Ron
Moderator Emeritus
The fact they took it to Gilroy looks very suspicious to me. Kinda like going from test station to test station till they find one that will pass it regardless of what it takes.
CA Smog Check woes
- Thread starter DonTom
- Start date
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DonTom
Well-known member
Ron said:
I just called BAR and talked to a real person. After I explained the entire story, they asked me to file a complaint. They refused to say if it were legal or not (and I could tell this guys knows!) and I think that was to force me to file the complaint just to get the information. IOW, I assume it is illegal, just as I expected.
The complaint will be filed, which can all be done on line. Within a few days, I will have a reply in writing if what they did was legal or not.
BTW, I am not going to mention the first place that passed it because I gave my word that I wouldn't and the smog tech was nervous about it to the point I don't think he would do this again. However, the place in Gilroy that was so sure it was legal I will file a complaint against.
Of course, there is still a chance that it really is legal, but I kinda doubt it. I will soon know for 100% sure.
I will be happy either way, as if I do get a CA smog test again, I will have something in witting and I will ask them to increase the idle to above 1,000 RPM's to make the test pass. But I will most likely register it here in NV by then anyway, which is where it's usually parked (that's what we should go by to decide which state to register). If it is illegal, the RV goes back to JC RV to have them deal with this problem, papers from the BAR in hand.
I should know by next week and I will post here all the information I receive.
-Don- Reno, NV
carson
Well-known member
Don, I admire what you are doing. I certainly don't have the problem here in Florida, but just the same this problem could cost you big bucks in the future. Stay with it.
Maybe some day all the States will get together and have a common standard, hopefully not dictated by California; which includes gasoline specs.
Vote out the rascals next election....
carson FL
Maybe some day all the States will get together and have a common standard, hopefully not dictated by California; which includes gasoline specs.
Vote out the rascals next election....
carson FL
Don, the problem I would be having is as much (or MORE!) with the dealer as it is with the inspector increasing adle speed to slide it thru. When you called the dealer out on the carpet the first time it passed by raising the idle speed, he agrred that it wasn't properly repaired, and took it back 'to fix it right'. Sounded like they were more than a little nervous about what you might do when you caught them.
Now they did the same thing again, only at different inspection station. The fact that they threw some more parts on it, is really immaterial. They didn't fix the problem; pushed it through, and handed back to you. What has changed? IMO, they need to find out why it is failing, and correct that issue, or provide you with a letter from the state, that instructs the inspection station to raise the idle to 1077 for the idle test. I wonder if anyone in DMV supervision will do that?
Now they did the same thing again, only at different inspection station. The fact that they threw some more parts on it, is really immaterial. They didn't fix the problem; pushed it through, and handed back to you. What has changed? IMO, they need to find out why it is failing, and correct that issue, or provide you with a letter from the state, that instructs the inspection station to raise the idle to 1077 for the idle test. I wonder if anyone in DMV supervision will do that?
Tom
Administrator
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CA DMV? You have to be kidding. Nowadays, these guys are so upset with Arnold taking away Saturday work that they're not motivated to do much of anything.
Here's my recent experience with these guys. This was after I watched the guy do nothing for the 30 minutes I waited.
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DonTom
Well-known member
carson said:
IMAO, every car sold in the USA should have to meet CA standards. One reason is cars are made for travel, so why should it be legal for a gross polluter (by CA standards) from North Dakota to visit CA? Another reason is so they are all done the same way and no more of that "49 state legal" stuff. I would think that would make it easier for everybody who deals with car parts or service or anything else related. When I was checking on-line for the prices of catalytic converters, MOST of them said "49 state legal, cannot be shipped to a CA address". Of course, I have a NV address anyway, which often comes in very handy, but I want all my vehicles to meet CA specs even though I have most of them registered here in NV.
And I am tired of the separate pages in my factory service manuals for "CA ONLY".
Gasoline is often cheaper in CA than in many other states. The gasoline prices here in the Reno, NV area is around the same price as most of CA. Carson City is a bit cheaper, but sometimes even that price can be matched in the SF Bay Area. Perhaps the most expensive gasoline is located right where my other home is in SSF. It's a good 30 cents higher than any place in San Francisco. San Bruno is also more expensive. I find CA gasoline works well (even when a couple of years old with NO additives) in all of my many vehicles any time of year (they change the formula for winter use in CA). So why not meet CA specs everywhere?
