CA Smog Check woes

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With the response you are now getting it appears they be in for  a big problem with the state if they don't get you taken care of properly.  Good on ya.
 
Carl L said:
Excellent.   The problem is back where it should be.

By the way, Don, do I know you from the old CIS California Forum?
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Yes.  I used to be in there fairly often.  Now, most of those members are in the CompuServe / Netscape Travel Forum here.

-Don- (at my sinecure in San Francisco, CA)​
 
DonTom said:
Yes.  I used to be in there fairly often.  Now, most of those members are in the CompuServe / Netscape Travel Forum here.

-Don- (at my sinecure in San Francisco, CA)​
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I used to sysop on that old forum -- LA,  Desert, and Sierra Sections iirc.  I even switched over to Travel for a while, but when I closed my CIS account because it got spammed up solid, I could never get back in with a new address because of AOL membership sign-up and eventually I had to walk away unable even say goodbye. 

While it lasted the CA forum was fun, but the new economics doomed it and CIS.
 
The service center called me today to say that my RV is ready, it passed and the data has already been transmitted to CA DMV. They said they will deliver it tomorrow morning. They would have delivered it back here in South SF today if anybody was home when they called. I got back to them too late for today.

The story I got from them I really didn't like. They say they checked everything out that they could think of and couldn't find anything wrong. So they decided to test it again at a "test only" station (the service center cannot do "test only" as is required for "gross polluters"). It not only passed this time, but passed by a nice margin.

But since they claim they didn't find anything wrong (even though it flunked on them a few days ago), I am thinking something must be intermittent somewhere. But as long as it runs well, I won't worry too much about it.

Tomorrow we will drive it back to Reno and leave it there. When the CA registration expires, it will next have a NV plate where the smog checks are more mickey-mouse, much more likely to pass and a lot less hassle to repair when it doesn't. None of that "test only" nonsense in NV, which seems to be designed only to hassle people. Here in CA, you usually cannot legally test a "gross polluter"  in the same place that repairs it, so it's easy to get stuck in a run around back and fourth.

I don't know if it's true or not, but I was told (but not by anybody who should really know) when once a gross polluter in CA, from then on they require a smog test at a "test only" station every year.

Also, I hear CA registration fees are going to double this year because this state is going broke.

There are MANY reasons for me to register it in NV after the CA registration expires, besides for the fact that it should be registered in the sate where parked the most anyway, which is NV.

[size=10pt]-Don- SSF, CA​
​

 
I don't know if it's true or not, but I was told (but not by anybody who should really know) when once a gross polluter in CA, from then on they require a smog test at a "test only" station every year.
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I once took a car to a CA "test only" station, for no reason other than it was convenient (and I didn't know better). I asked them what it was about, and they explained that the CA DMV sends cars to them that can't pass a regular smog test. They are required to check that no modifications have been carried out which would contribute to emissions. Sure enough, they did a lot of looking under the hood and under the car. They still run the test and transmit the result to DMV in the normal way. I was left with the impression that a vehicle wouldn't fail the test provided no modifications have been made.

I was also left wondering if my car had to visit a "test only" station for future smog tests, but that does not appear to have been the case.
 
I once took a car to a CA "test only" station, for no reason other than it was convenient (and I didn't know better).
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As long as it passes, there's no problem except you MIGHT pay a bit more.

I asked them what it was about, and they explained that the CA DMV sends cars to them that can't pass a regular smog test.
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Not always true. My Saturn NEVER flunked a smog test and I was ordered to go to a "test only" station. They pick a few at random for "test only" too.

They are required to check that no modifications have been carried out which would contribute to emissions.
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Not exactly true. In CA, you can make a modification that emits MUCH less emissions and it will flunk right there just because it has been changed. I took the old carb out of my old junky 1979 RV and put in MPFI. It was a lot cleaner but could never be smogged in CA as it's an automatic flunk just because it has been changed. But since I have a home in NV . . . (which was where it was kept anyway), there was no problem with smog tests. It passed every time in NV (by far!) because they care more about emissions than the fact that it was modified.

