jacks won't retract

[greggww]

Back again....
I have a 98 dolphin w/ power gear manual jacks. Supposed to move tomorrow (this pasts up to debate now) but my jacks will not retract. I can turn them on I can raise them. I also do not show a light for jacks down. The power vendors user amnual I have reccomended checking a fuse behing the operator panel..I did...it was OK.  Any thoughts folks?
Gregg

 

[John From Detroit]

Well getting them to go up is fairly easy, but you said "I can turn them on and raise them"

Do you mean you can turn them on, push the button and the jacks EXTEND, only when you push the "RETRACT ALL JACKS button they don't come up?

If that is the case I do indeed have a suggestion,  Two of them in fact

Power gear uses a float valve inside the fluid tank,, IIRC it closed if the fluid is "low" in the tank (Low fluid indicates the jacks are down you see) I Do not think it questions this switch,,, And I may be backwards as to how it works.  You can disconnect the switch and see if that helps (Just pull the connector apart near the tank,  Then re-connect

As for the jacks themselves, Does the rig "Drop"an inch or so when you push the retract button?  But the jacks remain in contact with the ground?

If so extend them, and lubricate as per the manual.

If all else fails there has to be a way to manually retract the jacks, even if it's to loosen the fittings and let the fluid leak out of the lines (Put an oil change pan down to catch the fluid and use a cloth to control spray (so it all drips down into the pan

Do rear jacks first please if you do this

Then make your next stop a service center

 

[greggww]

I should have said raise the rv. Does nothing whenI hit the switch....i will check the float valve in the morning, when I have a little light. There is a plug at the top of the block that that hydraulic lines go to, I suspect that I could open it and it will go down.
Do you know if there is just a single power source?
Gegg

 

[Rex]

Gregg, yes there is a single power source for the powergear system.  There is , or should be, an in-line fuse near the pump itself.  Should be enclosed in a rubber cover about 1" x 1" x 1/4".  It will be an automotive type fuse.  Powergear modified the valve system in later years so you could bleed the fluid out of the jacks back into the tank, however I don't think your 98 has that feature.  The 97 year model I had did not. 

If you can raise the coach my turning the system on, and hitting the down button, but not raise the jacks with the raise button, then you have a fluid lock.  The solenoids that operate to allow fluid to flow into the jacks may be the same one that allows fluid to flow out of the jacks and back into the tank.  In the case of raising the jacks, the solenoid should open and allow fluid to flow back to the tank.  In the case of extending the jacks, the same solenoid should open and the pump motor will run forcing fluid into the jacks.  There should be a single solenoid for each jack.  All the solenoids are at the pump location.  If you have 3 jacks and find 3 solenoids, then the 4th solenoid is the only one that will open to allow fluid to flow from the jacks back to the tank.  At some point Powergear added the 4th solenoid, but you may not have that.

Also check for corroded wires by the solenoids.  That could be the problem.

Rex 01 Diplomat

 

[greggww]

Thank you Rex.....I do have4 solenoids...you gave me some more things to check in the a.m.
Thanks again Gregg

 

[Karl]

Gregg,
There is a fail-safe (supposedly) built in, in case there's a problem with the electronic controls. Try this - Step on the regular brakes, start the engine, release the emergency brake, and shift into 'Drive'. That should cause the jacks to dump immediately. If not, you have a problem with the control board (mounted under the switches), bad connection to the release solenoid, or bad solenoid itself (not very likely). An emergency way to get your jacks up is to remove the connector on the release solenoid and feed 12VDC directly to it. Depending on if the connector has one wire or two, you may have to run both positive and negative to it. With a single wire going into the connector, positive is all that's needed. You'll have to keep power on it until the jacks are completely retracted. If that doesn't work, the solenoid is defective or sticking. Do not apply 12VDC to any of the other solenoids! 

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Greg,
The Power Gear jacks rise by spring pressure once the solenoids open the valves.  Dirty jack legs will make it hard for the jacks to come up under spring power - cleaning and lubricating the legs will help that. Also, most Power Gear jacks have a grease fitting on the jack leg. If you have those, give them a shot of grease.

But if the solenoids are not opening the hydraulic valves as Karl described, nothing is going to happen. You will have to open the lines manually.

 

[Ron]

When we were staying in Yuma a guys BIL was having trouble getting his jack to retract.  I knew he had been busy doing maintenace items so I mentioned the jacks had to be retracted when adding fluid and if fluid was added while the jacks were down they would not retract.  Next day problem went away and I never did hear what his problem was but I have a pretty good idea. ;D ;D

 

[greggww]

Thanks for all the help...still having problems. Went ahead and cracked the lines to dump fluid and they came up OK. I really needed to move to stay on schedule. I gave some bad info in my first post. I thought that the RV was able to raise with the levelers. (I never gave more than a quick push on the pads)It does not, the pump runs but the levelers don't go down.