Here in the extreme NW Reno area (5,000 feet elevation) you can buy 85 octane which I never saw in CA. That is a little cheaper than the other stations that won't sell below 87. I have used the 85 and cannot tell any difference under any conditions in any of my many vehicles, not even when at sea level.
The BAR complaint was filed a couple of hours ago. We will all know the reply next week sometime.
It's a nice sunny warm day here!
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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DonTom
Well-known member
CaptBill said:
CA BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair) deals with this. And believe me, they take this smog stuff very serious in CA. We will have the facts by next week, which will be posted here, as the complaint has already been filed.
-Don- (Reno, NV)
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DonTom
Well-known member
Well, we heard from the CA BAR today, but not in the way expected. They telephoned here when I was at work and Tom answered the phone. I was hoping it would be done via E-mail, so I could simply do a copy and paste here.
[size=10pt]
But here is the information I got from Tom.
As we expected, BAR has reasons to "believe" that increasing the idle temporarily to pass a smog test is illegal (just as expected). However, CA BAR canNOT make the determination. I would have to take the RV to a CA smog referee station. And if I do that, and it flunks at idle under them (no doubt it will) I may be forced to sell back the RV to where I purchased it. I have no intention of doing that, as I have the thing fixed up the way I want and it performs well., other than this idle smog problem.
I will get the registration sticker (but have not yet) as it has passed as far as CA DMV is concerned.
Anyway, since the catalytic converters have been replaced, I am leaning towards forgetting the entire thing and fixing the RV myself. I assume it's something small such as fuel pressure being off (I don't think anybody has checked it, so I will check it myself). And then I will see if it will pass a NV smog test, which is where I will register it next year anyway.
But I get the feeling that it's very common for dealers to take their vehicles to a smog station that is likely to do anything possible (even cheat) to make their vehicles pass. After all, they found two smog stations that would "cheat" for them. Why would a Ford dealer in Livermore drive all the way to Chevy dealer in Gilroy to get a smog test done?
IMAO, the answer is rather obvious.
What would you guys do it this situation? I am certainly leaning towards forgetting about it. [/size]
[size=10pt]
But here is the information I got from Tom.
As we expected, BAR has reasons to "believe" that increasing the idle temporarily to pass a smog test is illegal (just as expected). However, CA BAR canNOT make the determination. I would have to take the RV to a CA smog referee station. And if I do that, and it flunks at idle under them (no doubt it will) I may be forced to sell back the RV to where I purchased it. I have no intention of doing that, as I have the thing fixed up the way I want and it performs well., other than this idle smog problem.
I will get the registration sticker (but have not yet) as it has passed as far as CA DMV is concerned.
Anyway, since the catalytic converters have been replaced, I am leaning towards forgetting the entire thing and fixing the RV myself. I assume it's something small such as fuel pressure being off (I don't think anybody has checked it, so I will check it myself). And then I will see if it will pass a NV smog test, which is where I will register it next year anyway.
But I get the feeling that it's very common for dealers to take their vehicles to a smog station that is likely to do anything possible (even cheat) to make their vehicles pass. After all, they found two smog stations that would "cheat" for them. Why would a Ford dealer in Livermore drive all the way to Chevy dealer in Gilroy to get a smog test done?
IMAO, the answer is rather obvious.
What would you guys do it this situation? I am certainly leaning towards forgetting about it. [/size]
-Don- SSF, CA
Ron
Moderator Emeritus
I think I would write a letter and address it to several officials not just one and ask for a thorough investigation. After all I doubt that just one dealer uses these suspected cheat services. Also you might want them to insist the dealer fix the vehicle and return it with a valid and correct test on it.
Jim Godward
Well-known member
Don,
I would walk away and forget it. If you pursue it, you could as you indicate have to return it to the dealer. I essentially had to do that in 2000 only we cheated by adding a catalytic converter to a vehicle that "did not require one" and so would have failed if they had really looked as it was an unauthorized modification. Drove it home, took off the converter and moved to MT and never looked back!
