I guess I have been away from the trucking industry too long so I have to ask this as I really do not know.Our new Monaco uses Ultra low Sulfur fuel only and my question is . Is the Ultra Low Sulfur fuel all that is sold for highway use in the US and Canada now or do you have an option of choosing either Ultra Low Sulfur or Low Sulfur fuel when you fuel up. I was told by a long haul trucker yesterday that some plazas offer both so I am curious to hear from fellow RV'ers. thanks for your replies , Alan
Diesel Fuel
- Thread starter hpykmpr
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edjunior
Well-known member
As far as truck stops and such, I don't know for sure. But I accidently filled my tank (F-250) with the low-sulphur from a Conoco station in San Antonio, TX. I didn't even realize it until I tried to figure out why it was so inexpensive. I was told that that one tank would probably not hurt anything, but to change the fuel filters and blend with the proper diesel as much as possible. I had no issues with the truck, but look a little more carefully now.
Utclmjmpr
Well-known member
Most stations have switched over to the mandated ultra low and don't have the storage capacity for both.>>>Dan
denmarc
Well-known member
There are some non-road, marine, locomotive diesel fuel still available until 2014. I believe all "on-road" diesel (highway use) since 2010 in the US is Ultra Low. There may be some stations that may have pumps pumping the low sulphur for the equipment listed above. You may have to look at the pumps carefully to make sure you're getting the right stuff or the station isn't trying to make a little extra money off of those who don't look that close. Some see the word "diesel" and that is good enough for them.
I stopped and filled up on the way to Lubbock a while back and stopped because the good price caught my eye.
I was topping off when i noticed it said ( Low Sulfur ) Before i started the engine i got out my manual and it stated you can use as a last resort. Said it would stop up some emission component if used continually. No harm done, but i look now.
My Duramax a 2010 does not use the DEF. The exhaust smells like a propane forklifts exhaust and doesn't smoke a lick under any load. Not sure what the attraction is with loud smokey exhaust some guys run on their diesel trucks.
I was topping off when i noticed it said ( Low Sulfur ) Before i started the engine i got out my manual and it stated you can use as a last resort. Said it would stop up some emission component if used continually. No harm done, but i look now.
My Duramax a 2010 does not use the DEF. The exhaust smells like a propane forklifts exhaust and doesn't smoke a lick under any load. Not sure what the attraction is with loud smokey exhaust some guys run on their diesel trucks.
Rancher Will
Well-known member
Be sure you are using the corrrect, diesel fuel. Diesel fuel sold for Refer, agricultural, and off-road use has a special color. If you are caught with off-color diesel fuel in your tanks you are in violation of Federal Law and can be fined. Use the fuel that truckers use in their truck tanks, not the fuel in their refer tanks, when they use the non-highway fuel in their refers at a truck stop.
On our ranches, we a required to have separate storeage dispenser tanks for our Agricultural and on-road engines.
On our ranches, we a required to have separate storeage dispenser tanks for our Agricultural and on-road engines.
jje1960
Well-known member
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- Nov 11, 2007
- Posts
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I've never paid attention (will now) always expected that regular fuel stations green pumps were appropriate. I do realize there is fuel for agriculture and such, have not expected that to be on the main-stream pump islands. Will look more closely now. Our truck also is ready for B20, however have not to date even seen anything that say's that around the pumps.
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
Only ULSD diesel is legal for sale for use in on-highway engines in the USA. If you find a pump dispensing LSD, it is for agricultural, off-road or marine use and should be clearly l;abeled as such..
Lou Schneider
Site Team
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It's legal to use non-taxed fuel in over the road refrigerated trailers, which is why it may be on the pump island.