 

[John From Detroit]

This means that one of four conditions exist, I'll let you figure it out

1: All four (You have FOUR?) Solenoid are bad  (Four all going bad at once?)

2: Control board is bad

3: Wiring harness has at least 4  broken wires

4: Bad ground on the solenoids, and it's different than the ground on the pump motor.

NOTE: I'm kind of guessing it's #4

TO TEST

Hook test lamps across solenoids, have partner attempt to lower jacks (Raise rig) lights should light.

If lights do not light, then move ONE of the leads from the solenoid to a good known chassis ground, NOTE> If one lead is common to all solenoids, this is the wire to move.

If lights now work... Bad ground, repair ground.

 

[Rex]

OK, so I am not sure I clearly understand what you are saying.  If the jacks do not go down at all once you have released fluid to get them up, then check the amount of fluid in the tank.  There should be a removable cap where fluid can be added.  NEVER add fluid with the jacks down, only with them up.  Now if the jacks are going down but not raising the coach, could be the same problem, not enough fluid. 

If the fluid is OK and the jacks don't go down, follow John In Detroit outline to find your problem.  If your switches are working and the pump is running and you have fluid, then the solenoids are not opening.  On manual systems, you need to hold the switch in the down position until the jacks are down.  You most likely have a switch for each jack.  Always put the front jack down first, then use the rear jacks to level with.

 

[Karl]

Gregg,
That pretty well sums it up.

Now that you have bled the fluid out of the jacks, you'll surely have to add more before they will go down again. And, if you ran the pump after bleeding the jacks, chances are there is air in the lines and they'll have to be bled just like you would do with brake lines. Start at the one farthest from the pump reservoir and work your way closer in. You'll have to keep adding fluid to the reservoir when doing that, and once you're done, you'll have to retract the jacks to push out any excess fluid. It's going to be messy, but necessary. Have lots of paper towels (and beer) close at hand.

If you have the same control board like the one in the pictures, be aware that there are fuses mounted on it too. Locate the large, 10-pin white connector. That connector goes directly to the various solenoids. Directly above it, you'll see 5 round, black objects. Those are the fuses that protect the control board if a solenoid or wiring to them should become shorted. However, as John mentioned about the solenoids, it's unlikely that multiples of them would have blown and are the cause of your problem. If all else fails, check the three white connectors. They lock in place so, again, it's unlikely to be your problem, but something to keep in mind.

 

[greggww]

Thanks for all the help folks...still need some more if possible. At the Power Gear website I came up with a good enough wiring diagram to help. There is a small harness that powers the solenoids and the float switch. There was no power there. Their diagram shows that power should come off of the positive side of the solenoid and be hot at all times. The solenoids are two wire and the control pad controls grounds to complete the circuit. The harness has a 10 amp fuse built into it so what I did is to use a length of wire and clips (like what you use for trailer wiring hookups) to supply power to the circuit. Levelers worked great, but by hooking it up that way, it makes the entry step think that the key is on all the time. The step goes up and down each time the door is opened. This problem did not happen until I had a problem where I had no 12 volt in the RV and I hired a local
RV repair place to fix it. I have been recovering from surgery and was unable to try to repair it myself. I did not notice the problem at the time, but I did not attemp to move the motorhome for another 2 months. Does anyone have access to a wiring diagram for the coach part of the vehicle. (98 National Dolphin). It would be a great deal of help. I have a transmitter type wiring tracer in storage that I will pick up next time I am by there and will be able to isolate where the wires go, ut may still need some more info to figure out where they belong. I am fairly mechanical I spent 30 years rebuilding automatic transmissions. This should really be simple but with the lack of manuals and my still recovering physical state it is fairly difficult.    Thanks Gregg

 

[Karl]

Gregg,
Are you looking for a diagram of the jack controller or the step controller? By wiring it the way you have, it sounds like you are now back-feeding power to the step controller through the ignition switch, and maybe to some other things as well. Or maybe you just accidentally moved the step switch to the 'always retract when I open the door' position.? Check that first. Temporarily, you probably want to install a switch in the new power line so it is on only when you want to activate the jacks. If the problem is truly in the step wiring, you could open the door to extend the steps and while they're extended, remove one of the door magnet screws and move the magnet away from the magnetic door switch; then secure it in that position. If you do that, make some kind of reminder to yourself to re-position the magnet before you attempt to move the coach!! This is, of course, only a temporary fix.