I would walk away and forget it. If you pursue it, you could as you indicate have to return it to the dealer. I essentially had to do that in 2000 only we cheated by adding a catalytic converter to a vehicle that "did not require one" and so would have failed if they had really looked as it was an unauthorized modification. Drove it home, took off the converter and moved to MT and never looked back!
Ray D
Well-known member
Don, I have followed this thread with a good deal of interest. Haven't posted before as I had nothing helpful to say. Now, I think I do have something to say.
Bingo! Time to move on.
You have rubbed elbows with the corrupt side of life. You got no enjoyment from it, and made no profit. You did the best you could do. I'd guess you could go on with this for some time to come, and accomplish no more than you have, already. And, one could argue, you may have trained those folks in ways to be more careful, in the future. They may have profited more than you did.
Sometimes, it just pays to leave the odor behind, and as you say, forget about it.
Thanks for the effort and the interesting saga.
Ray D 8)
Bingo! Time to move on.
You have rubbed elbows with the corrupt side of life. You got no enjoyment from it, and made no profit. You did the best you could do. I'd guess you could go on with this for some time to come, and accomplish no more than you have, already. And, one could argue, you may have trained those folks in ways to be more careful, in the future. They may have profited more than you did.
Sometimes, it just pays to leave the odor behind, and as you say, forget about it.
Thanks for the effort and the interesting saga.
Ray D 8)
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DonTom
Well-known member
James Godward said:Don,
I would walk away and forget it. If you pursue it, you could as you indicate have to return it to the dealer. I essentially had to do that in 2000 only we cheated by adding a catalytic converter to a vehicle that "did not require one" and so would have failed if they had really looked as it was an unauthorized modification. Drove it home, took off the converter and moved to MT and never looked back!
Was that in CA? Or does that area of MT have smog tests? It certainly sounds like CA because I doubt if any other state would NOT allow you to IMPROVE your smog stuff. I know in NV, I can make any change I want as long as it passes a test at the tailpipe. But there, all vehicles have to be smoked checked every year. But it's done very fast, cheap and simple compared to here CA, and NV specs are looser. But CA only rarely asks anybody to have a vehicle smogged every year. However, I have heard that the every year thing is for vehicles like mine that have in the past been classified as a gross polluter (means emissions are more than twice what is allowed for a simple failed smog test).
Anyway, I would like to hear your entire story. I am not sure what you meant by "I essentially had to do that". Your message makes it sound like you might have had to return it to the dealer as well. If that's the case, why? I mean how often is it that somebody buys a used RV from a CA dealer and later finds out that they "forgot" to get it smogged?
-Don- SSF, CA
Jim Godward
Well-known member
Don
It was CA and I had a couple of choices as I had gotten a waiver the previous test when it failed. I could sell a $20,000+ motor home to the state for $400 or so $$, I could sell it to a dealer or find a way to pass the SMOG test. I suspect the history was lost when we left Compuserve. I did what I had to do as the license was about to expire and we couldn't leave CA till the house sold.
I had had the MH for 6 years at the time. Ford tried to get it to pass in '98 and failed. The dealer said they had spent about $7,000 in trying. I know they changed a lot of parts including the computer, manifolds, air pump and a few other things. In '97 CA changed the SMOG requirements on older vehicles and both Ford and Chevrolet had fought the change because they showed the vehicles could not be assurred of passing the new requirement that they were not designed for. They lost and a lot, about 30% failed when I failed in '98. It was worse in 2000 but I didn't care as I left!!
It was CA and I had a couple of choices as I had gotten a waiver the previous test when it failed. I could sell a $20,000+ motor home to the state for $400 or so $$, I could sell it to a dealer or find a way to pass the SMOG test. I suspect the history was lost when we left Compuserve. I did what I had to do as the license was about to expire and we couldn't leave CA till the house sold.
I had had the MH for 6 years at the time. Ford tried to get it to pass in '98 and failed. The dealer said they had spent about $7,000 in trying. I know they changed a lot of parts including the computer, manifolds, air pump and a few other things. In '97 CA changed the SMOG requirements on older vehicles and both Ford and Chevrolet had fought the change because they showed the vehicles could not be assurred of passing the new requirement that they were not designed for. They lost and a lot, about 30% failed when I failed in '98. It was worse in 2000 but I didn't care as I left!!