papachaz
Well-known member
they keep a close eye on the non taxed 'off road' fuel around my area here in NW GA. summer before last i was at the station, already filled up my diesel mower tanks, and had the yellow 5 gallon can filling it as well, and a guy walked over and wanted to know what i was gonna use the fuel in the can for. it was purely for backup, since the one station that sells off road fuel is a ways from me. when i told him that, he kinda acted like he didn't believe me and said 'i ought to check your truck tank'. i told him go ahead and make a fool of himself, cause the truck i was driving that day was gas.....he didn't smile, i didn't care LOL
but they do watch it here, i went in to pay and told the store owner what happened, he cussed and said he was gonna have to call and complain about them being out there harassing his customers again. he told me they had even fined him a couple weeks earlier cause someone had pumped off road fuel in their truck....i'd never heard of them fining the station owner, but it was something to do with the tanks not marked properly or not having the right warning signs
but they do watch it here, i went in to pay and told the store owner what happened, he cussed and said he was gonna have to call and complain about them being out there harassing his customers again. he told me they had even fined him a couple weeks earlier cause someone had pumped off road fuel in their truck....i'd never heard of them fining the station owner, but it was something to do with the tanks not marked properly or not having the right warning signs
Foto-n-T
Well-known member
I participate in a couple of different forums and one of the things that I have noticed is that there tend to be some "self proclaimed experts" on them, I am not one of these. I can and do make mistakes, but I also am able to learn from almost anybody. My wife refers to me as a "Jack of all trades, master of what interests me at the moment." So PLEASE take this in the spirit in which it is intended, which is to help, not to tell somebody how to do things.
I have worked for a retail/wholesale fuel distributor and oil company for quite a few years. Please allow me to clarify a few things regarding fuels.
Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) = up to 15ppm sulphur mandated by Big Brother starting in 2007
Low Sulphur Diesel (LSD) = up to 500ppm sulphur which is what we used to burn before ULSD, good stuff for an older engine.
Non Road, Locomotive Marine (NRLM) = up to 500ppm sulphur and it is ALWAYS dyed red at the refinery before it is loaded in a truck or rail car.
Red or Dyed Diesel (Off Road diesel sold at most gas stations) = Usually this is ULSD simply because it's easier to get. Once in a while a supplier will get their hands on some really good priced NRLM and use it in their dyed diesel tanks but seldom. Typically the vast majority of NRLM gets put into locomotives or diesel powered boats.
Let's begin with a few things about gasoline.
There IS a difference between "branded" and "unbranded" gasoline. "Branded" gasoline (Exxon, Shell, Conoco, etc.) is considered "Top Tier" fuel. As such it contains additives which the "unbranded" fuels do not. These additives have less to do with mpg than they do protecting your engine and injectors, if you drive an antique vehicle with a carborator use what ever is cheapest, if it burns and doesn't ping you're good to go. For most of you out there who have vehicles with fuel injectors, try to avoid using "unbranded" gasoline constantly. The additives in the "Top Tier" fuels aren't necessary each and every fill-up but you do want to try and buy "Top Tier" gasoline at least every fourth fill-up, those additives will actually save you more money in repairs than they will cost you in the price of the fuel eventually. This is especially true with the 10% Ethanol gasolines that are now being required in a lot of areas.
Differences in "Branded" vs "Unbranded" Diesel Fuels
Much like gasoline, "Branded" diesel fuel also contains additives but that's where the difference ends. The additives for instance that Exxon puts into their diesel fuel really don't make that much difference in the fuel. You are basically better off to use your own additives in diesel fuel, things like Stanodyne, Power Service or Howes are superior to the ones that the oil companies use. Diesel fuel is actually more regulated that gasoline by the government and no matter who made it, it's pretty much the same stuff. Feel free to buy the cheapest diesel fuel you can get your hands on and just use your own additives.
Modern ULSD loves to absorb water, although the water that is held in suspension won't hurt your engine as it simply goes right through with the fuel it causes problems in other ways. Anaerobic bacteria loves to call that water home and that bacteria doesn't fit through your fuel filters well, this leads to clogged fuel filters. The best way to avoid this is to buy your diesel fuel some place that sells a LOT of it, truck stops are excellent places for this. I will tell you that since "Branded" diesel fuel tends to be quite a bit more expensive than "Unbranded", the fuel tends to sell slower and sit in the tanks longer. This combined with the fact that stations like this seldom keep those under-ground tanks topped off means that moisture/water is a very real problem. If you're pumping fuel into your tank and find that it's moving VERY slow, this is an indication that the on-pump filter is dirty/clogged, hang up the nozzle and move on to another station. If that fuel is contaminating the filter on their pumps you definitely don't want it in your tank.
Red or Dyed Diesel
It is ILLEGAL to use Dyed Diesel in a vehicle operated on public roads!! Although the likelyhood of being caught if you don't own a farm are minimal, the consequences are huge. The rules are inforced by the IRS and if you're like most of us, the last thing you want is to have the IRS become your penpal. Having given this disclaimer.....
