The old weight limit question

[CP]

Hi all,
We purchased a 2017 Newmar Ventana LE 3709 with a 340isb Cummings eng. We new carrying capacity could be an issue but based the actual weight of the coach per the salesman 27,300 and a gcwr of 33,000 we felt for two of us we would be ok. We couldn't get a full Ventana Diesel. So off we go on our first trip and over mountains etc. and no problems. So I got weighed at a pilot and what do you know I am 1,500 pounds on the dime over the gcwr. I am at 34,500 lbs with the toad. Do you think that approx. 4.5 percent over gcwr is a show stopper or do you think the coach will be ok? As I mentioned we had no problems, the transmission worked fine and we had good power/breaking.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Chuck

 

[RedandSilver]

IMO you will be OK if you can control yourself and drive at 55-60mph MAX.
70mph plus is pushing it on an already over loaded rig.

Make sure your tires are at the proper pressures, that includes the toad.

IF there is anything on board that you can live without - I would leave it at home.

You could always reduce the amount of water you carry - if your always going to campgrounds.
You could also travel with less gas in the toad maybe ? tank or so instead of full.

 

[mel s]

Hi all,
We purchased a 2017 Newmar Ventana LE 3709 with a 340isb Cummings eng. We new carrying capacity could be an issue but based the actual weight of the coach per the salesman 27,300 and a gcwr of 33,000 we felt for two of us we would be ok. We couldn't get a full Ventana Diesel. So off we go on our first trip and over mountains etc. and no problems. So I got weighed at a pilot and what do you know I am 1,500 pounds on the dime over the gcwr. I am at 34,500 lbs with the toad. Do you think that approx. 4.5 percent over gcwr is a show stopper or do you think the coach will be ok? As I mentioned we had no problems, the transmission worked fine and we had good power/breaking.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Chuck

CP link
IMO any coach/toad combination that puts you over the manufacture's GCRW, (gross vehicle weight rating), will "over work" the running gear, (engine, transmission and differential)... as well as the braking system.

While it may not be evident early on...  the longevity, (aka: usable road worthy life), of the coach will most certainly be negatively affected, (aka: shortened).

Whether or not that's a "show stopper" for you is something only you can decide.

 

[kdbgoat]

Have you checked the actual sticker on your coach? The brochure states the GVWR is 31,000# and GCWR is 33,000#. Only having the ability to tow 2,000# is ludicrous, especially with a pusher. I'm thinking the brochure may be wrong? Maybe the sticker on the coach says something different.

 

[Mile High]

I personally wouldn't give it another thought.  Just know you are over before you start adding more cargo.

 

[camperAL]

Hi CP,

There is one other aspect of being over weight that could cost you a lot. If your in an accident (regardless of who is at fault) you may be blamed or sued by being overweight if you can't get stopped fast enough and cause injury or death. You might not be able to get the insurance to pay up if you neglected the warnings of your maximum cargo weight. Not trying to scare you but something to consider.

There is help in the library on how to check weights and loading. The tow car will only add some back end weight and the total car weight isn't added in total cargo weight, except when you stop. A breaking system will help you with that. Best wishes and safe travel!!

 

[John From Detroit]

I will give you two answers
The official answer is "I can not, for liability reasons, advise you to go even one ounce over the weight rating"...  (I hope this is clear)

The other answer is "I would like to believe that there is some "Wiggle Room", and a common design tolerance is 10%.. The catch is.. it might be 10% the wrong way.

 

[CP]

Thanks all for your input. One thing I forgot to mention is that the coach is just under the GVWR, it is with a toad I go over the GCWR.

 

[OLDRACER]

Strikes me that I would weigh it again someplace else just to be sure.

 

[RedandSilver]

In the OP's first post he stated 27300 and a GCRW of 33000 so 5700 available.  With my older coach I have about 4000lbs I can add to the
coach PLUS 10,000 towing.  So for you to only have 5700 seems really low or the numbers are off.  Makes me wonder if it should be GVWR of
33000 instead of GCRW.

I would be checking what the trailer hitch is rated for.
I would also weight the coach and toad separately.

CP did you look for and find the placard that has all the weights and tire pressures on it?

Because maybe your "salesman" was OFF in his numbers.  Get the numbers off the placard in the vehicle - to know for sure.

