Solenoid Questions?

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Scott-0168

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They had to replace the Solenoids on my 2003 Pace Arrow that I just became the new owner of last week. After they replaced the Solenoids they found out that a Board needed to be relplaced, (the board is on back order). All of this work no charge of course to the new owner!
Question's: Are  Solenoids prone to fail every few years and what about this circute boards. Should I be concerned?

Scott  :)
 

Molaker

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There is more than one solenoid and more than one control board.  It would be helpful to know what is being repaired...refridgerator, water heater, generator, furnace, etc.
 

Just Lou

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I think the OP is talking about the aux start/isolator/charge and disconnect solenoids.  The circuit board is the one in the BCC (Battery Control Center).

The answer to the first question is YES, solenoids can be problematic and can fail in several ways. (i.e. open coils, tacked - welded - contacts, burned contacts that won't make contact).  Poor battery maintenance can contribute to some of these problems by requiring high charge currents, etc..

The fact that the circuit board is also now being suspect, and deemed defective, (after ALL the solenoids were replaced) leads me to believe that the techs were less than qualified to make any of the diagnostic decisions.

Fortunately, it appears the dealer is footing the bill.
 

Scott-0168

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Just Lou said:
I think the OP is talking about the aux start/isolator/charge and disconnect solenoids.  The circuit board is the one in the BCC (Battery Control Center).

The answer to the first question is YES, solenoids can be problematic and can fail in several ways. (i.e. open coils, tacked - welded - contacts, burned contacts that won't make contact).  Poor battery maintenance can contribute to some of these problems by requiring high charge currents, etc..

The fact that the circuit board is also now being suspect, and deemed defective, (after ALL the solenoids were replaced) leads me to believe that the techs were less than qualified to make any of the diagnostic decisions.

Fortunately, it appears the dealer is footing the bill.

Lou, the way it was explained to me was like you said above, it had to do switching back and forth between Coach and Shore power supply.
They said they had no way of knowing the Board was bad because there was no power to it because of the Solenoids!

Scott  :)

Staff edit: Add missing end quote tag
 

Just Lou

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I rest my case.  The BCC solenoids and circuit board have nothing whatsoever to do with switching between coach and shore power.

EDIT -
I had better add, before I get beat fiercely about the head and shoulders, that the circuit board does, in fact, sense the presence of shore power (in the form of charging voltage from the converter or I/C) and use it to attempt to pick the isolator/charge solenoid.
 

John From Detroit

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To answer your question: NO, and NO. however.....

If you are talking the solenoids in the automatic transfer switch...

These are designed to transfer, not to switch (I know what's the difference) make sure you are POWER DOWN on at least the big eaters before starting or stopping the generator,  The big eaters are Air Conditioners, Space heaters, Water heaters and the microwave for the most part.  All of these can draw 10 amps or more and if you "HOT SWITCH" (start or stop the gnerator with them running) the inductive kick when the solenoid relays transfer can play holy hadies with the contacts welding them in one or the other position.
 

Just Lou

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John From Detroit said:
To answer your question: NO, and NO. however.....

If you are talking the solenoids in the automatic transfer switch...

These are designed to transfer, not to switch (I know what's the difference) make sure you are POWER DOWN on at least the big eaters before starting or stopping the generator,  The big eaters are Air Conditioners, Space heaters, Water heaters and the microwave for the most part.  All of these can draw 10 amps or more and if you "HOT SWITCH" (start or stop the gnerator with them running) the inductive kick when the solenoid relays transfer can play holy hadies with the contacts welding them in one or the other position.

There are NO solenoids in the transfer switch.  However, the conditions and the cautions you suggest are valid where the transfer switch is the concern.
 
W

Weewun

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How do you pick the Transfer Relays if there are no Solenoids?????
 

mrschwarz

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Do most of us know the difference between a solenoid and a relay?
 

Ned

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mrschwarz said:
Do most of us know the difference between a solenoid and a relay?