Dyed and Clear diesel are the same, absolutely NO difference other than the color. When we load fuel tankers at the refineries the Clear and the Dyed diesel often come out of the same load head. The difference is that when loading Dyed a red dye is injected every 50 gallons, other than that there is no difference. Earlier I stated that sometimes NRLM is substituted for ULSD Dyed, this normally only happens infrequently and will only become more infrequent as time goes on. Agricultural equipment manufacturers are eventually going to have to comply with emissions standards so it's becoming more rare to find NRLM being used as off-road diesel, there's too much risk of harming an engine designed to burn ULSD.
#1 Diesel vs. #2 Diesel
Typically #1 Diesel has been referred to as "Winter" diesel. What this means is that it has a lower "Cloud Point". In english this means that it will gel at a lower temperature than #2 Diesel will. Unfortunately since the introduction of ULSD this lower "Cloud Point" really doesn't mean much. Pretty much ALL ULSD and bio-diesel gels relatively easily when the temperature drops below 25 degrees and when it drops below zero not much with a diesel engine is going to move unless it has been left running and the fuel kept warm. #1 Diesel has a lower Cetane level and as such has less potential for produced energy, i.e. lower fuel mileage. Since #1 Diesel costs considerably more than #2 Diesel, that drop in fuel mileage is a double hit. Here again you are usually better off using your own additive on #2 Diesel to prevent gelling than you are to buy the more expensive #1 Diesel. One thing that I will recommend highly against though is the addition of gasoline or Diesel 911 as an additive. Chemically, adding gasoline to a light distillate such as diesel fuel is dangerous, although the likelyhood of an explosion is very low, it would be embarrasing trying to explain to your insurance company exactly how you blew yourself up. Diesel 911 is alcohol and can be safely poured into diesel fuel but it is extremely hard on injectors and pumps, use it only in emergencies, ergo the name 911.
I hope that at least some of the above information has been useful, I'm sure that I probably left something out. Thanks for allowing me to ramble on and empty my brain of some of its useless contents.
I have worked for a retail/wholesale fuel distributor and oil company for quite a few years. Please allow me to clarify a few things regarding fuels.
Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) = up to 15ppm sulphur mandated by Big Brother starting in 2007
Low Sulphur Diesel (LSD) = up to 500ppm sulphur which is what we used to burn before ULSD, good stuff for an older engine.
Non Road, Locomotive Marine (NRLM) = up to 500ppm sulphur and it is ALWAYS dyed red at the refinery before it is loaded in a truck or rail car.
Red or Dyed Diesel (Off Road diesel sold at most gas stations) = Usually this is ULSD simply because it's easier to get. Once in a while a supplier will get their hands on some really good priced NRLM and use it in their dyed diesel tanks but seldom. Typically the vast majority of NRLM gets put into locomotives or diesel powered boats.
Let's begin with a few things about gasoline.
There IS a difference between "branded" and "unbranded" gasoline. "Branded" gasoline (Exxon, Shell, Conoco, etc.) is considered "Top Tier" fuel. As such it contains additives which the "unbranded" fuels do not. These additives have less to do with mpg than they do protecting your engine and injectors, if you drive an antique vehicle with a carborator use what ever is cheapest, if it burns and doesn't ping you're good to go. For most of you out there who have vehicles with fuel injectors, try to avoid using "unbranded" gasoline constantly. The additives in the "Top Tier" fuels aren't necessary each and every fill-up but you do want to try and buy "Top Tier" gasoline at least every fourth fill-up, those additives will actually save you more money in repairs than they will cost you in the price of the fuel eventually. This is especially true with the 10% Ethanol gasolines that are now being required in a lot of areas.
Differences in "Branded" vs "Unbranded" Diesel Fuels
Much like gasoline, "Branded" diesel fuel also contains additives but that's where the difference ends. The additives for instance that Exxon puts into their diesel fuel really don't make that much difference in the fuel. You are basically better off to use your own additives in diesel fuel, things like Stanodyne, Power Service or Howes are superior to the ones that the oil companies use. Diesel fuel is actually more regulated that gasoline by the government and no matter who made it, it's pretty much the same stuff. Feel free to buy the cheapest diesel fuel you can get your hands on and just use your own additives.
Modern ULSD loves to absorb water, although the water that is held in suspension won't hurt your engine as it simply goes right through with the fuel it causes problems in other ways. Anaerobic bacteria loves to call that water home and that bacteria doesn't fit through your fuel filters well, this leads to clogged fuel filters. The best way to avoid this is to buy your diesel fuel some place that sells a LOT of it, truck stops are excellent places for this. I will tell you that since "Branded" diesel fuel tends to be quite a bit more expensive than "Unbranded", the fuel tends to sell slower and sit in the tanks longer. This combined with the fact that stations like this seldom keep those under-ground tanks topped off means that moisture/water is a very real problem. If you're pumping fuel into your tank and find that it's moving VERY slow, this is an indication that the on-pump filter is dirty/clogged, hang up the nozzle and move on to another station. If that fuel is contaminating the filter on their pumps you definitely don't want it in your tank.
