CCC as it relates to safety

[afchap]

Published CCC on our 2003 WInnebago Ultimate Advantage, Spartan Chassis, is 3,270 lb ...that includes 4 people, 100 gallon of water, 100 gallon of diesel, and 37 gallon of LP.  It came with H rated tires with more carrying capacity than the axles have.  We normally travel with weight equivalent to apx 2.5 of their sized people , maybe 25 gallon of LP, maybe 25-30 gallon of water, and apx 50-100 gallon of diesel. We have had four corner weights done twice, once before fulltiming and once after. Our fulltiming weight was under our max weight ...but close enough that I continue to pay attention to what goes in and what must come out to stay under the max weight.

 

[BernieD]

A few years ago I read a review of a high-end coach (maybe a Bluebird??)  in FMCA or Motorhome magazine that had a CCC of of a couple of hundred pounds  : .  I don't remember the exact number but the point was the coach was essentially useless as produced.  It might have been a prototype or concept coach - unfortunately I just don't remember the specifics.

The coach was a custom built $1,000,000+ Newell and, IIRC, had about 600#s available for passengers and cargo. Presumably the buyer, who was involved in specing the unit, was forewarned about the limited capacity, but wasn't concerned. Probably had a special use where the CCC wasn't of concern.

By the way, GVWRs are based on the lowest common denominator. Take the capacities of the suspension, tires, axles and brakes (very important in differentiating between GVWR and GCWR) and the lowest capacity of any in any position is the value used. That is why the only advantage you get by upgrading tires to a higher load range is possible lower tire pressures since you can't increase the weight rating.

 

[BB]

Tom, good link.  I see two problems, the author is presuming empty holding tanks and I didn't see the tongue hitch weight factored in, or did I miss it.

John, regardless of the physical set up of the coach the fact remains that if it is loaded for the intended purpose the owner/operator IS overweight and in the event of a fatality it will not make any difference if you are only a -little- overweight because you will still be 100% negligent.

It is NOT just Winnebago, but they are the largest manufacturer to put people at risk-knowingly doing so.

Sarge,  I gotta find out if the other rv would be legal.

 

[Tom]

[quote author=BB]I see two problems, the author is presuming empty holding tanks....[/quote]

We leave home with empty waste tanks, and usually dump our tanks before leaving a campground. The note at the bottom of the article says:

"When your coach is loaded, you should take it to a public scale and weigh the front and rear axles and individual wheels to ensure that an individual axle or tire is not overloaded, and to be able to accurately determine the correct tire pressures."

So, if you plan to run with full waste tanks, be sure they're full when you weigh the RV. I have no way of accurately determining the weight of a full black tank.

...I didn't see the tongue hitch weight factored in, or did I miss it.

I used our coach and toad as the examples in the article. We tow all 4 down, so the tongue weight is zero, or close enough that it can be ignored in this calculation. If you tow a car on a dolly, the tongue weight should be added. Presumably, if you weigh the coach "fully loaded", then any tongue weight is included.

When time permits, I'll add a note to the article.

 

[Bob.n.Sue]

"When your coach is loaded, you should take it to a public scale and weigh the front and rear axles and individual wheels to ensure that an individual axle or tire is not overloaded, and to be able to accurately determine the correct tire pressures."

That is the point I was trying to make with my coach, Tom.  With the L/F corner within 50 lbs of its max., seems like the actual max GVW is effectively 4500 plus pounds less than the published max GVW.  Very little of that is adjustable either.  Being a front-kitchen plan, the fridge is almost directly over the L/F tire.

 

[Tom]

Aye Bob, your example illustrates the point very well.

 

[Bob.n.Sue]

And that's before the iceman puts the blocks of ice in!

 

[John Canfield]

John, regardless of the physical set up of the coach the fact remains that if it is loaded for the intended purpose the owner/operator IS overweight

Sorry, I can't agree with your premise which seems to be conjecture unless you actually own or have owned a 2005 View/Navion and have discovered this empirically.

Looks like we have a good start for a new thread on CCC, so I'm going to split off these posts and move them to the Motorhome board.

 

[BB]

John, if the ccc is under 400 lbs on a coach how would it be possible NOT to be over.

Tom, I think water is 8.75 lbs / gallon.  Is it an issue probably not unless you decide to water up and also decide NOT to dump until you get to the next site-maybe the line is long at the station, maybe there are problems at the station, just thirty gallons is 240lbs or so, and if you are in an early View you have reason for concern.

 

[Tom]

BB, we've camped at RV parks and boondocked for many years in both our motorhome and our boat. The only time I recall getting anywhere close to worrying about full waste tank(s) is after 10 days at Quartzsite. There is a dump station across the highway, and I've also used the honey wagon once or twice there.

Never say never - one time (approx 9 years ago) at a forum rally in Moab, we didn't have a sewer hookup, and had to make a few trips to the dump station. Usually, this was at happy hour, and we received a big cheer from rally attendees every time we made the trip. No line but, if there had been, we could have dumped at the campground next door for a small fee.