Some of us do.  Relays contain a solenoid, plus other items.
 

Just Lou

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All right. :)  And of course you are technically correct, however, you won't find the relay in an RV transfer switch called a solenoid in any parts manual.  And, you'll confuse the heck out of the average person, and probably any tech, if you insist on calling it that.

I still wouldn't let Scott's tech any where near my coach.



 

Jim Godward

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Just Lou said:
All right. :)  And of course you are technically correct, however, you won't find the relay in an RV transfer switch called a solenoid in any parts manual.  And, you'll confuse the heck out of the average person, and probably any tech, if you insist on calling it that.

Yes and most do not call the device in a transfer switch a relay, but a contactor  Picky, picky, picky!!!    :) :) :) :) :)
 

Just Lou

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Jim Godward said:
Yes and most do not call the device in a transfer switch a relay, but a contactor  Picky, picky, picky!!!    :) :) :) :) :)

LOL Jim, I was going to describe how the different relays could be classified, and yes, I would call something as heavy duty as the transfer relay, a contactor, but I already have enough folks here who like to pee on my leg when I get too specific or when I over generalize.
 

Jim Godward

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Lou,

Since my son and DIL are moving to TN the end of this week and that means we will be heading east next year, I'll pour a little sympathy for you if we can get together!
 

Just Lou

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Jim Godward said:
Lou,

Since my son and DIL are moving to TN the end of this week and that means we will be heading east next year, I'll pour a little sympathy for you if we can get together!

I'd like that.  I'll bet we can make it happen.
 

n7qvu

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Ned said:
Some of us do.  Relays contain a solenoid, plus other items.

I really would like to see a short list of "plus other items".

My electronics teacher in college would love to read this discussion re: relays, solenoids, and contactors. Don't leave out transfer switches(manual/auto).

Almost as bad as calling them engines vs motors and capacitors vs condensors.

wow...
 

Scott-0168

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OK, bottom line, If I have a bad board that connects to the solenoids in question, could it cause the solenoids to go bad or could bad solenoids cause the board to go bad?
Please a simple answer the layman can understand!

Scott  :-\
 

Just Lou

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Scott-0168 said:
OK, bottom line, If I have a bad board that connects to the solenoids in question, could it cause the solenoids to go bad or could bad solenoids cause the board to go bad?
Please a simple answer the layman can understand!

Scott  :-\

Well, Gary has been trying to teach me never to say never, and to always avoid saying always, so I'll just say "Not in my opinion", on either question.

The one solenoid (isolator), actually controlled by the board, is a continuous duty solenoid, meaning it is designed to have it's coil activated for long periods of time.  Since battery or alternator voltage is the largest voltage applied to the board, I can't see any failure mode that could destroy the solenoid.  Failure usually consists of bad internal contacts or the occasional open coil. JMHO

The two disconnect solenoids are controlled by switches that apply battery voltage to their coils when the switches are depressed.  The switches are wired to reverse the applied voltage to activate or deactivate the solenoids.  The solenoids, themselves, mechanically latch in the last selected configuration.

The newer boards (yours is probably one of them, CB-115 Rev. D) have a circuit on the board that will unlatch the disconnect solenoids, with chassis battery power, when the ignition switch is on.
 

Just Lou

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n7qvu said:
I really would like to see a short list of "plus other items".

My electronics teacher in college would love to read this discussion re: relays, solenoids, and contactors. Don't leave out transfer switches(manual/auto).

Almost as bad as calling them engines vs motors and capacitors vs condensors.

wow...

The "other items" would include the contacts and the associated mechanisms (springs, pivots, connectors, etc..) to make them function as a relay, contactor or valve.

The "solenoid", technically speaking, is the coil of wire wound around a core capable of producing a magnetic field when voltage is applied across the coil.  The resultant magnetic field is what is utilized to induce the mechanical action necessary to open/close the electrical contacts of the relay/contactor.

Why am I starting to feel like JFD.
 
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