Sure enough, they did a lot of looking under the hood and under the car. They still run the test and transmit the result to DMV in the normal way. I was left with the impression that a vehicle wouldn't fail the test provided no modifications have been made.
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If you changed anything, you flunk. There's nothing left to check. But there are countless reasons it can flunk even if never modified. Even in NV, a lit check engine light means you flunk. So does a "not set" condition. "Not set" means there are not enough miles in it after the last code reset or battery change to see if it will fail again. It's very difficult to cheat on smog tests these days, even in NV, because of the design of OBD2.

IOW, do NOT get a smog test after replacing or disconnecting your battery. Drive at least a hundred miles first so the codes will "set". Then if the check engine light comes on with in that 100 miles, try again or you will fail ;D

I was also left wondering if my car had to visit a "test only" station for future smog tests, but that does not appear to have been the case.
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It can still happen occasionally, as you can be picked by random by CA DMV as my Saturn was, which has never failed a smog test and has never been to a test only station in any previous year. These is no reason to avoid "test only" stations if the price is right.

-Don- SSF, CA​
 
Not exactly true. In CA, you can make a modification that emits MUCH less emissions and it will flunk right there just because it has been changed.
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That's what I was trying to say, but I said it wrong. Thanks for the correction Don.

do NOT get a smog test after replacing or disconnecting your battery. Drive at least a hundred miles first so the codes will "set".
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Been there, done that. I reported in a prior topic that a smog test on my wife's little-used car failed the 'check engine' test (IIRC the last test they do). The guy asked if I'd replaced or disconnected the battery recently, and I explained I disconnected the battery to prevent it discharging during storage. He told me to drive it for at least 150 miles and come back for a (free) re-test. My wife drove to see family in Nevada City for the weekend, and the car passed smog on her return. I quit disconnecting the battery and use a Battery Minder when the car is in storage for any length of time.

I wasn't aware of the random use of 'test only' stations by DMV, but it makes sense.
 
We were listening to one of the Los Angeles TV newscasts and they mentioned the car registration fees going up.  It sounded like a significant increase.  Also the basic sales tax is going up.  Some locales that add other sales taxes will be above 10%.  Not good.

ArdraF
 
I got my RV back today (for a little while) I am having a hard time believing that somebody would try to get away with this in CA. This story continues, it is NOT over yet. Let me start with some facts:

On March 13, 2009 when I had the smog test done in King's Beach, CA, it flunked, and here is the info.

Idle speed was 625 and the HC measured at 190.  39 is average for this vehicle (2000 Tioga,  or, Chevy  Express Cutaway, 7.4L, MPFI) and 150 is the very max allowed. So it then flunked with the 190.

This RV was picked up by the dealer and was sent out for a re-test on March 19, 2009 (Yesterday):

This time it passed, BUT the print out shows:

Idle 1067 !!!!!, HC only measured 68.

The RV would almost not be drivable at such a fast idle, so it's obvious to me that they CHEATED to make it pass. I cannot believe anybody would try something so stupid in CA unless they are trying to be put out of business by the BAR.  I also have a hard time believing that the max idle allowed for this vehicle is so high, when it's controlled by a chip in the ECM that will keep the idle around spec (which is ~650 RPM). And idle at 1067 proves there is something very serious wrong and my RV has never idled anything near 1067 under any conditions.

It's obvious to me that they used the "stick" they use to hold the gas pedal down for the 2500 RPM test but set it for the upper allowed idle to make it pass. Illegal as can be here in CA!

So I called back the dealer. We made an agreement to meet at the smog test place where we could watch the tester do a re-test at the real idle speed.

The RV was very warm after to 80 mile drive to get it there (makes it MUCH MORE likely to pass because the catalytic converters will be hotter) and they were able to test it right away. The did and they got a HC reading of 460!!!! Yes, 460, more than three times over  "gross polluter"!!!! A gross polluter is when the HC reading is more than double the max reading (of 150).

Of course the guy tried to Bull Feed me (I really used the other term  ;D), with all types of nonsense but I simply said "I am not trying to get anybody in trouble, I just want it fixed correctly". I also explained that I knew enough about vehicles that he will not be able to "bull fed"  me, but if he wants to continue to try,  he will end up arguing with the CA BAR instead of me.

At that point, they decided to keep the RV and fix it right and let us have a car to get home in.

