CPAP/BIPAP machines
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Ian
Well-known member
Well I'm not overweight. Since November I have dropped from my regular 77kg down to my present 70kg (170 --> 154) which my quack tells me is perfect for my height. But I have sleep apnea, according to my sleep doc a couple years back it was at best 20 eps per hour, at worst 33 per hour. Too low to get Government help to get a CPAP so nothing to be done about it. They did tell me to watch my weight and exercise. I have never been smoker so that hasn't been a cause of any problems.
While in Japan last year I got a memory foam pillow with a nice curvature to accommodate the neck. Since that time my snoring has dropped considerably and the number of 'rude' awakenings, the times when your heart startup routine gets you up and at 'em with loads too much adrenaline around the bloodstream, have dropped to an average of zero. Before the pillow it was an average of about 6 a week or worse. I can recall nights when the big one hit and I stayed up for long minutes trying to calm the body and absorb the adrenaline.
For those wondering what I mean about the big one, think of it as a near death situation when the brain triggered a restart because the oxygen level had gone way below tolerance. Them hurt, and by the by, scare the pants off ya!
The curved neck pillow isn't the full answer but it sure has been a big help to me to bring it down to manageable proportions. And though it does feel firm to the touch, with regular contact the foam softens by body heat and truly, it is just so comfortable I have given up my other pillows because I now get a full night's sleep. I don't know what the current rate of sleep apnea is, I would need a sleep centre to work that out, but if the big ones don't happen any more then that has to have been a considerable reduction doesn't it?
Now, as to when this kind of thing starts, I have early memories as a child of two or three having frightening nightmares of suddenly waking up with heavy pressure on my chest if I slept on my back. Guess what. Sleep apnea. I have had it for life, just not noticed it that much because it has always been there.
They call it the Silent Killer because in so many cases it doesn't get diagnosed. If you or your partner snore, or wake up suddenly in the night, or wake up in the morning feeling absolutely drained as if you have been running a marathon, get it checked out, sleep apnea is way more common than you might think.
While in Japan last year I got a memory foam pillow with a nice curvature to accommodate the neck. Since that time my snoring has dropped considerably and the number of 'rude' awakenings, the times when your heart startup routine gets you up and at 'em with loads too much adrenaline around the bloodstream, have dropped to an average of zero. Before the pillow it was an average of about 6 a week or worse. I can recall nights when the big one hit and I stayed up for long minutes trying to calm the body and absorb the adrenaline.
For those wondering what I mean about the big one, think of it as a near death situation when the brain triggered a restart because the oxygen level had gone way below tolerance. Them hurt, and by the by, scare the pants off ya!
The curved neck pillow isn't the full answer but it sure has been a big help to me to bring it down to manageable proportions. And though it does feel firm to the touch, with regular contact the foam softens by body heat and truly, it is just so comfortable I have given up my other pillows because I now get a full night's sleep. I don't know what the current rate of sleep apnea is, I would need a sleep centre to work that out, but if the big ones don't happen any more then that has to have been a considerable reduction doesn't it?
Now, as to when this kind of thing starts, I have early memories as a child of two or three having frightening nightmares of suddenly waking up with heavy pressure on my chest if I slept on my back. Guess what. Sleep apnea. I have had it for life, just not noticed it that much because it has always been there.
They call it the Silent Killer because in so many cases it doesn't get diagnosed. If you or your partner snore, or wake up suddenly in the night, or wake up in the morning feeling absolutely drained as if you have been running a marathon, get it checked out, sleep apnea is way more common than you might think.
Luca1369
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- Feb 27, 2008
- Posts
- 1,410
Wendy said:
I've had several nights where I could not use my CPAP due to loss of power (on my boat at a marina in Guatemala comes to mind; the power kept going out). Although I didn't feel endangered by not using my CPAP, I certainly could tell I didn't use it, both during the night as I slept, and especially the next day. There's very little that will keep me from sleeping without my CPAP (power loss primarily) and I DO NOT like sleeping without it. When boondocking, my CPAP can run off a small inverter and as long as the batteries are kept topped off will easily run all night with no problem leaving me with power in the morning.
Steve
Clay L
Well-known member
Regarding power drain and inverters:
My CPAP machine is a Respironics Remstar Pro.
The blower and circuitry will run on 12 vdc but the humidifier requires ac voltage.
According to technical customer service the machine will run on a 300 watt modified sine wave inverter.
The blower and associated circuitry requires 3 amps at 12.6 volts.
For eight hours of use that would be 3 X 8 = 24 amp hours.
