CA Smog Check woes

[Buddy Tott]

DonTom...You have done extrordinary investigative work yourself with regard to (possibly) identifying the Smog issue with the engine.  When you get the vehicle back in good shape and compensated for your out of pocket expenses, take your case to BAR.  Let them decide where any malfeasance lies.  That is the appropriate authority and they should be made aware of it.  If nothing else it will put the dealer and the various Smog shops involved on notice.  For all you know any and all of them may already be under some sort of investigation and your case might 'make'  theirs.  No-one in the auto repair business likes BAR sniffing around.  CA Smog testing is not a bad thing but there are too many unscrupulous people in the business. 

Whichever (one or all) is responsible they should be held accountable.  Now whether they take action or not is their call but you will have fulfilled your civic duties by reporting it to the appropriate authorities. 

BT

 

[DonTom]

If it isn't right then why worry who the cheat is pursue the issue till it is made right even if it takes calling in the BAR.  Why should you take the loss?

I think they will not take any more chances with me as they do not know if I will go to the BAR or not. They already left me with some evidence that they cheated. I don't think they would want to leave more by not doing the rest of the job correctly.

At this point, the vehicle is NOT classified  as a gross polluter. It has passed all tests and now I am simply waiting for my registration. However, they cheated to get this done. IMO, even DMV or whoever set the legal spec is at fault here too, because to allow an idle of more than 1,000 RPMs in a year 2000 engine that has its idle set at ~625 RPM by a chip in the ECM is ridiculous! This allows cheating by raising the idle with the same adjustable "stick" (that they put  between the steering and gas pedal ) they use for the 2,500 RPM test that every smog shop has.  It would be hard to drive (I really mean hard to stop!) if it really idled that way as the automatic  tranny  engages before that "idle" speed.  I guess that "idle" spec was from the carb days or something and never got updated for the newer computer controlled vehicles. On my old 1979 RV, the max idle for a CA smog test was 1,200 RPMS. I assume that idle max spec for a CA smog test has not changed since then, but should have.

All I am waiting for is for them to put on a new catalytic converter. This  will be done on Monday or Tuesday. Then I will start to deal with the money reimbursement and see how that goes. Perhaps all I will get is the sixty bucks I paid for the failed smog test in King's Beach . . unless I decide to really push the issue. I sure wasted a lot of time and gasoline on this problem which really should not even be my problem, as they sold the vehicle to me illegally. 

Perhaps, in this screwy economy,  they did not want to invest in the money upfront to fix the thing before it is sold and then they forgot about it during the week they held it after I purchased it. They broke the law by forgetting and it's even made worse by the fact it was a "gross polluter" that they sold.

I don't expect to have the RV back until Wednesday but I do NOT want it before then anyway. If the weather is good over the mountains, we will drive it back to our Reno home then.

-Don- in rainy SSF, CA​

 

[DonTom]

Whichever (one or all) is responsible they should be held accountable.   Now whether they take action or not is their call but you will have fulfilled your civic duties by reporting it to the appropriate authorities. 

Yeah, I have to agree that I probably should report them. But I told them that "I wasn't out to get anybody in trouble, I just want it fixed correctly". But  I decided that I will go by my word unless another problem comes up with dealing with them.

-Don- SSF, CA​

 

[DonTom]

I just found a neat site where you can check your (or anybody's) CA smog vehicle history with only a VIN or lic plate. See here.

-Don-​

 

[Jim Godward]

Don,

I entered the license, one of my old Ham calls, and got all but the last SMOG test on my SeaBreeze MH that I sold in 2001 out of state.  Surprising

 

[DonTom]

Don,

I entered the license, one of my old Ham calls, and got all but the last SMOG test on my SeaBreeze MH that I sold in 2001 out of state.  Surprising

Mine even showed my RV  that "passed" a few days ago, along with the certificate number. Also showed the one that passed in December of 2008 withOUT a certificate. But I bet they cheated then to make it pass too. But I don't understand why there was no certificate in December. If there were, I never would have questioned anything as then I would have purchased the RV after it "passing" and would have no reason to even think about the smog test.

-Don- SSF, CA​

 

[DonTom]

Just like last week at this time, I was expecting to get my RV back by today, and be able to drive it back to my NV home.

I wonder if this story will ever end. Here's the latest:

The Ford dealer repair shop that my Chevy RV is in just telephoned me today.  They told me that they changed the other catalytic converter and then brought it back to the "test only" smog place and it still flunked!

Perhaps part of the problem is that this Ford dealer doesn't know much about fixing Chevys. The place I purchased the RV from was a place that deals mainly with Fords, so they have their service contract with a Ford dealer.

