A special message of thanks for our President
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Tom
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[quote author=Wendy]If you have a boss, then he paid half so if you had $4000 withheld, then you made $52,000.
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Wendy,
I doubt very much that the illegals I see daily working in the fields earn $52K/year. Farmers just don't pay $25/hour, and that's assuming they worked 52 weeks a year, which they don't. That's my whole point - the numbers don't add up. Just a sanity check
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Wendy,
I doubt very much that the illegals I see daily working in the fields earn $52K/year. Farmers just don't pay $25/hour, and that's assuming they worked 52 weeks a year, which they don't. That's my whole point - the numbers don't add up. Just a sanity check
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[quote author=RV Roamer]We could require that SS tax be withheld whether the worker has an SS# or not.[/quote]
Gary,
FWIW illegals are just plain not allowed to work here, and companies would be in trouble if they were caught hiring illegals. In fact, there have been a number of high profile cases involving such companies, eventually raided by the INS.
To add some clarification to the discussion of legal vs illegal ....
Being here legally dos not entitle someone to work here; That's a whole separate ball game. We've been through it all ourselves, and separately with our adult kids (youngest is 40) who are legally employed and helping to pay my SS benefits with their taxes.
Gary,
FWIW illegals are just plain not allowed to work here, and companies would be in trouble if they were caught hiring illegals. In fact, there have been a number of high profile cases involving such companies, eventually raided by the INS.
To add some clarification to the discussion of legal vs illegal ....
Being here legally dos not entitle someone to work here; That's a whole separate ball game. We've been through it all ourselves, and separately with our adult kids (youngest is 40) who are legally employed and helping to pay my SS benefits with their taxes.
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Tom
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[quote author=Wendy]You asked, I answered.[/quote]
You sure did Wendy, thanks.
BTW I'll probably re-title this discussion later this evening, when things have quietened down and/or folks are in bed. Maybe it should be "Mr. President, please keep my illegal wages coming, and be sure to keep SS afloat" ???
You sure did Wendy, thanks.
BTW I'll probably re-title this discussion later this evening, when things have quietened down and/or folks are in bed. Maybe it should be "Mr. President, please keep my illegal wages coming, and be sure to keep SS afloat" ???
Utclmjmpr
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Tom, it has been a great read and I enjoyed it, but sure raises hair on some people.>>>D
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Tom
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[quote author=utahclaimjumper]... but sure raises hair on some people.>>>D
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LOL, it seems to do that, although that was not the intent of my first message which seemed to act like a lightning rod.
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LOL, it seems to do that, although that was not the intent of my first message which seemed to act like a lightning rod.
taoshum
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Wendy said:
Hi Wendy,
LOL, but we already been there, several times.
DonTom
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seilerbird said:
I can argue anything, including logic, especially with the help of my quote collection:
"Logic is the anatomy of thought."
--John Locke
"Logic is neither a science nor an art, but a dodge."
--Benjamin Jowett
"Logic: an instrument used for bolstering a prejudice."
--Elbert Hubbard
"Man is not logical and his intellectual history is a record of mental reserves and compromises. He hangs on to what he can in his old beliefs even when he is compelled to surrender their logical basis."
--John Dewey
"Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence."
--Joseph Wood Krutch
"Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic."
--William E Gladstone
"Logic, like whiskey, loses its beneficial effect when taken in too large quantities."
--Lord Dunsany
"The mind has its own logic but does not often let others in on it."
--Bernard de Voto
For opinions:
"He that never changes his opinions, never corrects his mistakes, and will never be wiser on the morrow than he is today."
--Tryon Edwards
"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
- Bertrand Russell
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth."
-Marcus Aurelius
"You have the right to an Informed opinion."
Harlan Ellison
"Don't judge a man by his opinions, but by what his opinions have made him."
--G. C Lichtenberg
"Public opinion is a weak tyrant, compared with our private opinion--what a man thinks of himself, that is which determines, or rather indicates his fate."
--Henry David Thoreau
"In this and like communities, public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail; without it nothing can succeed."
--Abraham Lincoln
"Those who never retract their opinions love themselves more than they love truth."
--Joseph Joubert
"With effervescing opinions, the quickest way to let them get flat is to let them get exposed to the air."
--Oliver Wendell Holmes
"Opinions cannot survive if one has no chance to fight for them."
--Thomas Mann
"It is the difference of opinion that makes horse races."
--Mark Twain
"The foolish and the dead alone never change their opinions."
--James Russell Lowell
"I had grown tired of standing in the lean and lonely front line facing the greatest enemy that ever confronted man--public opinion."
--Clarence Darrow
"There are as many opinions as there are experts."
--Franklin Delano Roosevelt
"Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts."
--Bernard M. Baruch
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
-Don Quoteman, SF, CA
BernieD
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utahclaimjumper said:
Sorry, word slip. Should be illegal alien.
sheltie
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Tom - the first thing I thought of when you wrote "illegal aliens" was ET!!!