 

[kdbgoat]

That was the point I was making. The salesman was quoting the weights from the brochure.

 

[CP]

I will double check the sticker in tomorrow. The brochure from Newmar says gvwr 31,000lb gcwr 33,000lb, and app. ncc 27,500. Which I could live with but when the factory weight jumped approx. 1,300 lb from what the salesman said that took away my cushion.

 

[RedandSilver]

A 2000lbs tow capacity would be low for even a Gas unit.

 

[SkateBoard]

GVW does not include your towed vehicle.

 

[kdbgoat]

We understand that GVWR doesn't include the toad. The 2,000# we're talking about is the difference between the GVWR and the GCWR.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

The problem with the chassis under the LE is that the GVWR is very close to the GCWR. That means that when the coach is loaded with a full cargo weight, there is only 2000 lbs left for a toad vehicle. You can carry cargo, or you can tow, but you can't do both. Or at least, you exceed specs if you try to do both.

The 3709 model has an approximate unleaded weight (UVW) of 27,500 (see the placard by the driver seat for the exact UVW of yours). That allows for 3500 lbs of cargo (31,000-27,500 = 3,500), with just 2000 lbs left over for towing something. If you cut down on the cargo, you can tow more, but you can't have both towing and lots of cargo.  Sorry, but you checked the numbers going in and decided they were OK.  Now you know better.

https://www.newmarcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2017-ventana-le-brochure-web.pdf

Can you run like that? Sure. The wheels won't fall off right away, and the rig is within typical motorhome weight-to-horsepower ratios, roughly 100 lbs/hp. You are operating a bit beyond what the engineers calculated, so you are probably over-stressing some components with excess weight, and you might run into some questions if you ever made a warranty claim for some driveline or related component. Overall however, I think the concern is slight in this particular case.  But Like John said, I can't in good conscience say "it's OK to exceed GCWR", cause I don't have the info that the chassis engineers used to determine it in the first place.

 

[CP]

Thanks Gary. Much appreciated. I see on one sticker in a cabinet that has gvwr still at 31,000 and says ccc is a little over 2,200 after uvw and propane. But I don't see gcwr listed. I see a sticker that the Axle weights which total 33,000. Just thought I would see a gcwr someplace. I think we will remove some weight and be a little over. Just wish what salesman would have given me the right actual weight. Oh well live and learn. My advice to anyone is to get the actual weight from the factory for your unit and do not rely on a salesman.

 

[RedandSilver]

From the link that Gary posted.

If you study the chart on the page that starts with "Quality Construction" and has the weights on it you should see that their numbers are off.

Looking at the first 2 in the 3000 series of coaches they take the Front and Rear axles and add them together.  12,000 + 20,000 and get 31,000.  It should be 32,000 not 31,000.  That's off by 1000.

Then looking at the 3709 that the OP has they list 13,300 + 20,000 and get the same 31,000.  And it should be 33,300.  That's off by 2300.
Actually the 33,000 GCWR is 300lbs under what the GVWR should be.

Now when they get to the 4000 series coaches they get the numbers right with 13,300 + 24,000 and get 37,300.

With them not knowing how to add - OR they are trying to sell the higher priced coaches - I would be leery of believing what they even
have on the placard in the coach.

Because in this case the coach the OP has will carry the least amount of NCC (Net Carrying Capacity) of all the coaches listed.


Maybe CP should call them (on the carpet) and make them explain why the numbers don't add up with the 3000 series but do for the 4000.

One more thing is they added 36" of wheelbase (with the coach CP has) over the 1st 2 in the 3000 series but only added to the front axles and not the rear,
like they did in the 4000 series coaches.

 

[Mile High]

The table they use doesn't add up, but there could be other reasons for limiting GVWR, such as the maximum load rating of the tires they used?  On fivers the tires were often the limiting factor rather than GAWR.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Looking at the first 2 in the 3000 series of coaches they take the Front and Rear axles and add them together.  12,000 + 20,000 and get 31,000.  It should be 32,000 not 31,000.  That's off by 1000.

They aren't "off". The axle GAWRs are just one parameter in the engineering analysis that leads to a GVWR rating.  Tires are one possibility, but so is rear axle gearing, driveline components (universals, tranny, etc). Physical attachment of the hitch receiver to the chassis is another one and often the weakest link.