Red or Dyed Diesel
It is ILLEGAL to use Dyed Diesel in a vehicle operated on public roads!! Although the likelyhood of being caught if you don't own a farm are minimal, the consequences are huge. The rules are inforced by the IRS and if you're like most of us, the last thing you want is to have the IRS become your penpal. Having given this disclaimer.....
Dyed and Clear diesel are the same, absolutely NO difference other than the color. When we load fuel tankers at the refineries the Clear and the Dyed diesel often come out of the same load head. The difference is that when loading Dyed a red dye is injected every 50 gallons, other than that there is no difference. Earlier I stated that sometimes NRLM is substituted for ULSD Dyed, this normally only happens infrequently and will only become more infrequent as time goes on. Agricultural equipment manufacturers are eventually going to have to comply with emissions standards so it's becoming more rare to find NRLM being used as off-road diesel, there's too much risk of harming an engine designed to burn ULSD.
#1 Diesel vs. #2 Diesel
Typically #1 Diesel has been referred to as "Winter" diesel. What this means is that it has a lower "Cloud Point". In english this means that it will gel at a lower temperature than #2 Diesel will. Unfortunately since the introduction of ULSD this lower "Cloud Point" really doesn't mean much. Pretty much ALL ULSD and bio-diesel gels relatively easily when the temperature drops below 25 degrees and when it drops below zero not much with a diesel engine is going to move unless it has been left running and the fuel kept warm. #1 Diesel has a lower Cetane level and as such has less potential for produced energy, i.e. lower fuel mileage. Since #1 Diesel costs considerably more than #2 Diesel, that drop in fuel mileage is a double hit. Here again you are usually better off using your own additive on #2 Diesel to prevent gelling than you are to buy the more expensive #1 Diesel. One thing that I will recommend highly against though is the addition of gasoline or Diesel 911 as an additive. Chemically, adding gasoline to a light distillate such as diesel fuel is dangerous, although the likelyhood of an explosion is very low, it would be embarrasing trying to explain to your insurance company exactly how you blew yourself up. Diesel 911 is alcohol and can be safely poured into diesel fuel but it is extremely hard on injectors and pumps, use it only in emergencies, ergo the name 911.
I hope that at least some of the above information has been useful, I'm sure that I probably left something out. Thanks for allowing me to ramble on and empty my brain of some of its useless contents.
jje1960
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
- Posts
- 1,556
Yea... and it was $4.29/gal here this morning... :'(
Mopar1973Man
Well-known member
Like here in Idaho...
Even if you find a pump labeled with LSD it no longer LSD it all ULSD regardless of the label on the pump.
Exactly right... They don't have seperate LSD and ULSD any longer... Both are ULSD one with a red dye package and one without...
Even if you find a pump labeled with LSD it no longer LSD it all ULSD regardless of the label on the pump.
Exactly right... They don't have seperate LSD and ULSD any longer... Both are ULSD one with a red dye package and one without...
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
The key point here is that the US refineries are only producing ULSD and a few are producing the NRLM mentioned above as well. There isn't any LSD for a fuel station to buy anymore. A fuel dispenser pump may not yet have been certified for ULSD and thus not yet be labeled for it, but the fuel that comes out of it is still gonna be ULSD.
Foto-n-T
Well-known member
Yup.
It's interesting to note though that the railroad lobby is still pretty strong thou as they don't have to use ULSD. Also most of the oil wells that I'm going to here in Texas are owned by the railroad, i.e. Burlington.
It's interesting to note though that the railroad lobby is still pretty strong thou as they don't have to use ULSD. Also most of the oil wells that I'm going to here in Texas are owned by the railroad, i.e. Burlington.
Lou Schneider
Site Team
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2005
- Posts
- 13,328
Trains move freight much more efficiently than trucks, so even with the older fuel they produce less air pollution per ton-mile of freight moved.
Rancher Will
Well-known member
Lou, efficiency of trains is continually improved by various methods by the Railroads.
This is also true with trucks, water transportation, Air Transportation, etc.