I appear to be in the same age group as many of the other sages on this forum and I've heard ever since SS was a thought in my mind that it was going broke and that I'd never get to receive any benefit of my paying into it. Far more wiser people than I still maintain that today as has seen on this forum. I can't argue facts with them as my only area of expertise in this world is golf. However, there is no doubt or fear in my heart that as long as I live, I'll continue to draw SS. If this is a drain on the next (and next, and next etc) generation, so be it. That's what I know. Whether or not it's ok is something else entirely different and I don't let it bother me.
I appear to be in the same age group as many of the other sages on this forum and I've heard ever since SS was a thought in my mind that it was going broke and that I'd never get to receive any benefit of my paying into it. Far more wiser people than I still maintain that today as has seen on this forum. I can't argue facts with them as my only area of expertise in this world is golf. However, there is no doubt or fear in my heart that as long as I live, I'll continue to draw SS. If this is a drain on the next (and next, and next etc) generation, so be it. That's what I know. Whether or not it's ok is something else entirely different and I don't let it bother me.
BernieD
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Tom
As I said, the $6B was hearsay and I have not documented it, just labeled it correctly as hearsay. To add to Wendy's table, Federal Income Tax withholding is included in that $6B figure. I find it a waste of time to try and count the number of angels that can fit on the tip of a pin or try and document when SS will go broke. IMO, the government won't let it happen one way or another and all of our discussions about illegal aliens, SS funding and all the rest won't change it. As long as we keep electing people to Congress beholden to special interest groups we will suffer the consequences.
As I said, the $6B was hearsay and I have not documented it, just labeled it correctly as hearsay. To add to Wendy's table, Federal Income Tax withholding is included in that $6B figure. I find it a waste of time to try and count the number of angels that can fit on the tip of a pin or try and document when SS will go broke. IMO, the government won't let it happen one way or another and all of our discussions about illegal aliens, SS funding and all the rest won't change it. As long as we keep electing people to Congress beholden to special interest groups we will suffer the consequences.
BernieD
Well-known member
Tom
To use some numbers, someone being paid $20,000 per year would have about $3,000/year contributed to FICA (see Wendy's numbers) and maybe a similar amount withheld for FIT. It would only take 1 million illegal aliens (out of your 20M figure) with false documentation and a $20,000/year job to make up the $6B.
To use some numbers, someone being paid $20,000 per year would have about $3,000/year contributed to FICA (see Wendy's numbers) and maybe a similar amount withheld for FIT. It would only take 1 million illegal aliens (out of your 20M figure) with false documentation and a $20,000/year job to make up the $6B.
What I find so frustrating is what I interpret as a general sense of malaise that accompanies this discussion. Maybe I am unjustly fired up over the issue, but I can't help get charged up when presented with the facts.
To be clear, the system going bankrupt will not cause the payments to beneficiaries. Again, I have no doubt the checks will continue, and I also have no doubt (unless someone can show be some evidence to the contrary) that this program if left unchecked will begin adding significantly to the deficit by 2017 and will be fully in peril by around 2030 when the % of GDP necessary to support the system starts to climb above 5% (Currently it takes 3%). For reference it was 1% in the 1970s and 2% around 1990.
Combined with the ever present and growing cost of healthcare (regardless of whether it remains private or gets converted to a public program), we are approaching a point somewhere in the not to distant future where the burden of these social programs will crush the economy. It is unavoidable.
To make a poor analogy, it is akin to getting fat. If you consume 200 more calories than you need everyday, you may not see the results of that for a long time, but the weight will creep up on you (trust me I know). Left unchecked for years, you'll will get fat. You have two options: 1) cut down on the calories a little bit now and avoid getting fat (not that painful), or 2) wait until you are fat and have to make a dramatic cut and or lifestyle change (very painful).
I'm not saying we've got to stop eating, I am just proposing we cut the calories a bit.
To be clear, the system going bankrupt will not cause the payments to beneficiaries. Again, I have no doubt the checks will continue, and I also have no doubt (unless someone can show be some evidence to the contrary) that this program if left unchecked will begin adding significantly to the deficit by 2017 and will be fully in peril by around 2030 when the % of GDP necessary to support the system starts to climb above 5% (Currently it takes 3%). For reference it was 1% in the 1970s and 2% around 1990.
Combined with the ever present and growing cost of healthcare (regardless of whether it remains private or gets converted to a public program), we are approaching a point somewhere in the not to distant future where the burden of these social programs will crush the economy. It is unavoidable.
To make a poor analogy, it is akin to getting fat. If you consume 200 more calories than you need everyday, you may not see the results of that for a long time, but the weight will creep up on you (trust me I know). Left unchecked for years, you'll will get fat. You have two options: 1) cut down on the calories a little bit now and avoid getting fat (not that painful), or 2) wait until you are fat and have to make a dramatic cut and or lifestyle change (very painful).