I am quite sure now the problem is the older catalytic converter. They tried to be cheap and only replaced one before I purchased the RV. Seems when they go out, they get worse and worse very fast. IAC there's  no excuse for a "test only" station to do what they did.

I do wonder who the other culprit is between the RV dealer, the repair place and the "test only" smog place. Obviously the "test only" station did what they did for somebody to save money at my expense.

I do not want to get in a situation where  I will have to fix this at my expense next year when it's their problem by CA State law. They illegally sold  me the  RV without completing the smog test.

In just gasoline alone, I have spent a lot of money on this problem of theirs! Drive to Truckee, drive to Kings Beach, drive to SSF, they pick it up on a full tank to drive it to Livermore and back. Tom & I drive it to Livermore today. And then pay sixty bucks for the failed smog test at King's Beach. I wonder how much the RV dealer will reimburse me for all this.

At least I will get the registration as they illegally made it pass and it's unlikely anybody at DMW will notice. But I certainly noticed. I bet they could get away with this with 99% of the population and so they took a chance with me, not knowing I would check the VIR (Vehicle Inspection Report) and understand it.

This Monday, they are going to put on  a new catalytic converter to replace the one old one and I assume that will fix it correctly.

-Don- South San Francisco, CA ​


 
ArdraF said:
We were listening to one of the Los Angeles TV newscasts and they mentioned the car registration fees going up.  It sounded like a significant increase.  Also the basic sales tax is going up.  Some locales that add other sales taxes will be above 10%.  Not good.
ArdraF
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All that is fine with me as long as I do not feel the money is wasted on nonsense. Besides, I have more vehicles registered in NV than in CA.  ;D

I always have at least five vehicles at my NV home, counting two motorcycles. One (1984 Venture, 1200 CC) is still registered here in CA which is always left at the Reno home. That may soon change ;D

-Don- SSF, CA​

 
On March 13, 2009 when I had the smog test done in King's Beach, CA, it flunked, and here is the info.
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Isn't Kings Beach near Lake Tahoe, at about 4500 ft. elevation?  Seems to me it would be much harder for a marginal vehicle to pass smog up there in the thinner air.  Or does the state make allowances for the elevation?
 
Lou Schneider said:
Isn't Kings Beach near Lake Tahoe, at about 4500 ft. elevation?   Seems to me it would be much harder for a marginal vehicle to pass smog up there in the thinner air.  Or does the state make allowances for the elevation?
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With EFI (my 7.4 L engine is  MPFI), I doubt if it makes a lot of difference. But as you can see, it did better at 5,000 feet than at sea level, but since it might be running a bit lean (as shown by the OBD2 code 0171, which came on at 7,000 feet where a carb engine would be running too rich) it might be more likely to pass at a high elevation. BTW, the code 0171 never came back after a reset and it has been driven a few hundred miles at sea level since then.

If everything is working properly, I doubt if there would be a significant difference in the gas /air mixture at any reasonable elevation.

For an example, when an EFI engine is in closed loop the air / fuel mixture is always 14.7 to one, regardless if 200 feet below sea level or when 9,000 feet above sea level (closed loop means the O2 sensor is being used, unlike open loop when the O2 sensor is  being ignored such as at idle,  too cold or when accelerating, as then it relies on all the other sensors to set the correct mixture).

At 7,000 feet elevation, have you  noticed the  little four cylinder cars of today can usually go faster up the hills than the muscle V-8 cars of the 1970's?  I think all these smog requirements were the best thing that ever happened to cars, RV's etc. Now they have to be designed to run efficient at all elevations, which is important to me as I go from sea level to above 7,000 feet very often.

And my RV runs great at those elevations. Much better than the much lighter older vans I have owned with large engines but with a carb.

-Don- SSF, CA​
 
Lou Schneider said:
Isn't Kings Beach near Lake Tahoe, at about 4500 ft. elevation?   Seems to me it would be much harder for a marginal vehicle to pass smog up there in the thinner air.  Or does the state make allowances for the elevation?
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I forgot to answer your question. I see that I only answered what you did NOT ask. :-[

Kings Beach is in the northern part of Lake Tahoe, on the western CA side of the lake. Very nice (but very cold) area. The elevation of the smog test station was at 6,297 feet according to Delorme Topo Map version 7.