I expect it's probably something simple now, such as incorrect fuel pressure at idle. I think it runs too well to be anything serious, such as low compression in the engine. Whatever it is, I hope this Ford dealer can figure out this Chevy.

Anyway, one thing was just proved. They are too chicken to cheat again on this one now. It's way too hot, so they (or somebody) will have to fix it right. I think it's interesting that the same place that passed it by cheating now flunks it, when it must have even lower HC readings now with the new catalytic converter.

-Don- South SF, CA​

 

[Ron]

Interesting developents there.  Too bad they are taking so long to get it right.

 

[DonTom]

Interesting developents there.  Too bad they are taking so long to get it right.

That's not too much of an issue, because I won't be using the RV any time soon anyway. And I still have their car here that we got home in.

-Don- SSF, CA​

 

[DonTom]

Don,

I entered the license, one of my old Ham calls, and got all but the last SMOG test on my SeaBreeze MH that I sold in 2001 out of state.  Surprising

The failed smog test that was done this morning is already listed on that site for my RV.

When it passes, I wonder if they will get a new certificate. I would think not.  As far as DMV is concerned it already passed when they cheated. A new certificate  might confuse things at DMV and I don't think they want to do that, unless they think I am going to fink on them, which I will NOT do, as long as I have no more problems with them.

I think there's only a very slim chance that DMV will question the ridiculous idle speed used for the test.

-Don- SSF, CA​

 

[DonTom]

This smog stuff still ain't over. The Ford Service shop that's working on my Chevy RV gave me a call this morning. They said they are having problems with their smog tester (again!). But on Monday, they expect to have their smog tester fixed and then they want to drive the RV around for 20 miles to warm it up well and then have my RV smogged.

But they are not sure if that will help and they expect one of the catalytic converters they just installed might not be performing to par. So then I asked a few questions, and sure enough, they are using rebuilt catalytic converters.

Anyway, I figure if they can get it to even barely pass at normal idle after a 20 minute warm-up, I will have no choice other than to accept it. Perhaps if it barely passes in CA, it will still pass by a nice margin in NV by it's next smog test.

But I hope it flunks on them Monday!

-Don- SSF, CA​

 

[DonTom]

[size=10pt]
But I hope it flunks on them Monday

My wish came true. It flunked big time. But they didn't get around to checking it until today (Tuesday).

They even told me after the 20 minute drive to warm it up, it flunked worse than ever! I was told that they believe that the first rebuilt catalytic converter they installed in December 2008 is not working correctly. They say it's not getting hot enough to work correctly. They are going to replace it again.

Do good  catalytic converters work hotter? I thought they work better when hotter, but would not work hotter just because they are good. I mean I thought catalytic converters relied on the engine exhaust to get them hot.

I hope they know more about catalytic converters than I do. 

I wonder what they will do if it fails even after they repalce the catalytic converter again!

-Don-  SSF, CA

 

[carson]

I am somewhat clueless about catalytic converters . I do know they run very hot..

Have you looked at this site

to get an idea? Might help.

carson FL

 

[DonTom]

I am somewhat clueless about catalytic converters . I do know they run very hot..

Have you looked at this site

to get an idea? Might help.carson FL

Interesting, but it told me everything except for what I really wanted to know.

What I really wanted to know the most about CCs:

1. What is the minimum temperature that they are effective at (I mean effective enough to pass a CA smog test!)?

2. Do new CC's  somehow run hotter than old NG CC's?

3. Do new CC's work a lot better at lower temps?

4. Are rebuilt CC's junk or do they usually work as well as new?

BTW, it's easy to measure the temperature of a CC with one of these thingies.

-Don- SSF, CA​

 

[DonTom]

I think this smog problem will soon be over!

I used that website that I mentioned earlier in this thread and it shows my motorhome had two smog tests today (on Tuesday, done just before 1500 hrs). It shows it at a Chevy dealer in Gilroy, CA.  It passed the first test and got a certificate on the second test, which means the info has been sent to DMV again.

I will probably get the RV back tomorrow (Wednesday) and drive it back to Reno. They have not called me yet, I just see the info on the website. I assume whoever drove it to Gilroy (70 miles from Livermore) had time to drive it back by 1700 hrs and it must now be back in Livermore.

I have no idea why it was driven to Gilroy for this. I can only guess. Perhaps the only reason it passed was because of the long drive there, getting things hot enough. I should get the VIR tomorrow and see the facts.

-Don-  San Francisco, CA​

 

[CaptBill]

Interested to see what the VIR has to say. Did it pass because of the 70 mile drive, or is that inspection station equipment "more forgiving". Hmmm

 

[DonTom]

Interested to see what the VIR has to say. Did it pass because of the 70 mile drive, or is that inspection station equipment "more forgiving". Hmmm

The VIR was a lot more interesting than I expected and now I have to contact the BAR or somebody who can give me an answer to a question who should know for sure.