Carl L
Moderator Emeritus
Don,
Even at this late date, I would make the dealer eat the motorhome. While you can get a NV title eventually, when it comes time to sell the beast, you have cut ouit the huge neighboring California market because now you will be the seller and have to provide a clean smog test. And you will not have any pull with a shady smog tester.
Even at this late date, I would make the dealer eat the motorhome. While you can get a NV title eventually, when it comes time to sell the beast, you have cut ouit the huge neighboring California market because now you will be the seller and have to provide a clean smog test. And you will not have any pull with a shady smog tester.
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DonTom
Well-known member
"In '97 CA changed the SMOG requirements on older vehicles and both Ford and Chevrolet had fought the change because they showed the vehicles could not be assurred of passing the new requirement that they were not designed for."
If that's the case, I don't blame them for cheating.
However, the VIR shows the average readings for each vehicle. Do you remember how your RV compared to average for your model & year?
With my 2000 Express Cutaway (Tioga), max allowed HC is 150 (at both idle and 2500 RPM's). Average, for a year 2000 Express is 42. Mine at normal idle (625 RPM's) , was as high as 450 at times, but above 1,000 RPM's was always less than 100.
At 2,500 RPM's my RV is around 10 or less, which is better than average (17).
It seems rather common that if it fails at idle, it's better than average at higher RPM's and vice versa. Also, there seems to be the same "trade-off" between HC and CO.
For my RV, CO is .03, average is 3.0 max is 1.50 (Idle).
For my RV, Co is .02, average is 0.20 and max allowed is 1.50 (2,500 RPM).
As you can see, my RV is well below average everywhere except for at it's normal idle HC, where it fails miserably.
I won't be a bit surprised to find the fuel pressure too high at idle. Next time I have the engine cover off, I will be sure to check it.
If that's the case, I don't blame them for cheating.
However, the VIR shows the average readings for each vehicle. Do you remember how your RV compared to average for your model & year?
With my 2000 Express Cutaway (Tioga), max allowed HC is 150 (at both idle and 2500 RPM's). Average, for a year 2000 Express is 42. Mine at normal idle (625 RPM's) , was as high as 450 at times, but above 1,000 RPM's was always less than 100.
At 2,500 RPM's my RV is around 10 or less, which is better than average (17).
It seems rather common that if it fails at idle, it's better than average at higher RPM's and vice versa. Also, there seems to be the same "trade-off" between HC and CO.
For my RV, CO is .03, average is 3.0 max is 1.50 (Idle).
For my RV, Co is .02, average is 0.20 and max allowed is 1.50 (2,500 RPM).
As you can see, my RV is well below average everywhere except for at it's normal idle HC, where it fails miserably.
I won't be a bit surprised to find the fuel pressure too high at idle. Next time I have the engine cover off, I will be sure to check it.
-Don- SSF, CA
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DonTom
Well-known member
Carl L said:
I never sell motor vehicles so that's not an issue. I run them all into the ground to the point that few would even want them for free. I am more likely to put in a new tranny and engine than I am to sell the RV.
BTW, I still have my 1971 BMW R75/5 motorcycle! I purchased it new in May of 1971. Runs better than new (has many performance modifications).
-Don- SSF, CA
Ron
Moderator Emeritus
Maybe I am missing something here but if you can go online and see the results of the test on your vehicle and know at what idle speed the test was run the why can't the BAR or what ever the controlling agency in CA do the same? I would think that once you made the report to the BAR they, IF THEY ARE DOING THEIR JOB, would be looking at your vehicle test result very closely. But then that may not be the case if they take their job as seriously as the FDA appears to.
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DonTom
Well-known member
Ron said:
I don't think you're missing anything. I think the CA BAR just wants to refer smog stuff to a referee so they can see the test results from a place that they know they can trust. But like a lot of these type of deals, it's just more hassle for me and will only accomplish more problems for myself.
At this point, I would rather first try to fix it myself or even pay somebody else to fix it next year if it will not pass by NV standards. Like I said, I am going to take a guess that it's a fuel pressure problem and I will check that soon. If it has an adjustable fuel regulator, I can change it a bit to increase the odds of it passing at idle.