It was an Enhanced Gold Shield station which I trust to be as legitimate as they come. After it flunked he told me he would not get involved with a repair (but legally could) because he did not want to get involved with anybody other than the RV dealer directly after it failed and is still classified as a gross polluter.

I should not even have the vehicle in my possession. It's not even legal to drive, except for to get it repaired (which is all I have done with it so far).

"Enhanced" means they can do a smog test for ANY CA county or area (few places are allowed to do that or have the equipment to do it). Gold Shield means they can do TEST ONLY and REPAIR (yes, an oxymoron!). This means this place is more trusted, but I have no idea how or who decides such.

The place that illegally passed my RV  was a "test only" and they are NOT allowed to do any repairs. I wouldn't trust them anyway.

Back near the beginning of this thread, I mentioned how I had no vent  HVAC (it would only blow out the defogger) and the only port of the intake manifold was plugged. Now I have little doubts about who did that.

Like I said, I am not trying to get anybody in trouble, but I wonder if I should. No doubt they will play such games with others too, who won't even notice they were ripped off until it's too late.

-Don- South SF, CA​
 
Don,

Do you recall back in the 80's when a well known nationwide retailer got into big trouble for dup'ing automotive customers across California? An acquaintance was in the Bureau of Automotive Repair at the time, and explained how they put 'rigged' cars into 112 stores and caught them red handed.

When a dealer subsequently tried to dupe my other half into unnecessary repairs, I called the local BAR office. I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, although I felt that someone else could be duped into paying for repairs they didn't need. The BAR told me "we'll put a car into the dealership".

I suspect the BAR would readily check out the smog test facility.
 
Tom said:
I suspect the BAR would readily check out the smog test facility.
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I would normally like that idea.

However, there is BIG problem with that idea in this case.

They most likely will only  cheat for the place I purchased the RV from, or their repair shop. Such a  smog "test only" station has no reason to pass anybody else who really should fail.

As I explained before, I do not know who the real culprit is. The test only station is trying to save money for either the used RV dealer or for their service center or both. Perhaps all three are "in bed together".

Anybody else, including the BAR vehicle,  they would be very happy to flunk.  So how would BAR be able to bust such a place?

They would have to somehow make the smog place believe the BAR vehicle is from the used RV dealer, or their repair place and I do not see how that's even possible.

The best evidence is my own copy of the VIR (Vehicle Inspection Report) where anybody who knows much about vehicles can see the problem. But it really proves nothing legally as they can say the idle was abnormally high the time they tested it. As Denzel Washington said in the outstanding "Tranning Day" movie,  "it's not what they know, it's what they can prove." In this case, it's not what we know, but what we can prove. And I see no real way to legally prove much of anything.


-Don- South San Francisco, CA​

 
Don,

You'd mentioned BAR in an earlier message, and it reminded me of the story. Didn't mean to suggest what you should do in your situation.

I do know that auto repair shops (and probably test stations) in CA run scared of BAR. I once had a body shop forge my signature on an insurance release for work they didn't complete. After telling the insurance company not to pay out, I told the owner of the shop that I was thinking of filing a report with BAR. He got honest and cooperative in a real hurry.
 
Tom said:
I do know that auto repair shops (and probably test stations) in CA run scared of BAR. I once had a body shop forge my signature on an insurance release for work they didn't complete. After telling the insurance company not to pay out, I told the owner of the shop that I was thinking of filing a report with BAR. He got honest and cooperative in a real hurry.
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I had a similar experience when I mentioned the BAR. That, along with the fact he discovered he could not bull feed me,  left him (or them, as the service manager was there too and talking with the smog guy for who knows how long before we got there) with no choice but to fix it right.

BTW, I just did some internet searching to see what the two catalytic converters cost. I got a surprise. Each one is different in price by quite a bit.  The catalytic converter on one side only costs a couple of hundred bucks. But the one on the opposite side costs six hundred bucks! And that's a internet discounted price! You want to guess which one was NOT replaced? ;D.

The more expensive one is farther from the engine so I assume the reason it costs more is because it has to work at a lower temperature than the other.

-Don- SSF, CA​
 
If it isn't right then why worry who the cheat is pursue the issue till it is made right even if it takes calling in the BAR.  Why should you take the loss?
 
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