I'm not saying we've got to stop eating, I am just proposing we cut the calories a bit.
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Tom
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[quote author=BernieD]I find it a waste of time to try and count the number of angels ...[/quote]
Couldn't resist counting the angels, eh ;D
Couldn't resist counting the angels, eh ;D
taoshum
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Unfortunately, the analogy may be just the opposite... there are lots of people whose only income is SS and a reduction in their income will take them from survival to starvation instead of going from pleasantly plump to morbidly obese. Maybe "more trips to the moon" and more spy satellites at NSA" is important but it is also important to provide the safety net to our elders that they depend upon "no matter what else happens", IMHO. How many deaths, in the US, from lack of healthcare and/or lack of nutrition is acceptable? 1000? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? How many bankruptcies, in the US, from lack of healthcare is acceptable? It was 100,000 last year. I suspect that no matter who you are or how wealthy you feel today, it wouldn't take much to see this change so that it is not someone else's problem... Who would have thought that home prices would fall 50% in less than a year in some areas of the country? Who would have thought that the prices of MH's would fall more than 50% in less than one year? Oh, nevermind, it's only Wednesday and the DJIA is up today.
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Tom
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Christian,
I came from a socialist country where Taxes take a very high percentage of wages, and I found it extremely frustrating to see folks milking the system at all levels. Legal and illegal immigrants continue to flock there, demand all kinds of benefits, and get them. The country has been "going broke" for as long as I can remember, but they continue to pay out. Thanks to information provided by another forum member, I'm going to stake my state pension claim there too.
I came from a socialist country where Taxes take a very high percentage of wages, and I found it extremely frustrating to see folks milking the system at all levels. Legal and illegal immigrants continue to flock there, demand all kinds of benefits, and get them. The country has been "going broke" for as long as I can remember, but they continue to pay out. Thanks to information provided by another forum member, I'm going to stake my state pension claim there too.
Tom said:
I think the most telling statistic is debt as a percentage of GDP. Britain is well about 100%, Japan is at almost 2x GDP, while the U.S. is rapidly closing in on 50% of GDP. Economically vibrant countries like China and India run at close to zero or below (surplus).
It is easy to continue to spend as Britain has, but as we are seeing with the weakening dollar and pound relative to other global currencies, eventually, the economy will slow and stagnate while the rest of the world surpasses you. The U.S. is in a period of serious economic decline. We can choose to come to terms with the "why" and try and address it, or we can ignore the "why" and continue down a path toward economic irrelevancy. I would like to believe American's want to remain an economic super power. It is our economic might that allows for our military might, which in turns provides us our security. Without the first, the second cannot survive (just ask the former USSR). Unfortunately, our behaviors don't support that goal.
Our current economic power is now derived from the financial and services sector, not the manufacturing and industrial sectors our modern economy was founded on. The manufacturing and industrial sector created the middle class that is dwindling today. The financial and services sectors do not support that, and that can be seen in the widening income gap and increasing disparity between the haves and have nots. That disparity in turn increases the need for social welfare programs like SS and Medicare, while pushing more of the financial burden of such programs on to a shrinking number of tax payers. We must restore a balance that promotes a strong middle class and that means rebuilding the manufacturing base we once relied on.
Maybe I am just a doomsdayer, but I find it hard to ignore the evidence we are faced with. The American people (natural born or otherwise) are the single greatest talent pool and innovative thinkers on the planet. It is high time we use that for the advancement of our nation instead of individual financial interests. With the success of one comes the success of the other and the sooner we can come to terms with that the sooner we can begin to right the ship.
To your great pleasure, I am going shut my yap for a while on this issue as clearly I am more passionate about it than the general forum community. I'd be happy to discuss/debate with anyone in the future if you want to send a PM.
Thanks,
Christian
taoshum
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Mc2guy said:
Right you are!!!! There are three ways to "create wealth" --- Mine it, Manufacture it or Grow it... everything else just moves money from one person to another and we're losing on all three counts
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Tom
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No disagreement Christian although, despite having a manufacturing background, I'm having a tough time understanding how we can return to manufacturing strength.
Don't assume that others here aren't equally or more passionate; They just show their passion in other ways, and prefer not to get involved in a debate that might spiral downwards. Not sure what my great pleasure might be ???
I once had a boss who proclaimed to his executive staff that "nobody but me has any passion around here". I had to correct him by explaining that he was the only one wearing it on his shirt sleeve, while most of the rest of us in the room were inwardly equally passionate about the subject.
Don't assume that others here aren't equally or more passionate; They just show their passion in other ways, and prefer not to get involved in a debate that might spiral downwards. Not sure what my great pleasure might be ???
I once had a boss who proclaimed to his executive staff that "nobody but me has any passion around here". I had to correct him by explaining that he was the only one wearing it on his shirt sleeve, while most of the rest of us in the room were inwardly equally passionate about the subject.
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