I was told today by a guy that I work with who knows more about gasoline engines than I do that, at idle, being high on HC and being well below spec on CO (which my RV is) is an indication of a LEAN mixture. That coincides with the "check engine" OBD2 code I got that time of 0171 (system too lean). This code never returned, but being too lean for a CA smog test might not always be lean enough to get a code 0171.
If the fuel pressure regulator is adjustable (I have not yet checked), I can set it a bit on the richer side which I think would solve the problem. But I will see what the fuel pressure is supposed to be first, and check it and then see if I have any room to play with.
-Don- SSF, CA
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DonTom
Well-known member
The place I purchased my RV from is going out of business.
See:
http://www.rvshowinca.com/
Might be some hot deals there! Just be sure you have all the CA smog paperwork and check it very carefully!!! ;D
I never did get my sixty bucks back for the failed smog test I had done for them. Not a big deal to me.
Even their phone at JC RV's is now disconnected.
But I am surprised they would go out of business in the very beginning of the RV season here. I would think they would be doing well now because almost all the other smaller RV places around this part of CA already went under.
See:
http://www.rvshowinca.com/
Might be some hot deals there! Just be sure you have all the CA smog paperwork and check it very carefully!!! ;D
I never did get my sixty bucks back for the failed smog test I had done for them. Not a big deal to me.
Even their phone at JC RV's is now disconnected.
But I am surprised they would go out of business in the very beginning of the RV season here. I would think they would be doing well now because almost all the other smaller RV places around this part of CA already went under.
-Don- SSF, CA
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DonTom
Well-known member
I got my CA Registration today! It only took 5 months! It's valid from "7/18/2007 until 07/18/2009". Yeah, two years which more than a year and a half has already passed. It has not been registered for a while and the CA DMV wanted their money! $469.00! It was JC RV that had to pay most of it. No wonder JC RV went out of business! ;D
But after all these CA smog test hassles, it looks like I will have to soon registered it in NV anyway as the CA registration expires in July. But I am NOT worried about it passing in NV as I just had my 1999 pick up truck smogged in Reno and I watched them do it. They only connect up to the OBD2 connector. They did NOT put anything in the tailpipe! I get a sheet that says it passed, but nothing about my HC or CO readings, nothing about idle speeds or anything like that. So in NV, I assume all they are checking is that all OBD2 sensor codes are "set" (meaning there's enough miles on them to know I didn't just clear them myself) and no codes in memory and no current codes. Very mickey-mouse compared to here in CA. A lot cheaper in NV too, only $18.75. But in NV, it has to be done every year, unlike CA which is none for the first five years on new vehicles and every other year on older vehicles.
With the old 1979 RV that I used to own, they (in Reno) did measure the readings from the tailpipe and give the CO and HC readings. I guess there's no other way to do it on the older vehicles.
I might even get my RV smogged and registered in NV next week. It already has NV insurance. I also have to get another one of my cars smogged this month in NV which is here in CA now. The RV lives in NV, so I am all set to get them both done.
-Don- SSF, CA
But after all these CA smog test hassles, it looks like I will have to soon registered it in NV anyway as the CA registration expires in July. But I am NOT worried about it passing in NV as I just had my 1999 pick up truck smogged in Reno and I watched them do it. They only connect up to the OBD2 connector. They did NOT put anything in the tailpipe! I get a sheet that says it passed, but nothing about my HC or CO readings, nothing about idle speeds or anything like that. So in NV, I assume all they are checking is that all OBD2 sensor codes are "set" (meaning there's enough miles on them to know I didn't just clear them myself) and no codes in memory and no current codes. Very mickey-mouse compared to here in CA. A lot cheaper in NV too, only $18.75. But in NV, it has to be done every year, unlike CA which is none for the first five years on new vehicles and every other year on older vehicles.
With the old 1979 RV that I used to own, they (in Reno) did measure the readings from the tailpipe and give the CO and HC readings. I guess there's no other way to do it on the older vehicles.
I might even get my RV smogged and registered in NV next week. It already has NV insurance. I also have to get another one of my cars smogged this month in NV which is here in CA now. The RV lives in NV, so I am all set to get them both done.
-Don- SSF, CA
