doing so makes me believe the accusations of "toxic waste dumps" full of used EV batteries is pure misinformation.

A lot of the EV misinformation today was true at one time. But technology eventually finds ways to deal with it.

Countless old info. gets pushed by the anti-EV crowd, including the photo of the very long line at a Telsa charge station taking on a 4-day weekend where people would have to wait for hours to even start their charge. Was a true photo. But there were only six Tesla chargers there at the time, now they have around 200 in the same area.

Some things take time to catch up. There was a time when gasoline was difficult to get too. Once even during my lifetime, back in the late 1970's. Very long lines at the very few gas stations that were open (an made a big mess!):

compares to:

And today at that same area:

Notice the other row of Superchargers behind this front row. Nobody needs to wait there these days.

And then we also see photos of stuff such as the Diesel charger to charge Teslas. Whatever works for those long gone days where we were very short on Tesla chargers.

Today, there are 17,000 Tesla superchargers in the USA. At close to 2,000 different locations.

Most Tesla owners rarely use them. Have their own charging in their home for perhaps 99 percent of drives. Like me--at both homes--I charge at 12KW.

Since I purchased my Tesla new in year 2018, I used Superchargers four times. One time was just to try it when it was free for six months on new Teslas. Another time was just to check into a new Charge Station at Lake Topaz when I wanted to take a break (I had more than enough juice to get home). The two others I really needed, two overnight trips in my Tesla, both to Silicon Valley. That is since 2018, when I purchased my Tesla new. So I needed to charge it on the road twice in five years.

I wish I could say the same for my electric motorcycles. Or any of my gas vehicles. The electric motorcycles are often charged on the road as I enjoy taking long trips on them. But by the time I need a charge, I need the break. And most of my charging is for free on my 2023 Zero DSR/X. It costs me more to charge it at home! Especially here in Auburn, where the electric rate is three times that of Reno. CA is not for poor people, unless poor enough to be homeless.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[TheBar]

This just came up yesterday. There is often more than one solution to a problem and compromises are often the solution.

 

[John From Detroit]

Regarding EV's I've often questioned just how environmentally friendly they are. However the key word is "Questioned"... I've seen lots of conflicting answers and I only have an associate's degree in Science. A masters at least would be needed to figure it out I'm sure. If not a PHd.
On Hydrogen.. Having made it I know one way to do it, in fact I know two. but the easiest way is electrolysis of water.. Now it's tricky to store and you really do not want to mic H2 O2 and a spark outside of a controlled environment But if the engine is properly tuned and is mixing air and Hydrogen at the proper ratio the resulting exhaust product is.... WATER.. that is about as non-polluting as it gets.
But again I do not know how much electricity or other means is needed to produce it...
I do know there are safer ways to store it than the ones I know (Pressure vessel)

It is an interesting technology.
Propane.. Though much cleaner than Gasoline or Diesel. It still has byproducts. Polluting byproducts.
I've ridden behind propane powered vehicles and can clearly smell the exhaust.

 

[Tulecreeper]

Hydrogen is very difficult to work with. It's an extremely small molecule. ‘Sealed’ tanks will slowly leak H2 gas through even the smallest of holes. Tank manufacturers tell consumers of H2 storage tanks what percent of gas per month is lost from their tanks. Usually it's in the low single digits. Hydrogen is really hard to store.

There is also the engineering challenge of hydrogen making the storage container brittle. Hydrogen is so small that it will move into the space between the atoms of the metal the storage tank is made of. This makes the tank more brittle and breakable.

 

[DonTom]

Regarding EV's I've often questioned just how environmentally friendly they are.

Not much left to question these days. It has all been figured out. Did you watch the complete video? I think that would answer every question anybody can have.

If some wish to spend months checking out all the math they probably could. Like the guy says it is very complicated. It cannot be done in a few forum messages. But it has been figured out for us by many. It is not disputable that EVs are not cleaner than ICE vehicles, other than only when the process of being built is compared.

Yes, EVs are quite environmentally unfriendly to build, but everything else more than makes up for it.

BTW, since EVs have a tremendous amount of torque, I wonder when trains and big boats will be EVs. We already have the large trucks. I have seen the Tesla 18-wheelers on the road myself. I have no idea how well Hydrogen would do, but I do know about the torque of electrics. Those who never drove an AWD performance Tesla have no clue what torque feels like. I have. And the normal AWD Tesla is close enough to that for anybody on any public road.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[Ray-IN]

This just came up yesterday. There is often more than one solution to a problem and compromises are often the solution.

Regrettably there cannot be a rational discussion on the merits of your topic because the first 2 replies destroyed that chance.
I can see a future of Hydrogen fuel for vehicles, as well as electric and a couple other ideas. There is no rule we can have only one fuel for vehicles.
Thanks for posting the topic.

BTW, I'm still working on that perpetual motion machine idea_.

 

[Mountain high]

From White House link information on the Pacific Northwest Hydrogen Hub which includes Montana
...

"This H2Hub is expected to create more than 10,000 direct jobs—8,050 in construction jobs and 350 permanent jobs. (Amount: up to $1 billion)

I might have missed something here, but 8,050 construction jobs (which makes it sound like they're all temporary) plus 350 permanent jobs doesn’t add up to more than 10,000 jobs.

 

[TheBar]

An almost pollution free solution: hydrogen can be separated with steam or electricity - generated by thermal energy. The DOE is dedicated to creating low cost hydrogen production.

"The United States generates the most geothermal electricity in the world—more than 3.7 gigawatts. That’s enough to power about 2.7 million U.S. homes, growing to 40 million by 2050".

 

[Skookum]

Regrettably there cannot be a rational discussion on the merits of your topic because the first 2 replies destroyed that chance.
I can see a future of Hydrogen fuel for vehicles, as well as electric and a couple other ideas. There is no rule we can have only one fuel for vehicles.
Thanks for posting the topic.

BTW, I'm still working on that perpetual motion machine idea_.

Since mine is one of them, I'm here to say no, it, didn't. My comment may have prevented this from becoming another anti-EV thread, a place to which every thread simply mentioning EV seems to devolve.

Would it surprise you if any "pro EV" folks agreed that Hydrogen is an interesting idea, and that I didn't think any of us/them would take issue with alternate propulsion methods which are as clean or efficient as EV?

Toyota has been experimenting with Hydrogen fuel cells since the 1990's. The technology does not appear to suffer from lack of investment or interest. There are, however, some really big hurdles to overcome, like storage and generation.

 

[Martian]

Hydrogen powered vehicles could be a big help with one caveat: consumers who cannot handle a gasoline fill will kill many if they are allowed to handle hydrogen. Hydrogen refilling should be done by people at the station, not the consumers due to the inherent dangers.

 

[John From Detroit]

BTW, since EVs have a tremendous amount of torque, I wonder when trains and big boats will be EVs.

Boats. Well they do have a few but no advantage since the way a boat works torque is not an issue.
Trains have been EV's for many many many years.. All modern trains are EV's.. Only instead of batteries they have Generators. That's why the modern engine is a "Diesel Electric" Disesel powered generator Electric motors on the drivers... Only thing that even comes close for torque (And can actually beat it) Steam.