We picked up the RV in Livermore today. Of course, the first thing I asked for was to see the VIR (before leaving SSF, I tried to ask for the VIR info on the phone but they said they didn't have all the paperwork ready).

The newest VIR shows the idle test speed at:

1077 RPM!!!! Yes, over 1,000 again!

This was from the Chevy dealer in Gilroy. Of course, it passed at this RPM. After getting a lot of different answers from different people, finally the Livermore Group Service Director got involved and made a telphone call to the place that smogged the RV in Gilroy. The place in Gilroy said it was perfectly legal to increase the RPM's for a CA smog test. I wasn't going to argue with them and took the RV back and drove it back here to Reno.

Also, I got to look at the VIR they (Livermore) did in December (the one that never got a certificate, but passed). It showed the idle at 630 and passed by better than average. But now, just a few months later, and only a few hundred miles later, it will only pass if they increase the idle by forcing pressure on the accelerator pedal.

Now, let's think about if this is legal. If it is legal, then that means at my normal in spec idle (~625 RPM) I can pollute CA's air as much as possible (and this RV is  three times max allowed, well into being a gross polluter by CA standards at 625 RPM's) as long as it passed where it does NOT ever idle at. This just doesn't make a lot of sense.

And if it's legal, why did they take the RV back and spend over $2,000.00 on it (I saw the bill to JC RV) ?

If I tried to get this smogged in CA next year, and if I asked the smog place to raise the idle to above 1,000 for the idle test, what type of answer would you expect I would get (this question is for everybody)? My guess is that they would NOT even think about doing that for any RV owner and then explain how they could lose their license if they did.

Perhaps when dealers get vehicles smogged, it's common practice to raise the idle to get their vehicles to pass, from the smog places that they have contracts with.

Anyway, I will soon make a phone call to BAR and see if I can get a live person who knows CA smog laws to talk to who can explain if this is legal. If it is, just remember we can all pollute CA's air as much as we want at our idle speeds as long as it passes above 1,000 RPM's.

But laws are not always based on logic.

Anyway, they first picked up my RV with a full tank of gasoline and they agreed to put a "hundred bucks" work of gasoline into the tank on them. However, they use the dealer's gasoline there on the lot which is $3.50 per gallon. But it was close enough to full after that, so there's no problem there.
.

-Don- Reno, NV​

 

[Tom]

One thing I'm confused/surprised about is that the test machine allows it to proceed. I've watched the screen while a test was in progress, and the operator is given an RPM range in which to stay. The machine displays actual RPM and appears to require it (the RPM) to stay in that range for some given period of time.

I do recall seeing the "stick" approach being used, but that was quite a few years ago. I assumed they'd since changed the software to not proceed if the RPM was out of range. Maybe these guys have an old machine with old software? Or maybe there's some official override allowed for a gross polluter?

 

[CaptBill]

And why did they take it to Gilroy, 70 miles away, when they could have taken it to Livermore again. Did they know it was on the edge, and hope that it would squeak by? Why not call a few DMV test facilities, and ask annonomously if you can bring your vehicle for inspection, and increase the idle speed over 1000 to "get it to pass". Ask if they will allow you to do that. I think we know the answer, so I am with you on contacting BAR. They are dumping the problem of repair, squarely in YOUR lap, as they seem to be done with it.

 

[DonTom]

One thing I'm confused/surprised about is that the test machine allows it to proceed.

My old 1978 junky RV, before I changed it to MPFI, had a carburetor that would not idle below 1,000. For 1978 vehicles, both CA and NV allowed the idle to be as high as 1,200 for an idle test. It seems they never changed it for the newer vehicles that have a chip in the ECM to set the idle which could never idle so high and has no way to adjust. But that doesn't mean they can legally cheat by forcing a higher idle than where it really idles at.

And why did they take it to Gilroy, 70 miles away, when they could have taken it to Livermore again. Did they know it was on the edge, and hope that it would squeak by?

I assume they wanted to bring it to a Chevy dealer that the Ford dealer had a contract with. I noticed when the Service Director called the place in Gilroy, he had the Gilroy number programmed into his cellphone so he did not have to dial the complete number. But they also know one of the catalytic converters is not getting hot enough to work properly, so the hotter they get it, the better. I have no problem with the fact that it has to get hot by driving a long way as long as it's still within the normal operating temperature for the engine. I only have a problem with that they "cheat" by raising the RPM's to a point where it would never idle anything near. There's obviously something wrong, proved by the fact that it once passed by a large margin at it's normal idle speed.

But the RV runs great over the mountains to get here in Reno, so whatever the problem is, it only affects the emissions at normal idle.

-Don- Reno, NV​