In any event, we're not close to the limits on our coach, but I do allow a healthy margin when figuring the tire pressures.

 

[John Canfield]

John, if the ccc is under 400 lbs on a coach how would it be possible NOT to be over.

This will be my last response as we are simply trading opinions.  First off, there is no 2005 View/Navion, the first model year was 2007.  Secondly, you claim the CCC for the 2005 View/Navion is ~400 pounds.  The CCC is calculated on a vehicle by vehicle basis and the figure depends on how the the unit was equipped with options.  Thirdly, using your figure of 400 pounds, 400 pounds of personal stuff in a 23' or 24' View/Navion would be plenty unless you are planning on collecting depleted uranium as you tour weapon production facilities across the country.

If you have some personal knowledge that 400 pounds of personal effects aren't enough in a View/Navion (you would likely pack more stuff in), I would certainly like to hear about it, otherwise it is simply your opinion and let's end it here.

 

[Tony_Alberta]

I have no way of accurately determining the weight of a full black tank.

I would think the equivalent in pounds per gallon would be pretty darned close.

 

[SargeW]

It is NOT just Winnebago, but they are the largest manufacturer to put people at risk-knowingly doing so.

Sarge,  I gotta find out if the other rv would be legal.

I think that statement is a little strong.  Like I said earlier, I don't believe ANY manufacturer produces any rig that is over weight when it rolls off the line.  Do I think that manufacturers press the limits with the allowable weight vs what there is room to carry.  Again that is owner beware. 

I too would like to find out what the real world weight would be on a 39' Journey or Meridian.  I however will be the first to admit that I load my coach carefully and precisely to carry as much of the stuff that I think I need with me all the time.  So do I load heavy? Absolutely. Is it excessive?  NO.

 

[BB]

Sarge, perhaps the language is strong however I feel that the subject is a matter of life and death, literally.

John,  we are both incorrect; Winnebago introduced the View in '05 as an '06 model.

There may be a less confrontational manner in which I can get my curiosity satisfied and I will pose this to you and of course for anyone else who wishes to help me understand the concept:

I have a motorhome which has a OCCC of 949 lbs and which the manufacturer states is designed to sleep four; for our purposes the occupants will be two adults, male at 210lbs, female at 140lbs, and two non adults at 100lbs each, potable tank-37 gal, black tank-33 gal, gray tank-27 gal, water heater-6 gal, lp-13 gal, fuel-25 gal, ccc-860, scwr-462

How much capcity is left for 'stuff' normally associated with 4 people going out camping?-for the purposes of our discussion lets accept the following values, propane at 4.24 lbs/gal, water at 8.3 lbs/gal, and diesel at 7.4 lbs/gal.

On the back of the coach we will have four bicycles at say, 30lbs each, four typical folding chairs at 8lbs each and the hitch mounted carrier at 40 lbs.

Lastly, we selected the optional generator at 280 lbs to be installed under the coach.


Am I legal or overweight, and by how much?

 

[BernieD]

BB

Just a comment for your calculations. It is highly unlikely you would have a full fresh water, gray and black tanks all at the same time. The mode for getting weighed is full fuel, full water, empty black and gray. Filling the black and gray would normally be accompanied by emptying the fresh water.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

And diesel fuel & propane need not be included - the federal OCCC defines the vehicle weight to include both a full tank of motor fuel and propane. If the generator was factory or dealer installed, it too is already include in the vehicle weight.

Therefore you only need to consider passengers, water and your personal gear/food/etc. that you load on board yourself.

 

[BernieD]

But you do need to remember to have a full load of fuel and propane when you get it weighed.

 

[BB]

Gary, you are correct and I thank you for that info.
I was able to reach someone at BB rv, remember their motto:  we screw the coach not the customer (did I say I really, really like that?) and here is what I learned:

the coach in question WAS weighted with all options, wet, but included but one person, the driver with an allowance of 150lbs, that is it and the reserve weight was given as 687lbs so here goes:  we gotta deduct fifty more lbs for a normal sized guy driver, so we are down to 637, the dw at 140 brings us down to 497, two kids at 100 a pop, brings us to 297 and the stuff on the back gets us to 107 lbs for everything else, add clothes, food, and accessories and you are an outlaw by a healthy amount, add a toad/utility trailer and you are elevated to Jesse James status.

Yea or nay??

 

[SargeW]

add a toad/utility trailer and you are elevated to Jesse James status.

Yea or nay??

Nay. The GVWR of a vehicle counts what the total weight of the vehicle itself is.  The Gross Combination Weight Rating GCWR is higher, depending on the rating of the towing vehicle.  Usually the only weight added to the towing vehicle would be part of whatever the tow bar weighs.  You can be at or near your GVWR and still safely and legally tow another vehicle.  I am within about 1200 pounds of my GVWR and still safely and legally tow my #5000 Jeep.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

BB, you have trotted out so many different numbers I am totally confused. If the OCCC is 949 as you stated in one message, then subtract the excess driver weight (50#), passenger weight, and the "stuff on the back" and what's left is the amount for the gear in the drawers and closets.