Based on data available through 2011, the Railroads in the United States, on a Ton Mile basis, Railroads transported 8 percent, trucks 18 percent, of all freight transported in the U.S. Water Transportation accounted for 42 percent of Ton Mile freight.
Railroads, and Water methods are most efficient for bulk commodities while Truck and Air are more efficient for lessor quantity cargos.
This is also true with trucks, water transportation, Air Transportation, etc.
Based on data available through 2011, the Railroads in the United States, on a Ton Mile basis, Railroads transported 8 percent, trucks 18 percent, of all freight transported in the U.S. Water Transportation accounted for 42 percent of Ton Mile freight.
Railroads, and Water methods are most efficient for bulk commodities while Truck and Air are more efficient for lessor quantity cargos.
Rancher Will
Well-known member
I cannot comment about the chemical makeup of Diesel Fuel that is dyed. I can tell you though, from our experience on our Ranches and our Trucking business, when our trucks are pulled in for a level 2 or 3 inspection, the color of the fuel in the tanks is checked. We are careful to have the correct color fuel in all of our tanks, both on and off road eauipment.
gdoug
Active member
This is an interesting thread. Can you tell me about bio-mass diesel?
Rancher Will
Well-known member
Gdoug, I am in the trucking business with ranch trucks and semi-trucks (also in ranching). For a while about three years ago it was common for some of the truck stops here in the Rocky Mountain region to sell Diesel Fuel that contained a certain amount of Bio-Diesel. I cannot say what percent Bio-Diesel since I was told varying amounts were in the fuel at various truck stops.
My drivers were reporting problems in their Cummins and Detroit Diesel engines losing power after refueling at the truck stops where Bio-Diesel was in the fuel. Finally, after one serious problem after one of my drivers fueled in Billings, Montana and completely lost power near KayCee, Wyoming, I stopped at Stewart-Stevenson Diesel Shop in Casper, Wyoming to discuss the problem. There I was shown a Manufacturer's letter to dealers recommending that a new, different fuel filter be substituted for the normal, original, fuel filters for their engines, when Bio-diesel was used.
I did buy cases of the new fuel filters and we outfitted all of our trucks with the new filters. The new filters seemed to help although, as the letter stated, the filtration was not as safe for the engines. Since then I believe that the fuel we have available now does not have Bio-Diesel added since the truck stops had suffered too many complaints. Also, my Ranch fuel supplyer has always informed my that there is no Bio-Diesel in the fuel delivered to our ranches. Since fuel now available to us lacks Bio-Diesel, we have gone back to the original, recommended fuel filters for our trucks over the past year and so far, with the Diesel fuel lacking Bio-Diesel available in this area we are having no more trouble.
One more thing. The relatively new Utra-Sulfer Free Diesel now on the market has a higher gell point than previousl Diesel Fuel. So we now add Power Service additive to all of our Diesel Engines all winter and not just as we used to, when the air temperature was lower. I buy drums of Power Service and my drivers carry a couple of gallons with them for use when refueling at truck stops during the winter.
My drivers were reporting problems in their Cummins and Detroit Diesel engines losing power after refueling at the truck stops where Bio-Diesel was in the fuel. Finally, after one serious problem after one of my drivers fueled in Billings, Montana and completely lost power near KayCee, Wyoming, I stopped at Stewart-Stevenson Diesel Shop in Casper, Wyoming to discuss the problem. There I was shown a Manufacturer's letter to dealers recommending that a new, different fuel filter be substituted for the normal, original, fuel filters for their engines, when Bio-diesel was used.
I did buy cases of the new fuel filters and we outfitted all of our trucks with the new filters. The new filters seemed to help although, as the letter stated, the filtration was not as safe for the engines. Since then I believe that the fuel we have available now does not have Bio-Diesel added since the truck stops had suffered too many complaints. Also, my Ranch fuel supplyer has always informed my that there is no Bio-Diesel in the fuel delivered to our ranches. Since fuel now available to us lacks Bio-Diesel, we have gone back to the original, recommended fuel filters for our trucks over the past year and so far, with the Diesel fuel lacking Bio-Diesel available in this area we are having no more trouble.
One more thing. The relatively new Utra-Sulfer Free Diesel now on the market has a higher gell point than previousl Diesel Fuel. So we now add Power Service additive to all of our Diesel Engines all winter and not just as we used to, when the air temperature was lower. I buy drums of Power Service and my drivers carry a couple of gallons with them for use when refueling at truck stops during the winter.