The humidifier requires 170 watts. Amps = watts/volts. 170/12.6 = 13.5 amps. Eight hours of use would = 13.5 x 8 = 108 amp hours. You might want to increase that by ten percent or so to allow for the inverter efficiency. 1.1 x 108 = 119 amp hours.
Total amp hours for eight hours use would be 119 + 24 = 143 amp hours.
These are maximum numbers I got from technical customer service. I assume they reflect a humidity setting of 5 and the maximum pressure setting - of 25 cm H2o as I recall.
From reading what people that boondock say I think that the drain for many people is less than the max numbers above even with the humidifier going.
My CPAP machine is a Respironics Remstar Pro.
The blower and circuitry will run on 12 vdc but the humidifier requires ac voltage.
According to technical customer service the machine will run on a 300 watt modified sine wave inverter.
The blower and associated circuitry requires 3 amps at 12.6 volts.
For eight hours of use that would be 3 X 8 = 24 amp hours.
The humidifier requires 170 watts. Amps = watts/volts. 170/12.6 = 13.5 amps. Eight hours of use would = 13.5 x 8 = 108 amp hours. You might want to increase that by ten percent or so to allow for the inverter efficiency. 1.1 x 108 = 119 amp hours.
Total amp hours for eight hours use would be 119 + 24 = 143 amp hours.
These are maximum numbers I got from technical customer service. I assume they reflect a humidity setting of 5 and the maximum pressure setting - of 25 cm H2o as I recall.
From reading what people that boondock say I think that the drain for many people is less than the max numbers above even with the humidifier going.
Tom
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Ian,
Interesting story re the pillow, thanks for sharing that. Have any of the docs been able to explain it medically?
For clarification, my reference to smoking in my prior message was not meant to suggest that smoking is a contributor to sleep apnea; It was merely intended as an analogy to the challenges associated with changing habits &/or lifestyle. I haven't smoked for 32 years, but there are many times when I could light up a cigarette today. Similar experiences with eating and other habits. Worst of all is knowing that, if I returned to my smoking habit, appetite would decrease significantly, and pounds would be shed with little effort.
Interesting story re the pillow, thanks for sharing that. Have any of the docs been able to explain it medically?
For clarification, my reference to smoking in my prior message was not meant to suggest that smoking is a contributor to sleep apnea; It was merely intended as an analogy to the challenges associated with changing habits &/or lifestyle. I haven't smoked for 32 years, but there are many times when I could light up a cigarette today. Similar experiences with eating and other habits. Worst of all is knowing that, if I returned to my smoking habit, appetite would decrease significantly, and pounds would be shed with little effort.
OP
OP
judway
Well-known member
I have the Respironics REMstar Plus, M series.
The Machine Manual says that the DC power consumption is: 12 VDC, 3.0 A max.
The Humidifier Manual says that the DC power consumption is: 11-17 V, 4.16 A max.
The above means that the maximum draw would be 7.16 A and at 12.6 VDC the power would be 90.2 Watts max.
With a fully charged pair of golf cart batteries you should be able to get around 15 hours before the battery is down to half charge.
I have found that my system will run on 12 VDC from a cigar lighter type of source in the motorhome. However, the system was set for 9 cm pressure and 5 (maximum) setting on the humidifier.
I have pulled a #8 wire from a good 12 V source on the jacks pump and have it to the compartment under the bed. I will finish the output jack with a pair of #10's, so there should be no problem running my system on DC in the motorhome.
If these numbers are acceptable, then the Respironics M series is a good choice to run on 12VDC.
From the manuals, the AC maximum current is: 1.0 A for the machine and 1.2 A for the humidifier. At 120 VAC this would be 264 Watts. I am now all packed to go RVing this weekend, but I will measure the power and volt amperes used when I get setup tonight.
The Machine Manual says that the DC power consumption is: 12 VDC, 3.0 A max.
The Humidifier Manual says that the DC power consumption is: 11-17 V, 4.16 A max.
The above means that the maximum draw would be 7.16 A and at 12.6 VDC the power would be 90.2 Watts max.
With a fully charged pair of golf cart batteries you should be able to get around 15 hours before the battery is down to half charge.
I have found that my system will run on 12 VDC from a cigar lighter type of source in the motorhome. However, the system was set for 9 cm pressure and 5 (maximum) setting on the humidifier.
I have pulled a #8 wire from a good 12 V source on the jacks pump and have it to the compartment under the bed. I will finish the output jack with a pair of #10's, so there should be no problem running my system on DC in the motorhome.
If these numbers are acceptable, then the Respironics M series is a good choice to run on 12VDC.