 

[greggww]

Rather than a switch It only takes a couple of seconds to undo the wire I added to the hot side of the solenoid. The power gear wiring diagrams I have...probably wouldn't have gotten this far without them. power gear just shows it hooked to the positive side of the solenoid. National decided to do something different. Apparently they chose to not leave that circuit hot and tied it to the key. Consequently when I make that wire hot it makes the step believe that the key is on. I could judt snip the wire and fasten it to the solenoid and the step problem would be cured, but I am leary of doing that incase there is something elso on the circuit I might be disabeling. Would really like to get a coach wiring diagram and am sure I could fix it properly. Anyway when I pick up my tracer I will be able to track and identify the wires and maybe then it will be obvious. It will proably be a week or two before I can. I really suspect that it is something that the techs did that were working on the fuse panel for the coach. Would be simple with a diagram.

Maybe this should be another thrad, but something else I could not help but notice, is that access to the chassis fuse block is horrible. I had never given it any thought before. For me to access the panel I have to remove the drivers seat. I have to admit I am a pretty big person 5'10"  250 lbs. but I don't think it would be any different if I weighed 120. If I was to hae electrical problems on the road this could turn a very simple problem into a fairly major one. Has anyone else experienced this?

Thanks Gregg

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

The chassis fuse block comes with the chassis from another manufacturer, so the fuse panels and such tend to get buried when the body is installed on it. Some chassis manufacturers do a better job than others of placing things where there is a prayer of it still being accessible later. Is your Dolphin a Ford or Chevy chassis?

Good luck on finding a Dolphin wiring harness diagram - I tried to get one for an 02 Dolphin for three years and never got it. One customer service rep reluctantly said he would send me a copy the electrical reference section of his workbook, but I never got that either.  And the diagram will only show the harness schematic, not the physical location of anything.

 

[John From Detroit]

This sounds more and more like a blown fuse, IN fact I'm about 99% sure you have a blown fuse.  Do you know where the fuse that powers your jacks is located?  Ignition controlled circuits are normally located either in the fuse block under the dash (most "Vehicle" stuff) or ... If you have an intelletec battery control center they are in there.  This is a fairly large black box, on my gasser it's next to the brake master cylinder under the hood.. Hold on... I checked my manual and do not see a fuse specific for JACKS but there are a lot of "Spares" there.  (Several spares in fact)

Could be most any of the spares.

Or it could be somewhere else

But it sure sounds like either 1:Blown fuse or 2: Broken wire, and it does not sound much like the wire for other reasons

 

[greggww]

I have the Chevy Chassis, if I had a drivers side door it would not be such a problem. I am pretty sure that access would be easy then.
I did not find a blown fuse, I looked at both the chassis and the coach fuse assembly. I really suspect something is fastened to the wrong spot from the folks that worked on the 12 volt system.
A wiring diagram would be a blessing but if it was that difficult to TRY to obtain one then I am pretty sure now that National is gone, it's probably pretty unlikely.
My battery control, to the best of my knowledge is located in the compartment next to the door. That is what they were working on before the problem began. I looked under the hood and did not see anything like what you described.
I will figure out where that wire goes and I am pretty sure at that point it will be easy to repair the problem.

thanks Gregg

 

[Rex]

Gregg, there should be a 10-amp fuse very near the Power Gear pump and just before the solenoid.  Sounds like you bypassed that fuse.  Power to that fuse should be supplied via a relay that is triggered by the ignition switch.  Wiring 12-vdc direct to the solenoid is not a good idea.  If that is the only thing you did to get the jacks to work, then I would say the 10-amp fuse I mentioned must be good or it would not be able to back-feed power to your step.  On the other hand, there should be a switch in your coach that will make the step operate every time the door is opened, or not operate when it is opened, depending on which way the switch is set.  Check that first to see if it solves the step problem.  If changing the switch operation switch does correct the step problem, then you need to fix the power to the Power Gear system.  Could be the control relay, but I have no idea where that will be located.  It is very doubtful you will be able to find a wiring diagrams for your coach. 

Rex

 

[greggww]

I know the location of the 10 amp fuse it is good and it is between the solenoids and where i spliced in power. The power gear wiring diagram shows power hooked to the 12 V positive of the pump solenoid. I believe the keypad to be inactive unless the ignition and the keypad is turned on. I do not believe there is a problem for that system to be constant hot. Also regarding the switch , it is not the problem,with the power unhooked it operates normally...key on it goes up and down iregardless...switch off locks...switch on up and down. Hook power into the circuit and it acts as if the key is on whether it is or not. It overrides the switch. I appreciate your help.