From the manuals, the AC maximum current is: 1.0 A for the machine and 1.2 A for the humidifier. At 120 VAC this would be 264 Watts. I am now all packed to go RVing this weekend, but I will measure the power and volt amperes used when I get setup tonight.
Dick Zeiter
Well-known member
Jeff,
I don't understand the need for the second inverter. Is it because the Xantrex does not supply 110v where you sleep and it was easier to install a second inverter than to rewire the system? Or did the Xantrex not handle the draw of the machine?
Clay L
Well-known member
judway said:
My plus M series humidifier requires ac and won't run on dc. It's about 2 1/2 years old - they must have changed since I got mine.
When I get a chance I am going to check with my DME and see if I can get a humidifier with the dc feature. Won't need the inverter then.
Dick Zeiter said:
Dick:
Because of all the chargers, DVR's, TVs etc we have plugged into our house inverter it never goes into power saving mode so we are using approx 20 amp/hr with nothing turned on. The total draw of the 400W is about 3 amp/hr so much less battery is required .
Ian
Well-known member
I have not been to the doc about my apnea for 2 years, maybe now that I am getting some of the other problems under control - at present I have dropped to zero meds - I can get back to looking at things that need an annual or even biannual checkup. I think my last sleep centre visit was on 05 or 06 so it would be probably worth a re-evaluation.Tom said:
Last night for example I was in bed around midnight - early but I am getting more 'normal' in my bedtimes. Around 5 the cats were playing up so it was time to let them out before they wrecked the place. After that I couldn't sleep, didn't feel warm although I was under blankets and quilt. I was back up about 5:30 and read e-books on the laptop till about 7:30. by then I was so zonked that I hit the bed again, until almost 11. And woke up so tired and worn out. Quite obviously the more serious apnea episodes have diminished but the lower level apnea is still continuing and I am not getting a decent sleep even though I am in bed and asleep.
I know how comfortably I have slept by the level of tinnitus noise, and today it is about beeper level, annoyingly loud, and that indicates to me that my neck and shoulders are under loads of discomfort and stress, I have not slept well even though I had a lot more hours at it.
For those wondering about how apnea might be considered dangerous, my situational awareness is quite diminished and my tolerance of driving would be low as well, so if today had been a day to get up and hit the road then I would definitely be a danger to myself and to other road users. Perhaps that's something that the RV Forum should be doing a focus on, Sleep Deprivation and Road Safety?
OP
OP
judway
Well-known member
I measured the 120 V input power to my M series CPAP system last night with my Kill-A-Watt power meter. It was between 50 and 60 Watts. This was with a pressure of 9cm and the humidifier set on 5. I don't know how to change the pressure. The humidifier used about 3/4 of the water in about 9 hours (it was set on 2).
Tom
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0.5A sounds pretty good Wayne, way less than the maximum numbers.
Dick Zeiter
Well-known member
judway said:
Can you get hose extensions so the unit can be moved to the bath area or a closet to reduce noise? That would also extend your travel range for overnight trips to the bathroom.
Clay L
Well-known member
judway said:
It can be done as follows:
" Hold down the <- -> buttons while plugging in the little power cord in the back, wait for 2 beeps release buttons. Then press the + key to enter setup mode, use the <- -> buttons to move to the next field, use the -/+ keys to decrease/increase values, when set press the On/Off button to exit Setup. "
Note that many sleep doctors will have a fit if you want to participate in your treatment. I am lucky in that mine doesn't have a problem with it. I have managed to drop my AHI from 4.6 to 3.3 by managing my pressure and the doc has confirmed the results with two overnight oxygen sat studies.
I emailed the provider manual to you. It has descriptions of the menu options. The DMEs in their infinite wisdom often disable some of them that provide interesting info.
All that being said I wouldn't recommend messing around with the pressure unless you have a good handle on what you are doing. Doing it in concert with the sleep doctor is best.
In my case since I full time I am rarely close to my DME and if he makes changes he just adds cost to the process so I just work with the doctor.
OP
OP
judway
Well-known member
Tom
The power supply which changes the AC input to 12VDC is probably a switching power supply which means its AC power in to DC power out is close to 90% efficient. This along with an efficient quasi-sinewave inverter allows very little power loss.
Dick
I probably could come close to the bathroom, but I would need about 15 or 16 feet of hose. I usually don't have to get up for the bathroom. good idea though.
Clay
Thanks for the email. Thanks for the information. My main interest at this time is to get power measurements at the full 20cm. I would then put it back to the prescribed 9 cm. The pressure seems to be about right and no reason to increase it or decrease it.
The power supply which changes the AC input to 12VDC is probably a switching power supply which means its AC power in to DC power out is close to 90% efficient. This along with an efficient quasi-sinewave inverter allows very little power loss.
Dick
Dick Zeiter said:
I probably could come close to the bathroom, but I would need about 15 or 16 feet of hose. I usually don't have to get up for the bathroom. good idea though.
Clay
Thanks for the email. Thanks for the information. My main interest at this time is to get power measurements at the full 20cm. I would then put it back to the prescribed 9 cm. The pressure seems to be about right and no reason to increase it or decrease it.
OP
OP
judway
Well-known member
I emailed service at Respironics asking for the range of voltage that could be safely applied to the REMstar M series CPAP machines. My concern was that the manual said not to start the engine when using the CPAP machine on the battery or the charging could destroy the charging system or the CPAP machine. The Humidifier is specified to be 11VDC min and 17VDC max.
Their first answer was that it was the standard 12VDC service and there was no specifications in the manual. I responded that I had read the manual and that was not a good answer and to please ask engineering or other source for the specifications and that the information was very important to me. I then received a second better answer.
The next reply was:
This will apply to your machine as well. The manual spec?s out 12 vdc. If you system drops under 11 volt your machine will simply shut down. Your 12 volt system will highly unlikely produce over 17 volts. You are not going to harm your machine. Thousands of people daily use the same setup that you are talking about. If you have the dc humidifier, the humidifier with a 6 inch pigtail, use the 7 amp fuse. If you are just powering the unit use the 3 amp fuse. Regards, Service
This fairly well spells out that the system will work fine using the battery and charging in the RV. I guess that you just have to be persistent.
I now have #8 and #10 wires to a new cigar lighter output near where I will use the CPAP machine. I fused it at 10Amp. I have not tried it yet.
Their first answer was that it was the standard 12VDC service and there was no specifications in the manual. I responded that I had read the manual and that was not a good answer and to please ask engineering or other source for the specifications and that the information was very important to me. I then received a second better answer.
The next reply was:
This will apply to your machine as well. The manual spec?s out 12 vdc. If you system drops under 11 volt your machine will simply shut down. Your 12 volt system will highly unlikely produce over 17 volts. You are not going to harm your machine. Thousands of people daily use the same setup that you are talking about. If you have the dc humidifier, the humidifier with a 6 inch pigtail, use the 7 amp fuse. If you are just powering the unit use the 3 amp fuse. Regards, Service
This fairly well spells out that the system will work fine using the battery and charging in the RV. I guess that you just have to be persistent.
I now have #8 and #10 wires to a new cigar lighter output near where I will use the CPAP machine. I fused it at 10Amp. I have not tried it yet.
Dick Zeiter
Well-known member
Still curious what length hose comes with most machines and if you can get or make hose extensions. 25' total hose would be desireable for me.
Dick Zeiter
Well-known member
>Get additional hose Here<
Thanks Lou
Thanks Lou
aromaspete
Member
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- Jun 7, 2009
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Hello--(a total newbie question)
I am a newbie, just having purchased a 2006 Tioga 29V. I have read the above comments, but am still puzzled.
I probably should do some more research, but decided to just ask.
I have a cpap with a built in humidifier. When looking at the coach I noted that there was a plug on my side of the bed with a little area where I could place my cpap.
I was assuming that as long as I was plugged into the electrical at a campground that I would have the power I needed to run this machine. Is this correct?
Now, when there is no electrical hookup or dry camping as they say, would I be able to use the aux battery? Is this where I would need one of those meters to make sure I don't get a brownout?
What about the generator or is the generator normally not run all night?
If this is too specific or I need to go to the library please let me know. I happened on this section and it raised all these questions.
Thanks in advance for your patience.
Pete
I am a newbie, just having purchased a 2006 Tioga 29V. I have read the above comments, but am still puzzled.
I probably should do some more research, but decided to just ask.
I have a cpap with a built in humidifier. When looking at the coach I noted that there was a plug on my side of the bed with a little area where I could place my cpap.
I was assuming that as long as I was plugged into the electrical at a campground that I would have the power I needed to run this machine. Is this correct?
Now, when there is no electrical hookup or dry camping as they say, would I be able to use the aux battery? Is this where I would need one of those meters to make sure I don't get a brownout?
What about the generator or is the generator normally not run all night?
If this is too specific or I need to go to the library please let me know. I happened on this section and it raised all these questions.
Thanks in advance for your patience.
Pete
